Friday 2010-07-16 Dev. update and Discussions about the update ONLY!

[constant]

The screenshots are overall decent, I love the burning planes. ++

However, the specular affect on the planes is severely dissappointing, having the same flat-"plastic" look as in IL2, instead of metallic.

With the new technology, and computers moving to the 64bit bandwidth platform, 1c should not be afraid to move to bump-mapping + environment mapping (reflective) for a more authentically "metal" look.

Notice the minute details of the highlights in the planes construction, the shine on the underside of the wing and on the lowered flap. (Even the orange paint on the tail has a good shine to it!)



Now notice how the plane basically looks flat IL2:



Now look in SoW how well still have the same basic flat look, with what looks like a failed attempt to bump-mapping or a poor version of a bump mapped plane:

(image was too big to leave in a post..)

SoW Screenshot

Producing a properly skinned plane with bump-mapping and environment mapping (even realtime) is not a difficult task these days. You could even generate an environment map for all planes using one render of the environment, say from the players plane position, to a texture, since any plane that will have this reflectivness will need to be within some distance to be noticeable anyway, much too close to notice the lackof diffierence in environment mapping. Even in non-commercial 3D engines such as Irrlicht, this is possible in as few lines as 20, I believe. And second-rendering the environment (not other planes, no ground objects, just ground, water, sky..) should not be a big performance hit either. This second render could then also be used for other things like reflectiveness of the environment off the water.. Not that the water looks bad at all.

However there is probably just too much for these guys to fix to even bother attempting to reproduce that wonderful realistic look that planes have at this point in development. I am just sorely dissappointed they could not address this major peice of the sim as it has plagued the realism in il2 and sorely hampered my willingness to make skins for planes, especially those like the p51 who have had polished metal panels instead of paint.

[BigC208]

@Constant. A while a go I saw a SOW Spitfire that looked metalic in one of the older updates. I think reflective bump mapping is supported. Not that it would be usable in the BoB.

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by constant

The screenshots are overall decent, I love the burning planes. ++

However, the specular affect on the planes is severely dissappointing, having the same flat-"plastic" look as in IL2, instead of metallic.

With the new technology, and computers moving to the 64bit bandwidth platform, 1c should not be afraid to move to bump-mapping + environment mapping (reflective) for a more authentically "metal" look.

Notice the minute details of the highlights in the planes construction, the shine on the underside of the wing and on the lowered flap. (Even the orange paint on the tail has a good shine to it!)



Now notice how the plane basically looks flat IL2:



Now look in SoW how well still have the same basic flat look, with what looks like a failed attempt to bump-mapping or a poor version of a bump mapped plane:

(image was too big to leave in a post..)

SoW Screenshot

Producing a properly skinned plane with bump-mapping and environment mapping (even realtime) is not a difficult task these days. You could even generate an environment map for all planes using one render of the environment, say from the players plane position, to a texture, since any plane that will have this reflectivness will need to be within some distance to be noticeable anyway, much too close to notice the lackof diffierence in environment mapping. Even in non-commercial 3D engines such as Irrlicht, this is possible in as few lines as 20, I believe. And second-rendering the environment (not other planes, no ground objects, just ground, water, sky..) should not be a big performance hit either. This second render could then also be used for other things like reflectiveness of the environment off the water.. Not that the water looks bad at all.

However there is probably just too much for these guys to fix to even bother attempting to reproduce that wonderful realistic look that planes have at this point in development. I am just sorely dissappointed they could not address this major peice of the sim as it has plagued the realism in il2 and sorely hampered my willingness to make skins for planes, especially those like the p51 who have had polished metal panels instead of paint.

What planet are you on mate?? Most early WWII aircraft were supposed to have a flat look. They used non-reflective flat paint containing light scattering particles just for that purpose. I remember reading that the engine will support reflective finishes but there isn't much use for that in the BoB period is there?

I think Oleg and team have done an incredible job with the new aircraft - the flat paint looks better than any sim I've seen and the details are all there, right down to the subtle quilting effect of the rivet lines. I fail to see why you are comparing a fighter featuring glossy paint and areas of bare alloy to early war aircraft covered in flat matt paint?? And then you have the cheek to slag off the teams efforts based on that!

I'm tired of hearing this endless stream of drivel from the self proclaimed "experts". If you can do better then why don't you write your own sim?

Rant over

[Caveman]

Originally Posted by Sutts

What planet are you on mate?? Most early WWII aircraft were supposed to have a flat look. They used non-reflective flat paint containing light scattering particles just for that purpose. I remember reading that the engine will support reflective finishes but there isn't much use for that in the BoB period is there?

I think Oleg and team have done an incredible job with the new aircraft - the flat paint looks better than any sim I've seen and the details are all there, right down to the subtle quilting effect of the rivet lines. I fail to see why you are comparing a fighter featuring glossy paint and areas of bare alloy to early war aircraft covered in flat matt paint?? And then you have the cheek to slag off the teams efforts based on that!

I'm tired of hearing this endless stream of drivel from the self proclaimed "experts". If you can do better then why don't you write your own sim?

Rant over

Ditto. Planes look fantastic...

[BadAim]

+1 Or is it 2,3...er4? arg, me too..... Edit: and I'm even one post to far down.

[constant]

Originally Posted by Sutts

What planet are you on mate?? Most early WWII aircraft were supposed to have a flat look. They used non-reflective flat paint containing light scattering particles just for that purpose. I remember reading that the engine will support reflective finishes but there isn't much use for that in the BoB period is there?

I think Oleg and team have done an incredible job with the new aircraft - the flat paint looks better than any sim I've seen and the details are all there, right down to the subtle quilting effect of the rivet lines. I fail to see why you are comparing a fighter featuring glossy paint and areas of bare alloy to early war aircraft covered in flat matt paint?? And then you have the cheek to slag off the teams efforts based on that!

I'm tired of hearing this endless stream of drivel from the self proclaimed "experts". If you can do better then why don't you write your own sim?

Rant over

You're blowing that way out of porportion and really shouldn't go to insults to make your point, if you're mad, keep it to yourself mate, this is a forum for discussion of the game, not your thoughts on me. Why your post even still exists boggles me. But you have me so wrong. have to say I appreciate everything Oleg and his team are doing and have yet to do. I love IL2 and can't play anything else without feeling like I'm downgrading. But I should be able to freely discuss what I think of these updates, shouldn't I?

If you read the whole post you would read that I wrote I know matte-like paints were used for planes in WW2, it only makes sense. However, not all planes are matte painted, and beside that minor detail, matte paint STILL does not give off a flat-plastic look. airplane metal, painted or not, has a texture, unless polished. You are focusing on the paint which is not the whole focus of my post.

Anyway, if Oleg came to me and said "Implement this.." I would say: "I've been dreaming to!"

Aaannnnd, its okay.

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by constant

You're blowing that way out of porportion and really shouldn't go to insults to make your point, if you're mad, keep it to yourself mate, this is a forum for discussion of the game, not your thoughts on me. Why your post even still exists boggles me. But you have me so wrong. have to say I appreciate everything Oleg and his team are doing and have yet to do. I love IL2 and can't play anything else without feeling like I'm downgrading. But I should be able to freely discuss what I think of these updates, shouldn't I?

If you read the whole post you would read that I wrote I know matte-like paints were used for planes in WW2, it only makes sense. However, not all planes are matte painted, and beside that minor detail, matte paint STILL does not give off a flat-plastic look. airplane metal, painted or not, has a texture, unless polished. You are focusing on the paint which is not the whole focus of my post.

Anyway, if Oleg came to me and said "Implement this.." I would say: "I've been dreaming to!"

Aaannnnd, its okay.

It was a bit of knee jerk post and for that I apologise but it did rather sound like you were on the attack yourself. I'll try to stick to the facts this time.

The paints used at this time of the war were called non-specular and were specifically designed so as not to reflect light. You'll be hard pressed to find an example of a BoB era aircraft that doesn't use non reflective finishes I think.
The paint contains angular particles which scatter light and this produces quite a rough surface which attracts dirt. I've used the same stuff on my jeep and can testify that it has no sheen at all but is a complete pain to keep clean. The only way you'll get a sheen from it is when something is rubbed against the flat finish or oil/grease is applied and wiped away.

So...on well used aircraft you may see a slight sheen around panels which are handled regularly and in engine areas where oil spills etc. are rubbed away but most of the airframe should be very flat and non reflective.

I think part of the problem is that the vast majority of warbirds that are operating at airshows today use non-original finishes. These aircraft are investments and the correct non-specular paint attracts dirt and is more porous than the satin and gloss varieties so it doesn't protect the metal as effectively.

I'm not a great fan of the BoB Memorial Flight's Lancaster finish as it looks quite different to the dull/stained look of the wartime birds but at least the aircraft is well protected.

Sorry for my rant but I do feel strongly that Oleg has got the look of the non-specular early war finishes pretty much bang on.

A quote from a site discussing wartime finishes:
"Non-specular or flat finishes were desirable to the glossy, and matte finishes of the pre-war era aircraft."

A quote from a wartime specification:
"All paint used should be non-specular in nature. All parts and fittings should be dulled down, so as not to reflect light"

[Tempest123]

Originally Posted by constant

The screenshots are overall decent, I love the burning planes. ++

However, the specular affect on the planes is severely dissappointing, having the same flat-"plastic" look as in IL2, instead of metallic.

With the new technology, and computers moving to the 64bit bandwidth platform, 1c should not be afraid to move to bump-mapping + environment mapping (reflective) for a more authentically "metal" look.

Notice the minute details of the highlights in the planes construction, the shine on the underside of the wing and on the lowered flap. (Even the orange paint on the tail has a good shine to it!)



Now notice how the plane basically looks flat IL2:



Now look in SoW how well still have the same basic flat look, with what looks like a failed attempt to bump-mapping or a poor version of a bump mapped plane:

(image was too big to leave in a post..)

SoW Screenshot

Producing a properly skinned plane with bump-mapping and environment mapping (even realtime) is not a difficult task these days. You could even generate an environment map for all planes using one render of the environment, say from the players plane position, to a texture, since any plane that will have this reflectivness will need to be within some distance to be noticeable anyway, much too close to notice the lackof diffierence in environment mapping. Even in non-commercial 3D engines such as Irrlicht, this is possible in as few lines as 20, I believe. And second-rendering the environment (not other planes, no ground objects, just ground, water, sky..) should not be a big performance hit either. This second render could then also be used for other things like reflectiveness of the environment off the water.. Not that the water looks bad at all.

However there is probably just too much for these guys to fix to even bother attempting to reproduce that wonderful realistic look that planes have at this point in development. I am just sorely dissappointed they could not address this major peice of the sim as it has plagued the realism in il2 and sorely hampered my willingness to make skins for planes, especially those like the p51 who have had polished metal panels instead of paint.

Your right, except that spitfires, hurris and other planes at this time had matte finishes for camouflage. The bare metal polished planes you speak of came around after air superiority had been largely achieved over Europe in late 1944. This was when the the Allies became the hunters instead of the hunted, and camouflage was less necessary (but more so for german aircraft!). In 1940 the Luftwaffe was the most dangerous air force in the world, and had control over the skies in Europe. The British/allies camouflaged their aircraft to avoid detection by prowling Luftwaffe aircraft. BTW there was a screenshot of a bare metal/reflective spitfire a few months back just to demonstrate that this was possible in the sim.

[Tbag]

[PeterPanPan]

No no, this is the bad cop in Terminator 2, morphed into a Spitfire?