The Blue Sun Mod

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by Ninja2dan

And which "Zastava" weapons are you talking about? I can't really remember there being any in the game. All of their weapons were just clones of other weapon systems. The M76 was a modified clone of the SVD. The M70 series were just AK-47 clones. The M84 was cloned after the PK series. Why have the original weapon systems and then add duplicate copies with the only difference in game being the item name?

So, in your words the game should have only one handgun, only one SMG, only one shotgun, only one assault rifle, only one sniper rifle and only one MG, because IN YOUR WORDS they're all copies of each other and they're so similar to each other that it's not worth having diversity, guns of different makers.

If you feel that way about variants of the AK-47 I am curious what you think about the variants of the M-16 that are in this game and about the fact that there ARE multiple variants of the AK already in the game... Do you find them superfluous also? After all, the M4 is only a shortened M16, not to mention the Colt AR-15.

Why then does the vanilla game already, not to mention this mod, have so many weapons that are practically a copy of each other with only small variants? Why the mini UZI and micro UZI when there's already the regular UZI? Why AN-94 when there's already AK-47 and AK-74? Why RPK when there's already RPD? Why all the SKS copies? Why all the handguns that are so similar to each other and yet very few people actually keep using them after they get their hands on rifles and SMGs?

I'm sorry, but your argument is null and void, defeated by the game and the mod themselves.

Originally Posted by Ninja2dan

I have personally fired nearly every Zastava firearm in production as well as their "parent" firearm that they were cloned after. And from personal experience, they performed no better or worse. That was just a false rumor started by people from Yugoslavia, simply because it was "their firearm". Just like Americans claim that American cars are best, or Japanese claim that their electronics are best. People will almost always prefer a product made in their home country, and claim it as being better out of pride. Nothing against anyone from those countries, Yugoslavian firearms were not of poor quality. But I just never saw anything that would say they were better either.

PLEASE tell me you're just making a joke. Cause that would be the dumbest thing to EVER say.

I'm no weapons expert, BUT even I know that not only do weapons vary from one version to the next, but also individual weapons vary between each other. no weapon is exactly the same as the next...

Hell, even Jane's agree with that... a couple of decades ago they had a huge test, comparing the Kalashnikov to it's copies, variants, improved copies,... You know which were the two best? Zastava and the original AK-47.

Which means other AK copies were worse than these two, which means that AK copies not all are the same.

If you actually ever used all those AK copies you claim, you definitely wouldn't go around claiming all are the same, unless you're a total US patriot, with a flag pole in your front yard and your every second sentence would be "American stuff is the best and everything else is crap". Many US soldiers rather used the AKs they took from captured or dead enemies in Nam than use the M16, if they were allowed/able to.

My country's armament was a mix of Yugoslavian, Eastern European, Asian, Russian, etc. weapons (now we have that Belgian shit that breaks in the cold and the jams have to be fixed in an armory by a trained armorer; instead of easily in the field by the soldier himself as it was with Zastavas). In my own fireteam we had guns of different makers. I personally had a Zastava M70AB2 made in 1989, a couple of my mates had Romanian copies of AK, one's was newer than mine. We naturally compared our guns.

The difference between them was huge. Not only was the build quality of my gun better (like comparing a Mercedes to a Polski FIAT, everything was better from the metal to the furniture), it was more accurate, more powerful and more reliable.

To sum it up: no, AK and it's copies are not all the same and, YES, Yugoslavians DID have the right to claim our "AKs" were better than those of other countries.

[Ninja2dan]

First, I never said all "variants" were the same, nor do they perform the same. Aspects of a firearm such as barrel length, weight, lining, muzzle brake style, fittings, method of attachment, rifling twist, and even age/use can cause variants of the same style to differ in performance. Stocks, grips, mode of fire, and every functional component can also cause variances in performance data. What I'm talking about is when a weapon is a nearly 100% identical copy of another other than the name. Where every little part is interchangeable with the other. Where upon inspection, with markings removed, one person could not tell the difference between the two, then I really don't see the point in having them.

You are trying to compare an M4 with an M16, or an AK-47 with an AK-74? Those are completely different weapon systems, with different calibers, barrel lengths, or other major functional differences. There are no simple cosmetic differences between them.

If someone were to lead me to a table covered in different AK-47's, all fresh from the factory with identical handling and identical number of rounds put through them, but just made by a different factory, then nearly 99% of them will fire the same. Sure, different factories will have different tolerances that lead them to produce items that are slightly better or worse than the other, but their overall performance difference is going to be so slight that the average shooter will not be able to tell. I'm talking very minimal MOA changes, doesn't matter if it was made in Russia, China, Yugoslavia, or wherever.


You mention that Jane's made some comment, but you failed to note their conditions of the testing. How many rounds were fired from each weapon before their test? What type and level of maintenance had been performed on each weapon prior to the test? What type(s) of ammunition were they using in each weapon during the tests? All of those things can have performance differences on a firearm, and in order form a proper baseline you need to ensure that all weapons start with the exact same tolerances, and the test is done with the same ammunition from the same lot. Any variance in those standards will foul the results.


Yes, some weapons that I have used performed better than others of the same family. But never have I seen a weapon within the same tolerances that did so at a drastic level. Again, there might have been very minor differences in ballistics data, but soldiers aren't going to be picky about a weapon just because one of them is .5 MOA more accurate (excluding marksman weapons).

Having used AK's from all over the world, made by various manufacturers and with various levels of use/maintenance, I personally will stand by my point that the M70 series weapons I fired had no drastic performance differences over any of the others of equal tolerance. Note that I say "Equal Tolerance". I will not say that the Zastava rifles performed any more or less equal, because from my experience they performed at the same level as the other models.

I also never said that US-made weapons were any better than others. Personally, I tend to prefer H&K pistols over any other. Same with their SMG's. But different manufacturers produce different weapons with different features, and because of this I will often choose a weapon system based on the specific mission requirements. I might go with an M4, maybe I'll go with a G36, it all depends on the actual mission at hand. For me, country of origin means nothing. Specific features of a firearm and the reputation behind the manufacturer are my primary deciding factors.



I'm not going to turn this topic into an argument about which firearms are better, or which manufacturer is better, or which country is better. I know my level of experience and time handling the weapons, so I'm comfortable making statements based on my own opinions. If you want to shout out about how wonderful your country's rifles are, fine with me. I don't have to agree with you about it, you're free to make your own comments based on opinion. R@S is the one creating this mod, so he has final say in what goes and what stays. And since we are both "equals" in his eyes as players of the mod, he'll make his own decisions on which opinions to base his decisions on. If he adds copies, that's his choice.