Friday 2010-02-25 Development update:Interview by Grégory Lemasson/Discussion Thread

[Romanator21]

Originally Posted by zapatista

]for ex low on oxygen an experienced pilot notices before blacking out and does something about it...

Not true. You would not even notice that you were losing oxygen until it became far too late. I don't want to get into all the details right now, but do a quick search on hypoxia for more.

Besides the gauges for oxygen pressure and oxygen quantity, the pilot had to check his mask, and squeezed the tubing to make sure there was pressure and that no ice was forming.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by Romanator21

Not true. You would not even notice that you were losing oxygen until it became far too late. I don't want to get into all the details right now, but do a quick search on hypoxia for more.

Besides the gauges for oxygen pressure and oxygen quantity, the pilot had to check his mask, and squeezed the tubing to make sure there was pressure and that no ice was forming.

Then the task is to come up with a system that simulates SOME of the symptoms of it, in the same similar sneaky way. Then it is up to the observant virtual pilot to notice these symptoms before it is too late.

Seems like awesome fun. In that case, the 'already too late' symptom should come as a shock. Like a sudden blackout without any chance of acting on it (as the real pilot might simply be too affected by hypoxia to notice some of the more obvious-to-others signs, so they should not be blatantly presented to the virtual pilot to make an accurate judgement either).

If judgement especially is affected, what would be appropriate? Clicking the transmit button sporadically? Accidental discharge of weapons? Or wait, get this, having a friendly plane (spitfire for example) looks like a Nazi plane. Creeping at first, seeing swastika markings, but the shape yet looks like a spitfire. But then, even the shape. Other symptoms.. Perhaps instruments showing wrong numbers (reading north as south for example).

[Romanator21]

Making symptoms will surely be a challenge. It would have to depend on altitude firstly, but to make a creeping loss of consciousness is impossible unless our computers gradually injected carbon monoxide into the room.

For the purposes of a game, and to avoid possible lawsuits, it might be ok to just gradually dampen movement of the head and stick. This will be less noticeable during cruise when the inputs are more relaxed (but imagine being bounced at this point ). At some point the screen could go black, but by then there would be nothing you could do to wake up unless your plane was diving into thicker air. Whether or not you woke up before hitting the ground would also depend on many factors, but your chances are slim.

[MikkOwl]

But I want my nazi spitfires!

Seriously, imagine (if playing without icons, which is the way it should be) your wingman suddenly engaging you, while talking on the radio that he's on the enemy's six but lost sight of you. Could happen during an engagement with real enemies. Talk about realistic simulation! And you're like "That's me you're firing at! You fool! Stop!", and he's like "No no, it's a 109". Then you go "Check your oxygen right now!".

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

But I want my nazi spitfires!

Seriously, imagine (if playing without icons, which is the way it should be) your wingman suddenly engaging you, while talking on the radio that he's on the enemy's six but lost sight of you. Could happen during an engagement with real enemies. Talk about realistic simulation! And you're like "That's me you're firing at! You fool! Stop!", and he's like "No no, it's a 109". Then you go "Check your oxygen right now!".

Oxygen deprivation isn't necessary to make this authentic. Consider the 'Battle of Barking Creek': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Barking_Creek
Sadly, inexperience combined with 'knowing' what you are looking at is quite sufficient to bring about this sort of cock-up. Almost makes me feel less guilty about doing much the same thing on UKDed2. Almost...

[MikkOwl]

That is true, and yep, I am familiar with that tragedy. But some (many) of us know to not open fire unless the enemy is positively identified. If unsure, don't shoot. But we too could get affected when oxygen deprived.

My stats say I have killed one friendly aircraft online, but since I have only shot down two enemy fighters, the friendly must have been some freak random accident. Maybe a spawn collision or hit by a stray mk 108 30mm shell. Even the rear gunner could have hit a friendly far away that was already going down by mistake when spraying. The rules of FPS games, and Armed Assault, are like a reflex to me. Don't shoot until sure.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Romanator21

Not true. You would not even notice that you were losing oxygen until it became far too late.

complete bollocks !

your saying there that there is only 2 states possible for a ww2 pilot in relation to oxygen supply
a) perfectly normal and healthy
b) "far to late" (presumably instant near death state, or death itself)

which is obviously total nonsense

even holding your breath for 60 sec is possible (ie instant no further new oxygen), so even if the oxygen tube is shot out or the system has a major leak (while breathing normally), it would take btw 30 and 90 sec or (even longer) for the pilot to be completely disabled, it is NOT instant. and in a gradual reduction of oxygen in a non pressurized aircraft climbing this would take place over a number of minutes, the pilot gradually getting a bit disoriented, trouble concentrating on his tasks, be more clumsy with controls and switches (fine motor control), getting a headache etc. blurring of vision and then blacking out is really the final phase.

my point is this:
1) in both those situations in real life you would get some physical indications from your surrounding, and the physical senses of your body. a trained and experienced pilot would also recognize those earlier then joe average from the street.
2) sitting behind a monitor in your living room is a very dulled experience compared to being in the cockpit and experiencing it, are you really going to argue that point ?

so to SIMULATE the experience of the pilot it would be helpfull to get some additional clues, and this can take many forms and is really what the discussion should be about
1) simple "oxygen status" msg flash on screen ?
2) having the oxygen dial "light up brighter" so that with an initial glance at your instruments you get increased awareness of the important one
3) etc ... etc... many ways to do it

take another example, wasnt the fuel tank right in front of the pilot in some of those aircraft ? damage to the tank could leak fuel into the cockpit, the pilot feels it on his face, sees the liquid maybe, it stings his eyes, he smells the fuel etc... and no not all those events meant that the pilot was instantly on fire either, so it is not about modeling the flames as an on/off status.
- so how do you "model" the pilot smelling the fuel in the cockpit ? if there was lots of fuel splashing about in the cockpit onto the pilot, a strong smell of fuel, and the pilot was in a dodgy dogfight situation, he might well decide to bail out rather then wait for the next spark to set him on fire. even if he stayed in the pit and flew on, he would make sure his goggles were on and he was ready to quickly bail out

again, some kind of visual msg or other feedback is needed to get that sensory information and SIMULATE the information the real pilot would have at that time, sitting behind your monitor just doesnt provide it.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by zapatista

your saying there that there is only 2 states possible for a ww2 pilot in relation to oxygen supply
a) perfectly normal and healthy
b) "far to late" (presumably instant near death state, or death itself)

I think he means that the signs are difficult to notice at all, in particular (and this is important) because the judgement is impaired, like with drunk people. Therefore there are signs, but when very quickly stepping into these conditions, the signs are probably easier for others to notice than for yourself. People with 'altitude poisoning' can do crazy things and don't realize what is really happening. But yes, I agree with you that there's not only two states, there's other things that we could and should notice. But these should not be so obviously apparent when just cruising that we always see directly what is happening.

Originally Posted by zapatista

so how do you "model" the pilot smelling the fuel in the cockpit ?

Try to think beyond just 'smell'. How do humans react to strong fumes? Especially in your example of it splashing around.

If I was a designer for Maddox Games, I would:

1. Make the eyes mist (vision become foggy).
2. Coughing (sound effect & movement of the viewscreen matching the cough attacks).

And more things maybe, depending on what was appropriate. I think you will agree that these two points would be clearly noticable, even in a dogfight, just like it would be clearly noticable to the real pilot. It is true that we still don't smell it, and that is a disadvantage. But the other multiple signs are clear for anyone to understand that nasty fumes are in the air.

EDIT: (Sorry for editing, I just realized I had more I could reply to)

so to SIMULATE the experience of the pilot it would be helpfull to get some additional clues, and this can take many forms and is really what the discussion should be about
1) simple "oxygen status" msg flash on screen ?
2) having the oxygen dial "light up brighter" so that with an initial glance at your instruments you get increased awareness of the important one
3) etc ... etc... many ways to do it

Good ideas. The on-screen message is appropriate if other proper signs are not there, or the user does not have good enough hardware to see the signs/instruments properly. Or if they just feel like having it obvious because of whatever reason.

The oxygen dial lighting up brighter is a great idea if the user does not quite have the hardware (you know, like need to zoom a lot to be able to read the instruments, while others with bigger better monitors and graphics cards can see it without much zoom), but still doesn't want the helmet mounted display message telling him that there is an O2 problem. Because then he can just look casually at the meter, if TRYING to check it, and see easier that it is not normal. Really great idea actually. I support it 100% as an option.

[AndyJWest]

There is another solution here, that also solves the DRM issue discussed in another thread. SoW:BoB shold be sold with a stink-dongle that releases the appropriate aroma during flight - a scent of hops and new-mown hay as your Hurri lifts out of Biggin Hill, acompanied by the aroma of 100-octane fuel leaking slightly into the cockpit. Suddenly, a scent of saurcraut and jackboot-polish alerts you to danger. You notice the metallic tang of 20mm cannon shells as they whizz by, but also notice the undertone of inexperienced youth and a distinct odour of wishing to be back home in Dusseldorf. Before you know it the threat has gone, leaving nothing but the scent of a half-empty fuel tank and the vaguest hint of Hermann Goering's aftershave.

Flying back to base you notice the pleasant aroma of new-mown-hay (again), and a vague hint of singed Dornier from somewhere along the coast. Turning into finals, your senses are assaulted by the overwhelming smell of bacon. Yum, lunchtime!...

[Skoshi Tiger]

[QUOTE=AndyJWest;146586]You notice the metallic tang of 20mm cannon shells as they whizz by,
QUOTE]

Closely followed by the smell of soiled underwear !)

Cheers!