Logitech G940

[MikkOwl]

not [..] force feedback motor effects. The electric motors are also used to provide stick centering. The G940 centering motors don't cut in for some degrees of movement around the center. The stick is very floppy around the center until the motors cut in to provide resistance at what ever level you set. The stick is still very precise as there is no movement deadzone, just a return to center force deadzone that is far too large.

It is correct that the zone is too large in the current/old games. I posted some of my experiments measuring the differences in the zones depending on settings in the previous post. In IL-2 (and some ancient test programs) the zone is maybe 5x5 cm or so and certainly feels unnaturally large. But the stick seems to be able to provide a center more similar to maybe 2x2cm, and at any angle. It's just that this ability is not used by IL-2 or even the force feedback test programs using the old Force feedback API.

For unloaded steady shots, this force zone does not matter. While maneuvering however, it is harder than otherwise. Especially that it comes on so suddenly after a relatively large force free area.

[ruxtmp]

MIkkOwl
Do you have large jumps of throttle percent in IL2 when using the throttle? I cannot seem to get any better than 3-4% resolution. Basically moving the throttle changes the IL2 throttle in 3-4% increments. It is worse (+/- 8%) when going from one direction to another (ie low to high).

I am very close to returning the unit as it is not very sensitive in any axis with the throttle being the worst. My unmodded Cougar had better resolution and repeatability than the G940. I am hoping it is a driver issue but reading some forums it appears that the actual hardware may be the cause, I leave that to Logitech. For now I have reverted back to my X52 while I wait for info on returning the unit for a refund or exchanging it if it is truely faulty.

[MikkOwl]

Regarding the throttle accuracy in IL-2:
I'm not sure it jumps 4% when only going in one direction. I will make note of this within a few hours when I launch it again. Actually screw that, I'll go check right now (edit confi.ini, change nohudlog=1 to 0. Test test. Check DxTweak2 for some more hardcore numbers).

Findings:

IL-2's full range of possible throttle positions is 0% to 120% - 120 or 121 steps.

The G940 potentiometers, when calibrated, has an output that allows for 130 to 150 different positions. There's a few millimeters between each 'position', and one must move extremely slow and careful to move it that little.

In game, the throttle setting (in numbers on the hud) as well as the physical throttle stick rendered in 3D, moved in 2% increments. every 5th or 8th step or something like that was a 1% increment.

Other axises, like the R1 and R2 on the throttle, has a wider number of possible positions. The Saitek Quadrant levers have 256 possible positions, and they track accurately in DxTweak2. Testing the most accurate of them, the Saitek Quadrant levers, showed that it would still frequently move in 2% steps, but that 1% steps occured more frequently.

Binding the stick itself, with sensitivity to the lowest (Meaning that big movement produces the least output), and moving it near the center, was the only way to get IL-2 to reliably move in 1% increments.

My conclusion is that there is something wonky about the way IL-2 reads the axis positions. IL-2 has a max of 121 positions and yet when it reads an axis with 256 positions (more than two per 'position') it does not translate accurately. The G940 throttle axises, with 130-150 positions, is more than one throttle position for each of the 121 possible throttle positions in IL-2.

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The reversing direction bug makes it jump 4% of the throttle in IL-2 for the G940. As I mentioned before, I saw that LogitechMark stated that the Logitech/Wingman team knew about this bug (firmware I think) and they are working to fix it in the next software update.

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For myself, 2% motion of IL-2 throttle is how it has always been like no matter the hardware (more or less). I turn off the unimmersive HUD log so I don't see those numbers when flying. Instead I look at the throttle position in the cockpit (it sometimes has markings indicating what use a position has), and I read the instruments. Speed, RPM, prop pitch settings.

As you mention getting double the size of the 'steps' in IL-2, I recommend calibrating the throttle unit, then checking out the readings from DxTweak2. Check the "RAW" readings in the lowest and the highest positions of the throttle, and then subtract the lower reading from the higher. The number you get is the number of positions each throttle axis can be registered as being in. Compare that to the numbers I posted above.

[ruxtmp]

MikkOwl
I have only been ever able to get 0-110% range in the HUD in IL2. After recalibrating the throttle numerous times I can get the unit to increment in 2% jumps in one direction most of the time. Every now and then it will bounce 3-4%. Changing directions is still anywhere from 5-10%.

My new problem is with programming key presses to the buttons. I tried to assign keys to the throttle and stick to center Naturalpoint (TRACKIR) and some push to talk keys for Teamspeak. No matter what I do keycommands outside of the IL2 program do not respond. Pressing the assigned key on my keyboard executes the command so I know it is not the two programs.

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Hi MikkOwl, I'd just like to say congrats on a thorough and concise write up of the G940 which I have owned for a few weeks now, and I am in almost complete agreement with your assessment.....to which you had obviously given a lot of thought. Bravo

I'll confess I disliked it initially but it has 'grown' on me and I am now very happy with it! Interestingly my settings were very similar to yours, but tweaking is ongoing depending on game. Thank you also for the explanations RE: dampening etc (which really should be provided by Logitech anyway, a fact I noted in my feedback report to them).

Again, excellent work I took the small liberty of posting a link here http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...2913942/3.html to your musings on the Simhq forum (not sure if you are a member?) as it is very informative and well written (I'm 'Biggles07' over there) Hope you don't mind, but I would think not lol.
(PS I may well pick your brains at a later date regarding SDK tailoring of forces if you don't mind, as you seem to be clued up in this area ).

Thanks again!

[335th_GRSwaty]

ruxtmp

Teamspeak and track ir (center & on/off) works only in game.

[13th Hsqn Protos]

Originally Posted by ruxtmp

My new problem is with programming key presses to the buttons. I tried to assign keys to the throttle and stick to center Naturalpoint (TRACKIR) and some push to talk keys for Teamspeak. No matter what I do keycommands outside of the IL2 program do not respond. Pressing the assigned key on my keyboard executes the command so I know it is not the two programs.

If you want the TS key to work it is best to make the profile persistent. That worked for me - and it works ingame or out.

Fkeys don't seem to work in the current software version. Try making it another key for Track Ir.

[Chivas]

F keys worked for me....I used the F11 for teamspeak, and F12 for Track IR centering

[MikkOwl]

And thus spoke ruxtmp:
After recalibrating the throttle numerous times I can get the unit to increment in 2% jumps in one direction most of the time. Every now and then it will bounce 3-4%. Changing directions is still anywhere from 5-10%.

Exactly as for me then. Did you note though that my trials with other devices had a very similar result (except the reversal jump bug)? IL-2 seems to be to blame for outright lax reading of the axis positions. Possibly some old DirectX Input issue, I don't know.

I tried to assign keys to the throttle and stick to center Naturalpoint (TRACKIR) and some push to talk keys for Teamspeak. No matter what I do keycommands outside of the IL2 program do not respond. Pressing the assigned key on my keyboard executes the command so I know it is not the two programs.

Mine work everywhere - but I did set my Logitech Profiler to "apply persistant profile". If one has the auto-detect game settings it will not apply that profile when the game isn't in focus, I imagine.

Speaking of IL2 with G940 and TrackIr5 - I keep trying to optimize the way the view controls are set up. Current revision is programmed to make use of the mid-stick thumb button "S4" - clicking it toggles between wide fov and 'realisticformymonitorsize' fov, while holding it sets maximum zoom and the precision mode in TiR5 - until released, when it reverts to whatever fov mode it was in before. Seems to work fairly well. The lower castle hat on the stick (push right) is TiR center. I found that it's very easy to push the hat to the right from the left with the thumb (coming from the red thumb "FIRE" button), not having to place the thumb inside the hat. Pinky button for radio transmit (just like the real world Fw 190, yum!). One of the backside throttle buttons toggles between gunsight position and 6DoF position. Comes in handy for certain messed up models. And all this of course with autohotkey. I'll mention more about it at the end of the post.

RCAF_FB_Orville wroteth:
Hi MikkOwl, I'd just like to say congrats on a thorough and concise write up of the G940 which I have owned for a few weeks now, and I am in almost complete agreement with your assessment.....to which you had obviously given a lot of thought. Bravo

I'll confess I disliked it initially but it has 'grown' on me and I am now very happy with it! Interestingly my settings were very similar to yours, but tweaking is ongoing depending on game. Thank you also for the explanations RE: dampening etc (which really should be provided by Logitech anyway, a fact I noted in my feedback report to them).

Again, excellent work I took the small liberty of posting a link here http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...2913942/3.html to your musings on the Simhq forum (not sure if you are a member?) as it is very informative and well written (I'm 'Biggles07' over there) Hope you don't mind, but I would think not lol.
(PS I may well pick your brains at a later date regarding SDK tailoring of forces if you don't mind, as you seem to be clued up in this area ).

Thanks again!

Jolly good I say! I knew about much of what you just told me already, by finding the post you made in the RoF thread about changing your mind about the G940 and linking to my posts here, and this was several days ago. I read more on SimHQ after that and I signed up yesterday, in no small part due to finding your post through google. I am going to look up that link after I finish posting this. EDIT: That's the one post I found several days ago

Logitech did have some explanations for what the force feedback settings are, but I recall that none satisfyingly explained it until I dug around deeper, especially with some force feedback testing programs + a few manuals for coders of devices (one was for some FF for handicapped people article). I think one of the more important things is finding out by experimentation how spring forces work in IL-2 - that the range utilized is limited to about 130km/h (no resistance) to 300km/h (max resistance). Hopefully Storm of War will have a much larger range and tons of other improvements.

Happy to share my findings with others. I get pleasure from helping (so it's a selfish motivation when it comes down to it. Though that's why we do just about everything we do).

SDK tailoring of forces though? Are you talking about the .ffe files in the IL2 force feedback folder? There wasn't that much to change there to be honest, mainly just tweaking the RPM and more importantly, power, of the gun effects seperately from all the others. Could be useful though. If I remember correctly you rely more on FF due to having impaired hearing? If so tweaking it right would have more significance than for the average user. I have the opposite problem, hypersensitive hearing (not that I have better hearing than others, I just experience things as louder and distressful). Use a lot of earplugs, sealed headphones and even got hearing protectors that I often wear just to shut up the neighbors and traffic.

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Throttle LED tips:

If you look in your logitech profiler folder, there's a LedSDK app that can be run. You can move this executable anywhere convenient. When run, it allows you to set the colors you want for each button. As far as I can tell, the throttle permanently remembers the settings until you open the program and change them again at some later point. It helps to categorize the functions a bit by how critical they are or what systems are affected. My "Master Arm" button is red, for example. Engine ignition 1 and 2 are red also.

When you feel like making things dark for sleep or whatever, you can go into the game controllers in the control panel, open up the throttle device, and click 'advanced' or whatever it is. There you will find a master light switch that turn off all the lights. Repeat to turn them on again (they'll resume the colors you programmed earlier). I hope Storm of War will have LED light support directly.

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Autohotkey stuff:

I think people out there still need convincing, so here are a few examples. It is awesome for the G940 (and anything else for that matter).

Example 1: having a "Master Arm" switch (G940 shipped with such a cutout paper thingy that I put under one of the throttle buttons):

The script is set up along these lines:
If the masterarm button is pressed, then toggle 'safety off' or 'safety on' inside the script.
Bind the weapon 1, 2, 3 and 4 to numpad 1 2 3 4.
When script senses that a stick button is pressed, it looks if safety is on or off, and if it's off, it pushes the numpad key to fire weapon 1, etc. If it's on, nothing happens.

It's very basic yet functional and useful. I've had 'accidents' happen, mostly inadvertant firing of a cannon or MG; but also heavier stuff. Ever drop a bomb during take off? Ooops.

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Bailing out realism:

Make you stay in cockpit view when initiating the bailing out sequence, and even play a sound file that has the sound of seatbelts being detached, windscreen being jettisoned and louuud wind noise.

It just checks if your bail-out button (a stick button perhaps?) is pushed. If it is, it sends "F1" right away to bring you instantly back to cockpit view, and also starts playing the sound file specified. I made one of my own and it works quite nicely, fitting what is seen.

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No more mouse map crap:

Instead of having to use the mouse (letting go of the G940 stick tends to not have good effects) and click the right mouse button continously inside the map window to go through all the zoom levels (what a pest), and using left click and drag to move the map, have one zoom in button, one zoom out button, and use a hat to scroll around on the map. No mouse involved at all.

This one was very tricky to cook up. Mouse coordinates is nearly completely unsupported in IL2, and figuring out how to cause two buttons to send the right amount of rightmouseclicks to either zoom one step in or out depending on the button pressed, but it works . I don't think I can explain it in a short enough text, and in a useful way here.

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Make buttons make sounds when pressed (as well as released):

Super easy. Just tell the script to play a soundfile of our choice when a certain button is pressed (and another when released if one so wishes). Turning off the HUDLOG means there's no indicators when WEP is on, when fuel tank is jettisoned, navlights are triggered, engine key bla bla. There's usually not a single sound effect from inside the game to let you know that you did something. Adding a sound effect makes you hear that you did indeed press the button. In my case, I've made it keep track of if wep is on or off, if the safety is on or off, and it plays a different sound file to let me know that WEP Is turned ON for example. In both cases I used a little alarm buzz of the same kind that the Bf 109 uses (sort of) when deplying flaps without the gear down. Knowing that WEP is on or off or the master arm switch, not to mention the rather critical tail wheel lock function, is important, and this is one way to deal with it when getting rid of the HUD Log.

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Any kind of view controls one can imagine:

I have mentioned it before. Tell it to send the max zoom + smooth headtracking button when a certain button is pressed, then upon release, send max fov or medium, or anything one wants. Can cycle through things, make things activate when held longer than a certain time, two buttons held together, there's no limit.

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Radio commands through single key:

Can do this with the Logitech Profiler as well. Just look up what keys need be pushed in what order to send a certain command. Tab + 7 = "help me anyone!". Tab + 8 + 2 = request vector to home base. And so it goes.

I have one such similar macro set up to toggle that 'zoom when moving forward with TrackIR' off, as I prefer to do my zooming with keys instead. It requires pushing a numpad * key and then numpad 1 together.

Other small things is having right + left mouse button = Escape. Right mouse + scroll wheel up/down is alt-tab (no need to reach for the keyboard anymore).

Another useful thing is binding the Trim 3 knob to volume control. Yes, instant volume 'trim', accurately and easily. In this one tells autohotkey to scan the trim3 axis and then to convert the position of it onto the system volume setting something like 10 times a second.