Unlikely Matchups: Mosquito VS. P-38

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by Doktorwzzerd

I don't know my friend, the Lightning had extremely low wing loading, I think it could probably out turn a Mosquito. Also the P-38 was extensively used as dedicated fighter with an impressive record to match (America's 1st and 2nd highest scoring Aces both flew it exclusively), whereas the Mosquito was used primarily as a hit and run attack aircraft. I actually think this argument might be the opposite of what you suggest; the Mosquito might well have the highest speed with the Lightning being the better turner. Also the Lightning had better armor, being metal, than the Wooden Wonder.

I'd pick the Lightning every time. See the episode of Dogfights that features Robin Olds to see what it could do in straight dogfights.

Yes, but like Robin Olds said in a book about his life in WW2, the P-38 was a good plane; under the hands of a good pilot. So it depends. The P-38 was performed better in the Pacific, than it actually did in Europe. And that's why most of the P-38s were shipped over there, rather than keep many of them in Europe. So once again, it depends.

[Doktorwzzerd]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Yes, but like Robin Olds said in a book about his life in WW2, the P-38 was a good plane; under the hands of a good pilot. So it depends. The P-38 was performed better in the Pacific, than it actually did in Europe. And that's why most of the P-38s were shipped over there, rather than keep many of them in Europe. So once again, it depends.

Ha, well pilot performance being equal, the Mosquito just wasn't designed to be a fighter, she was designed as a light bomber, whereas the P-38 was intended from the beginning to be a fighter. I mean just look at them, its like proposing a dogfight between a F-111 and an F-15.

Was the P-38 really used in the Pacific more extensively than the the ETO due to performance, or was it due to the USAAF's need for an aircraft with extreme range in the Pacific? Not having aircraft carriers, the P-38 is the only American aircraft, prior to the P-51D, that could get the job done in the Pacific for the USAAF.

[xNikex]

What if a B-17 crossed paths with an He-111 and they wanted to kill each other?
It would be like a naval battle in the sky. All the guns firing to one side while they circle around each other.

[Rhah]

Originally Posted by xNikex

What if a B-17 crossed paths with an He-111 and they wanted to kill each other?
It would be like a naval battle in the sky. All the guns firing to one side while they circle around each other.

That would actually be seriously cool to see..... what would be even cooler would be a squadron of both types of bomber, in a massive brawl.

My money would have to be on the B17's though... all those .50 cal's would tear the Heinkel's to shreds

[mattmanB182]

Another thing to think about possibly: Being that the Mosquio is all would, would it be able to hold together as well as the Lightning in turns? Or would it be too much stress on the airframe?




Disclaimer: Although I have national pride, most of my favorte planes are NOT American. So I am not as biased as some may think.

[Robotic Pope]

Originally Posted by Doktorwzzerd

Ha, well pilot performance being equal, the Mosquito just wasn't designed to be a fighter, she was designed as a light bomber, whereas the P-38 was intended from the beginning to be a fighter. I mean just look at them, its like proposing a dogfight between a F-111 and an F-15.

Exactly my thought. The mosquito was primarily a bomber. It was only because it was such a great plane that it could be modified to do other jobs (night fighter and invader). It was never used as a dogfighter though so it would probably lose against the P-38. The DeHaviland Hornet on the other hand WAS designed and built for the same role as the p-38 (long range fighter bomber). Based on the Mosquito but with a heavily redesigned plywood fuselage including a single seat cockpit, new wood/metal wings and four 20mm cannons. The Hornet was lighter, more manuvurable and with a top speed of almost 500mph was a lot faster than the Mosquito.

The Hornet V Lightning would be a much fairer comparison, and the Hornet would win by a large margin. Only problem is that the hornet was built in 1944 and WWII ended before the first planes could be delivered to the RAF.

[Voyager]

Well, wandering over to Il-2 Compare, the P-38L Late shows a best turn time of ~25 seconds (with flaps), while the Mosquito FB MkVI can only manage 31 seconds (no improvement with flaps). The P-38 has a 20-30km/h speed advantage up to 4km, at which point its advantage increases rapidly, and it climbs better throughout hte entire flight regime.

Basically, the Mosquito has excellent performance for a medium bomber, but the P-38 is a purpose built fighter.

On the P-38 in Europe, to my understanding the P-38 had issues with icing, and dives, and as both cold, and diving opponents were prevalent in Europe, it wasn't very well suited to conditions there. Most of the 109 and 190 variants have comparable or better performance in most respects, and because the elevators stopped responding at high speed, if the P-38 got the upper hand, the German fighters could just dive to disengage.

In the Pacific theater, the Japanese fighters tended to rely more on agility, so the Lightning could play to its strengths more, and the nature of the theater demanded much longer ranges than the ETO, which was another major P-38 strength.

On match ups I would like to see, P-47N vrs Yak-3P. The P-47N has a 2,800hp engine, and was more agile than the previous Thunderbolts, due to it's enlarged, clipped wings, but the Yak-3P will turn loops around it if it lets itself get caught in a furball, and will bite hard with 3xB-20's. What makes it more fun is, until about 4km, the Thunderbolt would have only a small edge in max speed. It will be a real battle over who can control the energy fight.

Even a squadron level fight of that would be something to see: the Yak's cannons mean you can't just "drag and bag" the way you can against Zeros, or (to a lesser extent) 109's, but the Yak's construction isn't enough that it can shrug off a hail of heavy MG either.

[Swagger7]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Well, wandering over to Il-2 Compare, the P-38L Late shows a best turn time of ~25 seconds (with flaps), while the Mosquito FB MkVI can only manage 31 seconds (no improvement with flaps). The P-38 has a 20-30km/h speed advantage up to 4km, at which point its advantage increases rapidly, and it climbs better throughout hte entire flight regime.

Basically, the Mosquito has excellent performance for a medium bomber, but the P-38 is a purpose built fighter.

On the P-38 in Europe, to my understanding the P-38 had issues with icing, and dives, and as both cold, and diving opponents were prevalent in Europe, it wasn't very well suited to conditions there. Most of the 109 and 190 variants have comparable or better performance in most respects, and because the elevators stopped responding at high speed, if the P-38 got the upper hand, the German fighters could just dive to disengage.

In the Pacific theater, the Japanese fighters tended to rely more on agility, so the Lightning could play to its strengths more, and the nature of the theater demanded much longer ranges than the ETO, which was another major P-38 strength.

On match ups I would like to see, P-47N vrs Yak-3P. The P-47N has a 2,800hp engine, and was more agile than the previous Thunderbolts, due to it's enlarged, clipped wings, but the Yak-3P will turn loops around it if it lets itself get caught in a furball, and will bite hard with 3xB-20's. What makes it more fun is, until about 4km, the Thunderbolt would have only a small edge in max speed. It will be a real battle over who can control the energy fight.

Even a squadron level fight of that would be something to see: the Yak's cannons mean you can't just "drag and bag" the way you can against Zeros, or (to a lesser extent) 109's, but the Yak's construction isn't enough that it can shrug off a hail of heavy MG either.

Best analysis so far, in my opinion.

[ButcherBird]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Well, wandering over to Il-2 Compare, the P-38L Late shows a best turn time of ~25 seconds (with flaps), while the Mosquito FB MkVI can only manage 31 seconds (no improvement with flaps). The P-38 has a 20-30km/h speed advantage up to 4km, at which point its advantage increases rapidly, and it climbs better throughout hte entire flight regime.

Basically, the Mosquito has excellent performance for a medium bomber, but the P-38 is a purpose built fighter.

On the P-38 in Europe, to my understanding the P-38 had issues with icing, and dives, and as both cold, and diving opponents were prevalent in Europe, it wasn't very well suited to conditions there. Most of the 109 and 190 variants have comparable or better performance in most respects, and because the elevators stopped responding at high speed, if the P-38 got the upper hand, the German fighters could just dive to disengage.

In the Pacific theater, the Japanese fighters tended to rely more on agility, so the Lightning could play to its strengths more, and the nature of the theater demanded much longer ranges than the ETO, which was another major P-38 strength.

On match ups I would like to see, P-47N vrs Yak-3P. The P-47N has a 2,800hp engine, and was more agile than the previous Thunderbolts, due to it's enlarged, clipped wings, but the Yak-3P will turn loops around it if it lets itself get caught in a furball, and will bite hard with 3xB-20's. What makes it more fun is, until about 4km, the Thunderbolt would have only a small edge in max speed. It will be a real battle over who can control the energy fight.

Even a squadron level fight of that would be something to see: the Yak's cannons mean you can't just "drag and bag" the way you can against Zeros, or (to a lesser extent) 109's, but the Yak's construction isn't enough that it can shrug off a hail of heavy MG either.

very good analysis, but its also imprtant to remember that the P-38 was also prefered in the Pacific theater due to having 2 engine reliability. Lets face it, almost every engagement and missions in that theater invloved long flights over a vast ocean. Wouldnt you want an extra engine to limp home on if need be.