4.12 development update discussion and feedback

[JtD]

For the 109G the aircraft data sheet says that landing from 20m altitude takes 350m until touchdown. In landing configuration you're supposed to glide in at 180-200 km/h indicated air speed, touchdown at around 160 km/h. This corresponds to a glide ratio of about 1/8.

I haven't been able to find this figure for a 190, but generally landing speeds for a 190 were about 20 km/h faster, and roll out distance pretty similar, so I'd expect something similar. It would be interesting to see what the glide ratios of 190 and 109 are in game, landing configuration, 0% throttle, at 220 / 200 km/h.

Changes to the flight models are generally made to improve realism. In case of the Spitfire IX, this mostly changed handling, with the Spitfire V, both performance and handling were effected. It appeared that the Spitfire needed considerable nose down elevator to fly level over most of the speed range, and this is something we now have in game. This is based on test data and I think you'll also find this on the vast majority of photographs taken of Spitfires in flight.

[SPAD-1949]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Do you cut throttle on landing or run at a higher value? Sounds counter intuitive but I've been running at 30% until just a moment before touchdown and that seems to help. I was having great difficulty getting the FW190 to slow down as well.

A wider turn helps buy the throttle thing did too.

Well I usually cut throttle to ilde at an approach of 1000m and 400kp/h
Then I pull some attitude in a harsh manner to force down rpm, which adds some 200 or 400m of altitude. Following I try to reduce speed by slipping until I can set combat flaps at ~300kp/h this usually takes a long time and I must not bleed of altitude, otherwise I maintain or gains speed again. When bled of speed to at about 330kp/h I set start-flaps and drop gear at about 220 kph. this usually takes 4 minutes, if I remain on altitude. At 200kp/h I lower landing flaps and try to bleed of altitude, which, with flaps and gear out usually results in an increase of speed. Now its getting complicated, because if you come in with sligthly more than 200kp/h, and engine idle, the crap maintains altitude and uses half of the runway until touchdown, using the entire strip. And dont fricking pull the stick to stall for a 3-pointer. Youll find yourself immediately gaining hight until you really stall and crash land. If you manage to cut speed lower than 180 when reaching die strip, you harshly stall and bolter like donkey on speed. I think the right speed is 190 - 195, but its hard on short strips. It was way easier in 4.10, I never reached the same shorntess as in a 109 but I cant remember the days I needed an entire concrete strip to force her down. About the correct prcedures, I havent found information yet. Can you provide them?

[Rot Bourratif]

When you are gliding above the runway with your landing flaps extended, just above `dirty` stall speed, start retracting flaps: Take-off, Combat then no flaps.

[jameson]

This help?

The stalling speed of the Fw 190A-4 in clean configuration was 127 mph (204 km/h) and the stall came suddenly and virtually without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g stall in a right turn, it would flick out into the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have its wits about him.
The stall in landing was quite different, there being intense pre-stall buffeting before the starboard wing dropped comparatively gently at 102 mph (164 km/h).
For landing on this and the numerous subsequent occasions that I was to fly an Fw 190, I extend the undercarriage at 186 mph (300km/h), lowering the flaps 10 deg at 168 mph (270km/h), although the pilot's notes recommend reducing speed below 155 mph (250 km/h) and the applying 10 deg of flap before lowering the undercarriage. My reason for departing from the recommended drill was that the electrical load for lowering the undercarriage was higher than that required for the flaps and German batteries were in rather short supply at Farnborough - that in the Fw190A-4/U8 was most definitely weary- so I considered it prudent to get the wheels down before taxing the remaining strength of the battery further!

The turn onto the final approach was made at 155mph (250km/h), and full flap was applied at 149 mph (240km/h), speed then being eased off to cross the boundary at 124 mph (200 km/h). The view on the approach was decidedly poor because the attitude with power on was rather flat and unlike most fighters of the period, it was not permissible to open the cockpit canopy, presumably owing the risk of engine exhaust fumes entering the cockpit. The actual touch-down was a little tricky as the prefect three-point attitude was difficult to attain and anything less than perfect resulted in a reaction from the very non-resilient undercarriage and a decidedly bouncy arrival. If a three-pointer could be achieved, the landing run was short and the brakes could be applied harshly without fear of nosing over.

Extract from Wings of the Luftwaffe by Eric Brown.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by SPAD-1949

Well I usually cut throttle to ilde at an approach of 1000m and 400kp/h
Then I pull some attitude in a harsh manner to force down rpm, which adds some 200 or 400m of altitude. Following I try to reduce speed by slipping until I can set combat flaps at ~300kp/h this usually takes a long time and I must not bleed of altitude, otherwise I maintain or gains speed again. When bled of speed to at about 330kp/h I set start-flaps and drop gear at about 220 kph. this usually takes 4 minutes, if I remain on altitude. At 200kp/h I lower landing flaps and try to bleed of altitude, which, with flaps and gear out usually results in an increase of speed. Now its getting complicated, because if you come in with sligthly more than 200kp/h, and engine idle, the crap maintains altitude and uses half of the runway until touchdown, using the entire strip. And dont fricking pull the stick to stall for a 3-pointer. Youll find yourself immediately gaining hight until you really stall and crash land. If you manage to cut speed lower than 180 when reaching die strip, you harshly stall and bolter like donkey on speed. I think the right speed is 190 - 195, but its hard on short strips. It was way easier in 4.10, I never reached the same shorntess as in a 109 but I cant remember the days I needed an entire concrete strip to force her down. About the correct prcedures, I havent found information yet. Can you provide them?

I know exactly what you mean. I've spent years trying to land the FW190 and when the changes came in for it I've spent some further time trying to get it right. jameson just posted a great piece of information... better than what I have seen previously.

Try your next approach with a bit of throttle and see if it changes things for you. I may be wrong but my seat of the pants feeling is that it causes a bit more drag.

[SPAD-1949]

OK, Im gonna try this. I allways followed the 109 procedures but with slightly higer speed, cause the 190 was more rugged and there was no way for me in the game to bring it in with 170kp/h for a 150kp/h 3 point TD like its possible for the 109s until F Models and slightly higer for Gs. I know the gear drop speeds in Il2 are not correctly modelled and you can force them out with much higher speed than the original without the danger of ripping them off, but I tried to follow the procedures I found in several sources. Unfortunately I did not find any for the 190. Thanks

[Fighterace]

Is an updated P-40E w/ M-105 engine being included for 4.12?

[Nicholaiovitch]

Originally Posted by JtD

I haven't been able to find this figure for a 190, but generally landing speeds for a 190 were about 20 km/h faster, and roll out distance pretty similar, so I'd expect something similar. It would be interesting to see what the glide ratios of 190 and 109 are in game, landing configuration, 0% throttle, at 220 / 200 km/h.

I have carried out this test and produced the results in the FW190 FM thread so as not to take up space here:-

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=153

The results are very interesting!

Nicholaiovitch

[SPAD-1949]

Originally Posted by Nicholaiovitch

I have carried out this test and produced the results in the FW190 FM thread so as not to take up space here:-

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...&postcount=153

The results are very interesting!

Wow!
Good conclusion. At the other hand, did someone notice the sudden ammount of drag, when the engine is sligtly damaged following overheat or minor hits? Hardly to bring the a/c oer 300 kp/h even in descents.

I did not know, that I can apply manual pitch on the german fighters. How does this work?

[Nicholaiovitch]

Originally Posted by SPAD-1949

Wow!

I did not know, that I can apply manual pitch on the german fighters. How does this work?

Hi SPAD-1949

Go to "Controls" and in the pitch settings assign a key to "Prop. pitch auto".....that's it. It works on later Spitfires etc. also.

Take great care with this setting as it was a standby setting IRL with no protections of overspeed on these a/c (I believe). It is therefore easy to damage the engine by exceeding RPM limits.

Some of the outstanding online chaps use this all the time on the Bf109/FW190 to extract the max. performance....but it requires a great deal of practise and well beyond my abilities!

Good luck.

Nicholaiovitch