Euro 2012 (Football)

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

the new stipulation that each squad must have so many home grown players is an attempt to reverse/avoid the situation at l'arsenal, so it's a step in the right direction. i've always maintained that having the cream of the world's footballing talent, or a portion of it at any rate, is vital for the improvement and development of our young players - you play with quality you learn something from them. however there is also the issue that the coaches in this country place too much emphasis on a certain style of football - a particularly graceless one at that - and certain attributes for players. messi for one would've been discarded as being too small, whereas barca saw the ability and gave him hgh to try and make him less tiny.

That is kinda contradictionary in regards to what Osprey said. If there is not a propper youth training scheme because all the money goes to foreign players, what youth is supposed to learn from them?

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

That is kinda contradictionary in regards to what Osprey said. If there is not a propper youth training scheme because all the money goes to foreign players, what youth is supposed to learn from them?

well that's just balderdash, to be frank.

the financial fair play rules make developing youth players all the more vital, as you need to discover the next ronaldo and messi rather than buy them. some clubs have exceptional youth development set ups (such as manchester city, everton's is noteworthy as well as, of course, united. arsenal create some wonderful players as well. liverpool's used ot be good, but hasn't really produced anyone that comes to the top of my head since gerrard.) which, whilst they may not produce many players that walk into city's first team (hart and richards are currently the only two to have gone through it), do produce players that are capable of playing in the premier league or other top leagues in the world (guidetti on loan in the eredivisie last season was rather special i gather, onuoha, wright-phillips and barton at QPR, boyata at bolton), and are thusly sold. united's youth set up used to be quality as well, but their output has not lived up to the generation of scholes and giggs. only welbeck and cleverly are all that noteworthy of the current crop, but it's a bit early to say whether they are actually going to come good, or if they'll be a bit macheda. the problem for lower league teams is that they used to discover these players and sell them up the leagues for a profit. as the top flight now need to reduce expenditure and steal a march on their rivals they snap these kids up at any age from 11 for pennies, meaning the lower leagues are robbed of both revenue stream and of talent that may turn out for them for a couple of seasons, helping to earn promotion or higher league places before being sold. if anything, the less able players are sold down the leagues at more than it would have cost these teams to develop them, although it seems quite common that the top flight just release players from tehir contracts if they aren't going to make it, so they are free agents and can sign for whoever for nothing.

osprey, i'm a manchester city fan, like my brother, like my father and like my grandfather. my dad was born and raised in salford, and, after jaunts in edinburgh, eventually moved back within about 40 miles of manchester, where i was raised. i stood on the terraces in the kippax when i was 11. i've been to watch us play second division shite (and i mean old second division), i've seen your lot come to us when you were decent, i've watched in dismay as we play for a draw when we need a win to avoid relegation, i've been to wembley to watch us snatch salvation from gillingham... and i've seen us, finally, play the kind of football my childhood self was convinced we were capable of. to paraphrase somewhat, i've served my time in hell. to say that all clubs have disengaged from their fanbase is also to display a rather amusing level of ignorance. i can only speak for city but fan involvement and engagement is actually better than i can remember at any point in my life time. i remember one kind of fan involvement very vividly, namely protesting against swales' ownership of the club. now we have every season ticket holder's name emblazoned along the walls of the stair cases going up to the seats.

so you can take your supermarket analogy and stuff it.

[Osprey]

The supermarket analogy stands, it just doesn't apply to you. But take note, 2 seasons with a filthy rich arab and you've started to talk like a glory seeker and 'believe' in the EPL. Maybe you didn't notice that.....

[MD_Titus]

take over was in 2008, so that's four years. it's just two years of winning something. and it was certainly aimed at me.

i've always "believed" in the premier league set up, even when we weren't part of it. although how it is something to "believe in" i'm not quite sure. if you really think the reason the england national team performs badly is the influx of foreign talent then you are, quite honestly, parroting the slightly xenophobic excuse mongers among the tabloids. why were we rubbish before the premier league?

i knew a lad who, when he was 11, could hit a 60 yard ball to feet. this was around the same time that gullit was playing for chelsea, and him hitting a long cross field pass to feet earned replays. this lad was told he was too small - not tall enough and not broad enough, and got knocked back from a few trials he had with top flight clubs as a result, although he was, i believe, due to sign a youth contract with bolton shortly before he discovered fags, booze and recreational narcotics was more fun than the training involved. he would've made a superb false 10 - slight, wonderful close control, fast on the ball, eye for a threaded pass... all the kinds of things that people pay through the nose to watch someone like david silva do. coaching in this country, not the foreign players, is the problem. we play god awful football, and don't nurture talent. we'd turn players like iniesta and xavi into cloggers, or worse - injure them when they were kids, or bore the passion out of them with endless non-ball training.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

take over was in 2008, so that's four years. it's just two years of winning something. and it was certainly aimed at me.

i've always "believed" in the premier league set up, even when we weren't part of it. although how it is something to "believe in" i'm not quite sure. if you really think the reason the england national team performs badly is the influx of foreign talent then you are, quite honestly, parroting the slightly xenophobic excuse mongers among the tabloids. why were we rubbish before the premier league?

i knew a lad who, when he was 11, could hit a 60 yard ball to feet. this was around the same time that gullit was playing for chelsea, and him hitting a long cross field pass to feet earned replays. this lad was told he was too small - not tall enough and not broad enough, and got knocked back from a few trials he had with top flight clubs as a result, although he was, i believe, due to sign a youth contract with bolton shortly before he discovered fags, booze and recreational narcotics was more fun than the training involved. he would've made a superb false 10 - slight, wonderful close control, fast on the ball, eye for a threaded pass... all the kinds of things that people pay through the nose to watch someone like david silva do. coaching in this country, not the foreign players, is the problem. we play god awful football, and don't nurture talent. we'd turn players like iniesta and xavi into cloggers, or worse - injure them when they were kids, or bore the passion out of them with endless non-ball training.

Firstly, it was aimed at glory hunters, and you were talking like one. I don't include Man City in that group, most real fans don't, because all of the armchair plastic fans choose clubs with more recent titles.

If a player is not an athlete first then he won't make it wherever he is, no matter how good he is with his feet. Of course some will be missed but that happens anywhere. I assume you know that Messi was rejected early in his career? That said I already cited the failure of the FA and their old boys club in coaching from that very early age. Foreign players, who are better, make sure that a lot of young talent doesn't get first team football and the new EPPP will make that even worse - this has nothing to do with what idiotic tabloids write. I haven't time to complain about it now, I want to go home, and frankly there are better places than here to talk about it anyway. Go post your opinion of the EPL @ www.cpfc.org They aren't morons there like most football sites, well mostly, so you get a sensible debate.

And no, we weren't rubbish before the EPL. In fact, just before it in 1990 we were damn unlucky not to have won the World Cup, it was a very strong England team which came off the back of English domination of the European competitions up until Heysel got us banned.

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Osprey

Firstly, it was aimed at glory hunters, and you were talking like one. I don't include Man City in that group, most real fans don't, because all of the armchair plastic fans choose clubs with more recent titles.

If a player is not an athlete first then he won't make it wherever he is, no matter how good he is with his feet. Of course some will be missed but that happens anywhere. I assume you know that Messi was rejected early in his career? That said I already cited the failure of the FA and their old boys club in coaching from that very early age. Foreign players, who are better, make sure that a lot of young talent doesn't get first team football and the new EPPP will make that even worse - this has nothing to do with what idiotic tabloids write. I haven't time to complain about it now, I want to go home, and frankly there are better places than here to talk about it anyway. Go post your opinion of the EPL @ www.cpfc.org They aren't morons there like most football sites, well mostly, so you get a sensible debate.

And no, we weren't rubbish before the EPL. In fact, just before it in 1990 we were damn unlucky not to have won the World Cup, it was a very strong England team which came off the back of English domination of the European competitions up until Heysel got us banned.

already seen a large influx of fans of the plastic ilk, since 2008 tbh. quite how i was talking like a glory hunter i do not know. there's a difference between being a plastic and revelling in success.

england have been quarter and semi-final fodder for ages, which isn't that bad really and makes out 8th place in the global rankings rather accurate, but we failed to even qualify for the '94 world cup. that the young talent doesn't get first team football is a bit of a fallacy, they just don't get it easily with the top premier league clubs. the emphasis of athleticism over ability is exactly part of the problem imo, the entire way the game is coached from 5 and up means we get athletes rather than players. you're right, they do need to have that athleticism, but if it is at the expense of nurturing skill then it's not being done with the right balance.

[arthursmedley]

Anyway.................really looking forward to tonights game.
Come on PORTUGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jatta Raso]

yeah this is EURO 2012 thread, not 'The EPL model development thread'

[MD_Titus]

lol

aye

spain v portugal should be an interesting game. can the spanish tiki taka keep the ball away from ronaldo and nani? not sure spain have quite the same explosive threat in attack, but they are overall a better outfit than portugal.

[Jatta Raso]

sorry if it sounded like a pun.. the hour's coming and i'm starting to get restless... it's not everyday we have the chance to send Spain home