Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by moilami

TL;DR: I don't want to be treated like a possible terrorist.


* * *

Sorry, I don't really want to spread that propaganda here. I am an amateur photographer and because of that I have read many stories. But if I list even part of it here it begins to look like propaganda.

I just say that based on all news and experiences I have read, many of those coming from citizens of USA, your country appears to have been changed. You seem to have problems with ground level officials too (police and other security personnel), which is not surprising. If you give too much power to common people they will abuse it.

I don't recommend anyone to not go to USA. More than 99.9% of the visitors wont have any problems there. It is just that your officials can ad hoc do very nasty things if they suspect one is a terrorist. I don't want to get arrested in the airport and interrogated for some days before sent back to where I came from. I don't take that risk. I don't want to ruin my holiday. There are maybe 190 (out of 199 or so) countries in the world I would rather visit. Going into some of them would be rather adventurous, which would be part of the experience. But if I travel to USA, I don't want it to be adventurous because of some security personnel. It just feels wrong Your country is now not what it is supposed to be, in my opinion.

I have plans to do either Touring Murmansk or Touring Alps trip next summer. I know anything can happen in those, but I don't have to fear a single bit that officials of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Austria, Germany, or France would begin to abuse their "rights" against me. Murmansk is a little bit different thing, but huh, much rather Murmansk and Russian cops than USA! That word by the way, USA, was once almost a synonym for a word freedom. No matter how hard I try, I can't say it is so anymore. Do you get it? I don't want to be treated like being a possible terrorist. It is offending.

Did you give me a TL,DR and then go on to post a similar wall of text? lol. Just joking .

You would not be treated any differently than a US citizen and you would have known that if you had read my post lol. We, citizens, are being treated like terrorists in the airports too. It's an ongoing debate, especially within the last few months. I myself have chosen to fly as little as possible since the most recent changes...my own little protest.

However, knowing what I do about security measures in other countries, there is no appreciable difference where security is concerned. We are just now catching up to what is going on elsewhere in the world on the security side. It's sad that it had to come to this.

BTW, there are plenty of places in the world I would not go to and a lot more that I would not live in given their current direction. So I understand what you are saying.

Splitter

[Richie]

Originally Posted by moilami

Alright, back on track.

Now, lets see what you have learned.

I ask you a question are those who fly allied planes in IL-2 better than those who fly Luftwaffe planes?

moilami.

You and I know that this is a crazy question. Anyone who fly's online and is on teamspeak will find out who the good people are after a couple of months of constant flying. You get to know who's married what their families are like etc. so you can get a pretty good feeling weather you like this person or not. I've ran into some people I don't like but it really doesn't have anything to do with the Luftwaffe. It's usually extreme Republican types I don't get along with LOL

[BK_JG27_Treiber]

Originally Posted by Richie

It's usually extreme Republican types I don't get along with LOL

And stop going off topic too.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by BadAim

I have to side with Splitter on this one, mate. It's us who should be afraid of "Homeland Security". So far as I know it's just SOP in Europe. I can relate to finding the Government strange and scary here though. I sleep with a .45 by my head.

Just one? I have one in my nightstand and the wife has one in hers. (This is one reason I don't cheat on my wife, btw.)

On topic:

People say IL-2 is just a game. Maybe it is to them. However, I try on occasion to put myself in the shoes of the men who flew these planes for real. It helps me feel a connection to the history.

History is not just about dates and names. It's about learning the lessons of history.

As an example, I had a strange kill the other day. With my last bit of ammo, I got a snap shot at an enemy plane I had been fighting in a rolling scissors. I knew I hit him, but it was a very short burst.

He went into a long, slow, descending left turn. I didn't know what his next move would be so I stayed above and behind. In short order, I became conviced that he was going down.

I know similar things happened to the real pilots and I got to thinking about what they would have been thinking in the same situation.

First, they probably started shaking from the adrenaline. Then they probably started hoping the other guy would get out (I have heard pilots talk about the first time they "saw" an enemy pilot die...before they viewed it as just shooting down planes).

When they realized the other guy wasn't going to bail, they probably started wondering if he was conscious or not. Were his flight controls and canopy jammed? Maybe he caught a stray bullet and was already dead or unconscious....they probably hoped for that because being aware through the whole descent would be a terrible way to die.

Then the surviving pilot, after seeing the foe crash into the sea, probably turned his plane toward home and filed his thoughts away until he could mull them over while having a pint.

I have to think that most pilots on all sides had some empathy for their foes. They all ran the very real risk of being trapped in a plane on its' way down or getting trapped in a burning cockpit. I think that's why "shooting someone up in their chute" was so uncommon.

Yeah, it's a game, but it is what you make of it. some people treat it like a game, others also see a connection with the past.

Splitter

[moilami]

Originally Posted by JG52Driver

And stop going off topic too.

I have to say I always admire those republican vs democrats shootouts. Someday I am gonna read what are the differences between them. Have to admit I really don't know

And sorry for the OT.

[BK_JG27_Treiber]

Originally Posted by moilami

And sorry for the OT.

I wasn't directing my post at you, don't worry. It was directed at Richie.

[Richie]

LOL

Well I think we're all friends here

Anyway I'm from Canada.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Yeah, it's a game, but it is what you make of it. some people treat it like a game, others also see a connection with the past.

Splitter

Or both, but you are on target there.


It's one of the reasons I fly in Il2.

Some games can be quiet serious, take military war games for example. Those games are used to develop strategy, teamwork and experience for the people involved.

Unfortunately due to my limited time I can't take it too seriously at the moment. I would not be able to commit the time for training and availability to join a serious squadron for example. Good luck to the people who can. It is one thing that I admire when I see a group of people cleaning up on a map because their using teamwork and skill to achieve their objectives.

Cheers!

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Unfortunately there may be a fundimental difference in philosophy here.

My way of thinking is that well educated 'common' people are probably the least likely to abuse power.

Cheers!

It was badly written sentence by me, I meant police etc. with common people (which they are). But naturally common people should have very little power. Or do you want I can do body search for you girl just because I suspect she might be hiding some sort of terrorist attack plans under the dress Intriguing thought Anyway even thought I would not use that power I don't want it - just to be sure I don't abuse it.

If you give too much power for police etc., like power to arrest people at whim or power to do home/car searches at whim, they will abuse it. That is also when they have got too much power, hmm, even if they would not abuse it often.

[proton45]

Originally Posted by moilami

Alright, back on track.

Now, lets see what you have learned.

I ask you a question are those who fly allied planes in IL-2 better than those who fly Luftwaffe planes?

Ok...now things have been stretched to the extreme. And a little bit of a ridiculous comment too. I dont think that anyone here was even suggesting that "bad people fly axis". It was my impression that we where talking about our personal feelings on the issue of flying Axis aeroplanes...

Originally Posted by moilami

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

Lol...its kind of funny (to me) reading stuff like this, cuz things haven't really changed here that much. IN FACT, most of the "security changes" we have had here, have been mirrored in most of the 1st world. The UK, France, Germany, & Japan have all increased their "anti-terrorist" policies. They just call it something else their...

Too me...it sounds like you have been reading the "conspiracy theory"/ "Fringe political" blogs or something..."Guantanamo" aint filled with innocent tourists...rest assured.