Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Ltbear

People who wount play for a side in a computer game or dont want to visit some country because of some historical past are the worst breed of humans, they are the ones who dont learn from history, but judge by history.

Thanks good posting.

I want to comment it because the quoted paragraph made me laugh. Urgh, now this goes political, but for the sake of lol's I say it anyway.

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

I think I will have to launch a wing of Luftwaffe fighters and shoot down some USA bombers to feel more secure Sounds good! Attention, make my Focke-Wulf ready! Scary stuff in the horizon, looks like American bombers

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

Agreed.

However, I don't feel right flying for the axis, I've started a few campaigns, and not finished them, I may start some more some day, don't expect I'll finish those either, but you never know. The Fins I don't feel so bad about, but I still don't usually fly for them either.

I don't disrespect the axis pilots, as people have said they probably didn't know what was going on, but one difference between me and them is that I do know what was going on, which is partly why I don't feel right flying for that side.

I fly for that side because I feel very comfortable in the 109, and 190. They really feel as an extension's of my own being, very comfortable aircraft. As far as the German pilots back then, they were like pilots from any other country, just following orders, with very few options. No doubt worried about their family and country, and so they did what was asked of them.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Ltbear

People who won't play for a side in a computer game..............are the worst breed of humans

Well thanks very much.

I think in spite of the language difficulties, this might be overstating the case slightly.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by moilami

Thanks good posting.

I want to comment it because the quoted paragraph made me laugh. Urgh, now this goes political, but for the sake of lol's I say it anyway.

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

I think I will have to launch a wing of Luftwaffe fighters and shoot down some USA bombers to feel more secure Sounds good! Attention, make my Focke-Wulf ready! Scary stuff in the horizon, looks like American bombers

OK, I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say there, but I will say this: things absolutely have changed here since 9/11. Having 3000 people murdered in the space of a couple hours by religious zealots is bound to have an effect. Of course, making people's lives more difficult is part of what the attackers were after too.

But things have not changed much, if at all, in every day life.

The "security" thing is an ongoing internal debate here. Some of the measures intrude on some basic freedoms we are guaranteed by our constitution. EVERYONE is being inconvenienced in the name of security, but it's not like the american way of life has changed.

As an example, one of the largest debates going on today revolves around security scanning at airports. If you set off the buzzer, or get pulled randomly, you have a choice between having an X-Ray scanner take a naked picture of you, or you can choose to go through a thorough "pat down" search, that includes your privates (thank you Mr. UnderWear Bomber).

That is the price we pay because we do not believe in discrimination (called profiling). The 90 year old grandmother from Boston is treated the same way as the 22 year old young man from Yeman. Does it make sense? That is the debate. Neither of the two people I mentioned are likely to be terrorists, but then I'm sure we would agree that one is more likely to be a terrorist than the other.

So we are being inconvenienced because of the terrorists....how does that make things more scary now? I think you are falling victim to some propaganda. Things have not changed all that much, especially for visitors.

I'm just curious: what "scary" things are you being told?

Splitter

(I have a more on topic post that I will separate out to another post)

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by moilami

Thanks good posting.

I want to comment it because the quoted paragraph made me laugh. Urgh, now this goes political, but for the sake of lol's I say it anyway.

Some years ago I made a decision I wont travel to USA because I read so many strange things happening in there in the name of "homeland security" or whatever. I would still consider twice before I would travel to USA. It would certainly have to be something extremely special and important for me to do it. USA is very scary country novadays because of its government.

I think I will have to launch a wing of Luftwaffe fighters and shoot down some USA bombers to feel more secure Sounds good! Attention, make my Focke-Wulf ready! Scary stuff in the horizon, looks like American bombers

I have to side with Splitter on this one, mate. It's us who should be afraid of "Homeland Security". So far as I know it's just SOP in Europe. I can relate to finding the Government strange and scary here though. I sleep with a .45 by my head.

[etendar]

Tal vez les sirva este reportaje que se le hiso al capitán de navío retirado Augusto Bedacarratz, tripulante de uno de los Super Etendart que hundieron al HMS Sheffield:

"A los familiares de los que murieron en el destructor Sheffield les diría que lamento muchísimo haber sido uno de los causantes de su dolor, que seguramente lo tuvieron y muy grande".
En la acción que él lideró, ocurrida el 4 de mayo de 1982, murieron 20 marinos y otros 24 resultaron heridos.
"El 4 de mayo nos despertaron temprano con la orden de que teníamos que realizar la operación, para la cual nos habíamos preparado durante semanas", explica.
"Un avión explorador que había despegado a las cinco de la mañana ya había detectado el blanco. En ese momento la pareja de pilotos que estaba de turno éramos el teniente Armando Mayora y yo. Rápidamente nos alistamos para salir".
"Trabajamos en silencio, muy concentrados en los pasos por seguir. Eran tantos los preparativos que no había tiempo para el temor y la angustia, a pesar de que la operación era altamente peligrosa y nunca antes habíamos disparado misiles Exocet".
Una vez que los dos Super Etendard despegaron, en condiciones climáticas adversas, los pilotos no dialogaron hasta que detectaron por radar la formación de buques británicos, que se encontraban a 20 millas náuticas y por lo tanto eran invisibles para ellos.
"Ahí rompimos el silencio, intercambiamos información y di la orden de lanzar -recapitula Bedacarratz-. El misil que yo llevaba salió cuatro segundos después de que apreté el botón.
"Ese lapso fue terrible para mí, porque me pareció una eternidad. Mayora no había escuchado mi orden, pero al ver que yo lancé el Exocet él también lo hizo".
Bedacarratz dice que, para él y su compañero, todo ocurrió velozmente, casi mecánicamente, con una sola cosa en mente:
"Al apretar el botón no nos pusimos a pensar en las muertes que podíamos causar. No es que fuéramos insensibles; sólo estábamos tratando de cumplir una misión, de neutralizar un buque que nos estaba complicando. No teníamos nada personal contra nadie".

Data: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/spe...00/1854116.stm

La guerra causa dolor del lado que se pelee.

[Ltbear]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

Well thanks very much.

I think in spite of the language difficulties, this might be overstating the case slightly.

Any sentence can be manipulatet to sound different

**
People who wount play for a side in a computer game or dont want to visit some country because of some historical past are the worst breed of humans, they are the ones who dont learn from history, but judge by history.

**
Judged by history

"Dad why dont you never fly German. Well son they are damn nazis, wount have anything to do what they made"

"Grandad se im flying, only Allied as my dad, i wount fly German nazi planes i fly allied just like him..."

Learned from history

Dad why do you fly nazi planes. Well son, its not the planes that are bad, it was some of those who lived in Germany a long time ago that was bad.

Grandad se. I fly this German plane just as like my dad, i know nazi`s was bad, but they made great planes...

------------------------------------------

Think the above should explain what i meen by judging history and learning history....

Any kid mirrors there parrents, what you learn them they remember....so what is the choise....learn or judge.....

LTbear

[Skoshi Tiger]

Do all philosophers have an 'S' in them?

In my opinion one of the biggest tragedies of the war is that even till this day there are people whose lives and the lives of their families are still ruined by events and actions that they experienced over 70 years ago.

Time heals all wounds. Unfortunately in some case this takes longer than others. For some hatred of the 'enemy' still consumes their lives and effects the decisions that they make in their lives. Will any discussion we have here be able to change that? No.

IL2 is a computer game, nothing more or less. I tend to fly red more often because I have a great deal of respect for the men who came together from around the world to fight for freedom and preservation of their way of life, which I can enjoy the benefits of now.

Does this stop me from flying Blue to even out numbers, Hell No! I get more kills in Blue aircaft because 10 years of Luft-Whiner pressure has porked the balance of the game in Blues favour! (SK starts building a sand bag wall and waits for the incoming assault - I'm joking of course!)

Should I hate the French because the Vichy Government sent the Foreign legion to North Africa, or the modern Japanese because their military regimes involvement in New Guinea and the South West Pacific? Deep in my heart I just can't bring my heart to it. If veterans like my dad can forgive (but not forget) their enemies, then who am I to feel any different.

Some may find it hard to understand but I can respect the skill, daring and sometime chivalry of pilots from all sides of the conflict at the same time as detesting and despising the system and atrocities that were allowed to occur. The governments and regimes that allowed those atrocities to occur were destroyed a long time ago.

Anyway that’s my 2 bob's worth

Cheers!

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Splitter

So we are being inconvenienced because of the terrorists....how does that make things more scary now? I think you are falling victim to some propaganda. Things have not changed all that much, especially for visitors.

TL;DR: I don't want to be treated like a possible terrorist.


* * *

Sorry, I don't really want to spread that propaganda here. I am an amateur photographer and because of that I have read many stories. But if I list even part of it here it begins to look like propaganda.

I just say that based on all news and experiences I have read, many of those coming from citizens of USA, your country appears to have been changed. You seem to have problems with ground level officials too (police and other security personnel), which is not surprising. If you give too much power to common people they will abuse it.

I don't recommend anyone to not go to USA. More than 99.9% of the visitors wont have any problems there. It is just that your officials can ad hoc do very nasty things if they suspect one is a terrorist. I don't want to get arrested in the airport and interrogated for some days before sent back to where I came from. I don't take that risk. I don't want to ruin my holiday. There are maybe 190 (out of 199 or so) countries in the world I would rather visit. Going into some of them would be quite adventurous, which would be part of the experience. But if I travel to USA, I don't want it to be adventurous because of some security personnel. It just feels wrong Your country is now not what it is supposed to be, in my opinion.

I have plans to do either Touring Murmansk or Touring Alps trip next summer. I know anything can happen in those, but I don't have to fear a single bit that officials of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Austria, Germany, or France would begin to abuse their "rights" against me. Murmansk is a little bit different thing, but huh, much rather Murmansk and Russian cops than USA! That word by the way, USA, was once almost a synonym for a word freedom. No matter how hard I try, I can't say it is so anymore.

So, do you get it? I don't want to be treated like being a possible terrorist. It is offending.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by moilami

If you give too much power to common people they will abuse it.

Unfortunately there may be a fundimental difference in philosophy here.

My way of thinking is that well educated 'common' people are probably the least likely to abuse power.

Cheers!