Communism at its best...
 

Got this off of wiki

Typical of Soviet Second World War aircraft, many Il-2s were "gifts" presented to specific pilots and partially paid for by organizations like hometowns, factories or comrades of another fallen pilot. The most famous of these was an aircraft purchased with the savings of a seven-year-old daughter of the fallen commander of the 237th ShAP. Learning of her father's death, the girl sent 100 rubles directly to Stalin asking him to use the money for an Il-2 to avenge her father. Remarkably, Stalin actually received the letter and 237th ShAP received a new Il-2m3 with the inscription "From Lenochka for father" on the side.

See, stalin was a nice person, when he wasnt being a bastard...i also got this off wiki...

In his book Inside the Soviet Army, Viktor Suvorov alleges the lack of protection for Il-2 rear gunners was part of a deliberate policy. Suvorov claims from 1942 on, all Soviet airfields had attached penal companies of air gunners. Such companies were made up of prisoners who were considered to be "enemies of socialism" or "enemies of the people." The air gunners were not provided with either armour protection, or allegedly, parachutes and were reliant entirely on their machine guns to ensure their own survival. The death rate among the air gunners was exceptionally high. According to Suvorov, prisoners who survived could theoretically clear their sentences after nine missions. The prisoners, however, were always transferred to mine clearing or other units for "medical reasons" before this could happen.

you suit your username, shoulders holding up ok?

The British used to do it too, it cost £5,000 to buy/build a Spitfire and £50,000 to buy a TBM off the Americans. The public were encouraged to have garage sales and the like to save up money to buy aircraft.

The Soviets did it with tanks also.

About the gunners on IL's, it was because the gunner was added in later variants and the only space for them was outside the armour tub which the pilot sat in. Most Soviet penal battalions were infantry and used in the first wave and clearing minefields, basically anything that was a suicide mission.

Lol, this has nothing to do with Stalin being nice, this is pure communist propaganda, the story just "sounded good" for the agenda. I wouldn't be surprised if the family of Lenochka was forced to give up the little money they had for the greater good and they starved to death later, at least the a "good" story came out of it.

and why do i have a chip on my shoulder?

i can see why one random act of alleged niceness, can revoke a lifetime of bastardlyness :) yes its a word i made up what of it :)

Its almost like george bush buying a small iraqi girl a my little pony.

This reminds of the british not allowing there pilots to use parachutes in the First World war as it "may impair the fighting spirit of pilots and cause them to abandon machines which might otherwise be capable of returning to base for repair."

A Pilot Major Mick Mannock once said he carried a revolver "to finish myself as soon as I see the first signs of flames."

Makes you wonder the logic of the people who lead the armed forces back then!

well no-one doubts that Bush is an asshole, just as much as Stalin is. so your statement is redundant.

yes cus repeatedly walking towards the enemy very slowly speaks volumes :)

How is that statement redundant? I thought it was a humorous comparison.

And out of curiosity, how did you come to choose your username and avatar?

Yeah wan't he one of the top British aces? He had a real fear of crashing on fire... and that's exactly how he died. Apparently he didn't fire his pistol though.

it was this or Sgt. Pepper, why do you think?

I don't get it.

He's very sour since he got kicked out of the lonely hearts club band...

:P

lol well played sir.

Why thank you sir :)

Yeah he was known as the ace of aces of the British Empire credited with 47 kills. Its believed he may have attempted to bail out of his aircraft before he hit the ground but without a parachute his revolver may have been the better option

To bad he didn't try to Paint it Black... ROLLING STONES FTW!!!

More like a 1 dollar cupon to McDonalds only valid in Texas USA. Give an iraqi free food? now you are talking dangerous commie ideas, The american way is to steal their food THEN sell it back to them at an inflated price.

I like how everyone is so quick to bashing America, at least now I know that Europeans and others don't really dig the policies (for real, not just some theory or assumption!) I'm thinking of moving to Denmark?

we're not bashing america, or americans, we're bashing the bush administration / republicans, but with the democrats, america is on the road to recovery.

*looks out the window for blacked out limo's* ;)

So republicans are unamerican? Sounds like your painting with a broad brush. I just love it when a European makes a biased and prejudicial statement and then twists it into something disarming and tolerant. Go listen to your Green Day crap and leave politics that are no concern of yours alone.

Good man then I can teach you 2 langauges* at once, norwegian and danish. The process is simple 1] Teach you to speak norwegian 2] to speak danish put a good size raw potato in your mouth and speak norwegian and what you say will sound very close to danish.

* Well more like dialects if one want to be technical about it as the language "line" is more of a political thing

I don't think it matters what or who we have in office on this side of the ocean. Democrat, Republican, Leftists, Right Wingers, it doesn't matter to me. I don't think anyone can really help pull the US out of it's "economic slump" which I prefer to call a SERIOUS GODDAMN RECESSION aka Light Depression?

Sweet :P

No they arent "unamerican", they're idiots, and they caused MOST of america's Woes,

Wars, Health Care System, recession, failing schools, unemployment... the list goes on.

you see, you're republicans are like our conservative party, they havent learnt that even though their politics CAUSED a recession in the 80's and they privatised all our services and shut down all our mines and industries, that you CANNOT cut taxes, and raise public spending, hence the mass privatisation, the same way that your republicans think you can solve it with small government and its retarded bills and schemes like the no child left behind act where they CUT a schools budget because it ISNT performing.

and take it from your uneducated, aggressive, and fevered rant that you are a republican, so go cuddle your .45, and go listen to your conway twitty and get an education about your political parties. Because your politics ARE a concern of ours when your president persuades our leaders to send OUR boys for your treasure hunt in the middle east, and when americas stock market crashes OUR stock market crashes.

Our politics isnt perfect, but we question it, and argue it, and debate it, and recognise where our mistakes are.

yet your so quick to be "patriotic" and blindly praise an idiotic leader and his corrupt government, because we arent even going to go into the election fraud and the conspiracies, and the hoaxed second election videos. they were very clever, but lets not pretend they werent VERY dishonest and corrupt, borderlining on illegal.



P.S. Greenday suck!

Not disputing your statement as it leads nowhere - but can you explain the connection between politics, Europe and Green Day?

he also failed to register I was talking more about the Republican Party than the people, as the people have NO power... which is kind of the point of joining the repbulican party. :)


and he said greenday because they are a whiney preachy band that criticise everything and make it look cool, like U2, or Black eyed Peas, oh and Coldplay, whiney bands that preach pretencious BS, I AM with him on that part.

What I quite don't understand is the discussion about introducing a proper healthcare system. Obama is made look like a dictator who wants to mass murder old and handicapped people when quite the opposite is true.

Dammit, now I got involved in a political discussion...

lol watch michael moore's Sicko, he is a tool, but the film is interesting, take it with a pinch of salt.

universal healthcare was made to look like socialism, and of course the big reds were scary due to political propoganda, and even regan was involved with spreading the fear of universal healthcare.

its a very interesting topic. but it works for us, canada, and france, and many other coutries.

thats why the republicans will stop at NOTHING to bring up bollocks like death panels and socialised medicine. because most of them are in the pocket of insurance companies.

as i said, watch Sicko, its good. if not a little over-sentimentalised, but it is aimed at the lowest common denominator of the american population.

That one phrase fills me with fear for the future.

Was that the experiment where he had a guy with a broken leg treated in the US, Canada and Mexico? I read something about it some time ago - will watch it when I can get hold of it.

because its real name is "the american population"? ;)

sort of, it goes through healthcare in detail, insurance companies and medical directors, and yes he takes 6 people to Cuba.

it also shows you which congressmen and women were bribed by the insurance companies.

Guess what if you lived here you would understand why we don't need universal healthcare. Its a waste of money ! The states have the best health care system in the world. If you need anything you get the best of the best and you get to pick any doctor to go to. Trust me I was unisured and I am a 9 year cancer survivor, of stage 3 Bone cancer. I would be dead right now if we had Obama's plan when I got sick. There is no doubt about it. I could have never had my choice of the best doctors and I would be dead. So F**k National health care. It will do nothing but Kill the poor and give them less choice. When your sick in america and your uninsured, You can go to any doctor in the united states and they will treat you with best of care, and all you have to do is fill out some paper work and you will never have to pay a single cent. Its that simple and that EASY !!! Its a complete and total lie that its not that good. We just need to make some reform on the current system, and put some Crooks behind bars. We need to quit treating 38+ million illegals that are driving costs up, and we need to kill off the Unions because they are killing America and its buisness ecomomy.


PLUS,
This Scare tactic crap that people can't get help is a HUGE lie from the government. People don't want this and sad to say it but we will see a civil war over this if Obama keeps pushing.
I live in a little town and last month it was shut down for most of the day because there was over 8000+ people both Black and white protesting against it. Its happening everywhere in America. The news media is just so owned by the government that no one hears anything about it.

America is over 12 Trillion dollars in debt now ! and to top it off the government has never EVER done anything right , EVER !! why would anyone in their right mind want to let them run our healthcare ? I mean really thats just Pathetic. The states need to run their own buisness and then they can compete against each other and the best system will be shown. Our states are like small countries here in the US.

DESODE

Wow, I need to understand this. No offense, just curiosity!

You are uninsured, fill some forms and get cured of cancer.

So who paid for the treatment? A private company? Who gave them the money? Is it magic?

No irony/sarcasm/whatever - I just have to know how that system works, nobody seems to know about that over here in Europe.

State tax, and then Federal Social security tax. Then each state has Tons of Non profit organizations that have funds set up at each hospital, to help people also. The real problem is that the average person, doesn't know how to use the system.
See my state of Ohio is changings since the Democrates took over. Now I'm neither a Dem or a Rep, so please don't think I'm coming from a side in any way.
That said the Dems changed Ohios state health funding to Quote" Save money" Now what did they do ? They set up what is called state HMO's These are insurance companies that if your under state health insurance you have to pick a HMO. The problem is Every doctor, is all Union Doctors. Your choice is now limited and they spend more money then ever now.
Example: In order for me to go and see my Surgeon, who is in the best 10% in the world, I have to now, go see 3 Union doctors and have them sign a piece of paper saying yes he can go see his surgeon. Now The state has to pay each of those 3 doctors $800 each just for a signature for me to see my doctor who is not a Union Doctor. So here in Ohio the Dems they created a massive paper trail that costs them more money just so they can keep the Union support.

Back to your main question, we also have what is called Workmans compensation insurance. So any employer has to pay into this insurance, if you get hurt on the job, and are uninsued you are insured by your employers insurance. If you aren't employed when you get sick then the state has special funds set aside from Gambling tax, Alcohol, and tabbaco tax, to take care of you.
So the cost of my treatment came from all four, State Tax, that I have been paying since birth, Federal Social security tax that I have been paying to the Government for 30 + years, and Workmans Compensation insurance that my employer payed, and Non profits organaztions that provided me with Medications.
Desode

Where in the States are you from?

Glad there is some common ground. Yeah, they should stick to something they're good at like writing songs about masturbation instead of manufacturing dissent.

Any way I'm done with this, always down for more Green Day bashing tho, haha.

What we really need here is reform,
There are states here in the USA that are running their state buisness so well that even with "Americas ecomomic troubles", they are in such great shape that they have a Surplus of Money ! The problem is that the Govenment is now saying to them, Hey you are doing to well and you have managed your state better then other states so you need to suffer for doing good so we can take your money and give it to the states that are having problems.

The problem with this is ,,that in doing so the Government is killing that state that has done well, and has managed their system perfectly.

Under the United states constitution the Federal government doesn't have the athority to do that.

Thats why we have almost 20 states that have threatened leaving the United states of america. When these states joined the United states they signed a contract with the federal government, and that contract says, that they are free to run their own buisness and in return they will pay a percentage of their total State tax to the federal government. Since Bush and now Obama are both going against these old agreements and ignoring the Constitution of the United States, We are on a verge of civil war.

Then we have the News and Tv and they are now bought and paid for by the government so the American people don't know really now what is going on. All over the US people are now not getting any real news so they are using the internet to look up and study the Constitution, and Lots of them are Pissed that the Government is trying to run everything, and they aren't going to take it anymore.
That is what is really happening here in America. See this country has 150 yrs of great prosperity, based on the Constitution and the states running their own affiars, This in turn, made competition between the states and the best finacial plans came to the top. The bad plans and the states that made the bad choices suffer till the people in that state elect a change of state leadership.

Its meant to be this way because then everyones vote makes a real difference and each state and its people live, learn and grow and change for the better.
Now that the Government is over stepping its bounds and spending OUR money like its going out of style , they have come to the conclusion that they need more money and they are stepping on the constitution by telling the states what to do. Some Americans don't understand that in giving the Federal Government this kind of power they are silencing their own voice. Because the more the Government runs the country and the states, then the less the people's vote means.

I hope you get what I'm saying, I can only imagine how strange it is to understand our system.
DESODE

Ohio

I've enjoyed this. :) you are indeed an interesting person to debate with.

I quite agree, but Clinton did alot of good, lowest unemployment in how long? Bush and his party undid ALOT of that.

It was my understanding there was a LARGE outcry from the left. however 911 allowed Bush carte blanche to do as he pleases, e.g. Patriot Act. I'll leave that topic there, becuase you guys get touchy about it.

as for the recession, that is relatively partyless, and also largely down to the lending companies allowing stupid finances, its also not just an american flaw, its the entire developed worlds fault, for wreckless spending, so that I retract.

As for the last bit, that's cool, i did not know that. it's interesting.

It wasn't a question in case you didnt get the semantics, its because although you may be familiar with your 80's history, you may not be familiar with OUR 80's history. the point of that paragraph was that Margaret Thatcher and EVERY British conservative before AND after STILL hasnt grasped the concept that it doesnt work, that was a criticism of British Tories, NOT you or americans. but good for you, for not supporting Bush, Im AMAZED he wasn't impeached, and how blindly everyone ignored the MASSIVE fraud against the nation. But as I say they did it very well, just not well enough to NOT get caught.

1) i dont get what Canada has to do with it, maybe i missed something.

2) I was, I criticised Blair heavily for whimsically committing us to war.

3) Don't pretend you have any more friends out there than anyone else, I've lost 1 friend out there, 1 other class mate, and I have 2 more friends still out there and 1 who was thankfully demobilised. nearly EVERYONE knows someone, talking about it doesnt = uncaring, i can also NOT agree with why we're there without somehow wishing harm to all involved. also we should not pretend we're out there righting wrongs, or solving injustices, North Korea / China's oppression over Tibet, Zimbabwe's tyrrany... if ONLY they had oil and maybe we'd care.

and yes I do indeed know that Abraham Lincoln, was a REPUBLICAN and VERY AGAINST SLavery... republicans are NOT evil, I get it, I also never said it. Republicans HAVE done good, I am sure, but right now, Republicans have done themselves a LOT of harm, and the democrats, while also not perfect because hey guess what THEY'RE A POLITICAL PARTY, is the lesser of two evils.

Conway Twitty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_Twitty

country and western singer, kinda cheesy... i only know who he is through family guy, im more of a classic rock person, it just sounded funny. :)

.45 is indeed superior, and Ryan Adams does in-deed rock, no-one knows who he is when i talk about him.

I was referring to the Reps themselves, but I can see why that was misconstrued it was not clear.

I also wasnt trying to call either party fascist or communist.

I have enjoyed this, it's nice to finally have an intelligent conversation with someone who has an interesting opinion to share, who also knows how to have a debate. Thank you :)

believe it or not i find american government simpler than british government. also its cute that 20 states want to amancipate (is that the right word?) but its NEVER going to happen, they would fail instantly.

but everyones vote DOESNT make a difference, I watched the last 3 elections, live, i stayed up all night, after a certain point, the votes that are STILL left to be cast in the west, dont matter, the race is run. I dont know how you'd go about fixing that, but the whole points system and is it seats, per state, i cant remember the proper term, is it tickets? damnit its late and im ill, but either way i watched the states turn as they were counted and verified in the obama race, and i believe that it was once they took ohio or somehwere like that, it became impossible for McCain to catch up... making any subsequent vote... worthless.

just my understanding of it.

is Glen Beck bought and paid for by the government? FOx he's on isnt it? clearly a moron hired either for a bet or simply to antagonise people to get a ratings reaction.... so im not buying bought out media. also the irish guy... cant rememebr his name (i know its not helpful) he's certainly not pro democrat and he still has a job and gets aired.

but again intersting.

Clinton did some good but the Free trade agreement Killed america's industry jobs , I mean just about every one of them, No more steel mills, no more factories, It cut americas industry by 75%. We don't Even make Basball caps anymore. Well I think there may be 1 company left in all of America. I can go and take you pictures of all the Empty factories up and down the ohio river. One after another, Its really Sad, when you watch something kill off your areas livelihood and you watch towns and small citys that once were a population of 1000 not left empty and they only have 150 people left. In the time since clinton passed that Damn thing I have watched towns that don't even have their name left anymore. There gone.

Bush did a couple of things right. He helped my children get a better education then I got when I was young, because I only had the choice of one school system, under Bush they were able to go to any school, even private schools and they excelled in school, when they couldn't have done that with out Bush. There isn't much he did good but that is one thing he did that I will always THANK him for it.

I feel sorry for the children going to school today, bcause Obama took away that choice and its very sad for the children in America.

Desode

yeah i get the loss of jobs / livelihood thing, the 80's cost alot of people in this country thanks to Thatcher, where I'm from her name is practically swearing.

As for schools Im not hugely familiar with your school system, however, i only know of the no child left behind act that DOES NOT help children, and i do believe that was a Bush thing, I'm glad it helped your kids, but it did not help all.

I don't know who Beck is ? I don't watch the news of any kind much.
If they are in the media they are bought and paid for by someone, From Mikie Moore to Rush limBPuke, They need to go away. They need to quit changing history and twisting facts to make money.

DESODE

Im right with you with Michael Moore he is a tool as previously stated, as for Rush Limbaugh, I dont know much about him, but google Glen Beck or You Tube him, its classic, he says something outrageous, then in the next breath denies he ever said it, its comedy.

It enabled so many poor children from the iner cities to go to Good schools you can't even imagine. Really you can't. I still can't believe Obama made my friends children (this yr) go back to public school , Lucky for my kids they graduated last year before Obama decided to screw his own race out of their chance at education.
I will hate him till the day I die for this and this alone.
House MD , I beg of you ,don't believe the Cut and spliced up documentaries that ripp on the No child left behind act.

Because maybe it didn't help rich white children , but here in the projects where I'm from it saved a lot of children's future. So F==k Obama for what he is doing to his own people, I will never understand it,,, NEVER EVER.

Thats a touchy subject here where I live in South Cleveland,
I'm just going to drop this subject now because its makes me to upset to talk about.
Have a Good Evening, DESODE

thanks for the chat :) honestly its been interesting and informative. have a nice night.

I feel the norwegian system is worse, every vote is "inverse" weighted by your registered municipality population number, the less people the more the vote is weighed/worth and vice versa, the more people the less the vote is weighted/worth. Theres little incentive for us living in cities to vote as they are next to worthless.

Obama is the manchurian canidate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manchurian_Candidate), groomed by our enemies, he is a muslim. He does not work, he does not sit behind that oval office desk and work like other presidents have. He is a puppet that is dictated to by his masters and when they have no more use for him they will kill him.

Every day he is giving a speech and that is about it, you never see him behind that desk working. Yea, what he says sounds nice, but it is all an act, because that is all he really is...an actor reading the dictated lines from teleprompters at every rally, speach, talk and function, because his masters will only allow him to read from the script that they have prepared for him....have you ever heard the guy talk without a teleprompter? He is a complete babbling idiot without the script.

People say that he is brilliant because he has a law degree from Harvard. Really, so then what cases did he argue, what great things did he achieve as a lawyer? Yes, he may have the education, but as a lawyer he is largely unaccomplished. It sickens me to see people idolize him like he is a God and it sickens me that he encourages people to idolize him like a God. I find him lacking and transparent and am saddened that he is gaining a cult like status amongst the youth much like Hitler did. It seems people are afraid to question him and when they do, then they have to fear for their political, financial and personal future, eg Joe the plumber and now Mr. Wilson for calling him a liar in his speech last night.

I am sick of the pussyfooting and want somebody to call it like it is. The health care bill is not going to work and in fact its real purpose is to further push the US into a chasm of Debt from which it cannot possibly rebound. Once, the US is completely bankrupt and its creditors (China, the Saudis & the Russians) pull the plug on debt lending, the US will be offered a chance to dissolve into the European Union along with Mexico and Canada. Its brilliant really, you see you cannot defeat the US in a military War, we are too good for that and far to aggressive as a people, but you can defeat us from the inside out. Exploit our weakness, which is our affinity for over extending our pocketbooks.

No, if Obama really wanted to help our country he would be focusing on the economy, help people get jobs, help people make money, help our country repay its debt and then use that surplus to help people get better health care. If Obama, really wanted to help our country he would back off the CIA and let them do their job. If Obama really wanted to help our country he wouldn't punish small business owners. I could go on and on, but the fact is Obama is not here to help the United States of America, he is here to lead us into financial ruin and leave us exposed for some nuclear bombs. His purpose is to flatten and end the United States of America and I fear he is getting closer and closer to his errr his master's goal.

Seriously?!? What the f**k is wrong with these monkey-brained rightist imbeciles in this country? I've just about given up on America myself. I'll always be proud of our heritage and founding ideals, but I've just about had enough of the country as it is. I'm gonna finish my (very expensive) education and then start looking for somewhere else to live.Perhaps Australia, or somewhere in Europe. (though I'd have to learn a new language.) America is too caught up in the consumerist rat-race. Civic virtue is dead and the middle class is dying. The current administration is a step in the right direction (well, actually the left direction :-P ) but it's too little, too late. Reaganomics and the repeal of the Bretton Woods agreement have already done too much damage. As far as I can tell, the USA has started the long, slow process of entropic decay and there's nothing left that can be done about it.

By the way, Desode has absolutely no idea what he's talking about when it comes to health care. My brother knocked a dagger off its stand in his room last year and it fell and stabbed him in the thigh. It didn't go in deep enough to damage anything, so he just needed stitches. Even after the insurance paid for most of it, it still cost us over TWELVE HUNDRED DOLLARS! This was a procedure a WWI field medic could have preformed and it cost over a grand! I'm sorry, anyone who thinks that the US health care system isn't completely broken has their head in the clouds (or more likely up their ass).

So anyways, you know the oft touted expression, "This is AMERICA. If you don't like it, GET OUT!"?
Well, I think that's a f**king good idea!

Oh and back on topic, I'm pretty sure the stories of Soviet penal gunner units are bunk. I read an article on the historicity (yes, that's a word) of this a few years back, but I can't remember where. It was well researched and the sources were reliable, though.

Doesn't the Norwegian government have a "Socialist" type government? Something I heard, probably wrong though :-? I'd still move there so I can smoke all the weed I want *Joke*:cool:

LOL You crack me up man, You want to see the Xrays or some pictures of my Leg ? I have had 5 major surgeory's (over 12 hrs long each )and went through 8 rounds of chemo and those rounds of chemo lasted 2 weeks long each for 24 hrs a day , and then I would be deathly ill for a month then start my next round. I have over $732 thousand dollars in surgeory, Don't insult me by telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, I have no debt and have never paid a single cent for a single medical bill. You must live in a differnt america then I do , or your brother doesn't have the brains of a fly or still lives with his parents and they make to much money for him to get his shit paid for, by the state. That or he didn't go to his local job and family services and apply for the state to pay it.


Desode

Yep, so if you don't like free healthcare & higher education find some other country :P

TO NORWAY WE GO!!!! Or Denmark, either one?

Sweet :D:cool:

I am perplexed that you have labeled me a "monkey-brained rightist imbecile." My rant had nothing to do with left or rightist views, but it has everything to do with how Obama the puppet is strangling this country while it heads over to its death bed. I would fancy myself to be an independent thinker and do not tie myself in with either party.

I would sit hear and quibble with you but I don't argue politics, I state my opinion and move on. I don't need to change your opinion, because I am not a politician, nor do I really care what your opinion is, either you agree or disagree with me. Obviously you come from moronic stock which thinks its a good idea to let sharp knives hang over your head and then somehow blame the health care system when they fall and you get injured, so really I would prefer you to be as far away from my views as possible, because you would make us "monkey-brained rightist imbecile's" look bad.

On a final note, I think you should get a refund on that "very expensive education," which appears to be broken and maybe get yourself a "real education," as they are cheaper and actually useful.

Well maybe he and his brother live in a different state. As you stated the healthcare in Ohio works well, but that says nothing about the other 49 states in your country.

It seems to me that the American dream is over or even has become an American nightmare. The upcoming civil war you mentioned appears to be a very real threat considering all that I have read here.

Apart from that, no matter if the pot that pays your medical bill is called state tax or social insurance - basically it is built up on the solidarity of the ones who require less than they pay for. I am quite healthy and surely paid more for my health insurance than I ever got out of it; sometimes it pisses me off, but still I would not like to have another system. I don't know what happens tomorrow and if I happened to have cancer I would not have to fill in a single form to get my medical treatment covered, I just show them my social insurance card that everyone has and that's it.

Correct me if I'm wrong - as I get it from the News, Obama wants to introduce a federal health insurance to compete with the private insurance companies that are ripping off their customers. Under the current system the insurance companies sometimes reject customers due to high risk of illness or even cancel existing contracts when the going gets tough. If it is that way - what can you have against it?

Ill people shouldn't have to beg or to fill in any forms to get treatment.

I live in Arizona, which is a red state, unlike Ohio. In our state workman's comp only pays for on-the-job injuries and there's next to nothing when it comes to cash from the state to pay for medical expenses. Most of what's available is for those who are below the poverty line (which is drawn far too low). Hell, our state legislature just voted to sell of state buildings and then lease them back to "save money". They also cut programs while at the same time trying to abolish the property tax. And yes my brother is living at home without a job. He's 14. Fourteen year olds don't have to work in America (at least not yet). He is kind of dumb, though. You got that right! :)
I do apologize for being overly harsh and insinuating. I should have been more polite and made it clear that I thought you didn't know enough about what the situation was like in other states. I, on the other hand, made the same mistake of looking at the American situation through the lens of my own state. For this as well I apologize. I'm still pretty set on emigrating, though. Health care was never the primary reason for that decision.

The rightist part was just an assumption which was based on the general political swing of those who typically hold views similar to your own. I think the rest stands, however. Yeah, my brother was being kind of dumb when he placed his dagger on his shelf, but what do you expect from a teenager? We were all like that, once. "Moronic stock", eh? You clearly don't understand that most of what determines intelligence is environmental. As for expensive education, it's not expensive by American standards ($8000 per year at a state university), only by the standards of countries that actually care about how educated their populace is and have public tertiary education systems. I don't think I'll try for a "refund" just yet, (as if THAT would ever happen) since it's kind of hard to be a geologist on a high school diploma. Judging from your writing I'd say that's what you consider a "real education". (Yeah, that was a cheap shot but I'm sick and tired of conspiracy proponents.)

:-P LOL! Both of them are too cold for me unfortunately. I'm a desert rat, so I need a more moderate clime. If we could plop Norway's people and government on the French Riviera I'd call it heaven and move there ASAP!

Spain, Italy, Greece, Southern France - they're all nice places. Politically however, the mess gets bigger the further down you get in the south.

Hello,

come to germany mate. It would be nice change to have a highly qualified US American immigrating to our country instead of the usual flood agressive muslim Goatherders with zero qualification.

And you will get medical treatment anywhere for free, even if you have NO health insurance whatsover. Whoever is realy ill, gets treated. No bills for that.

Welcome anytime :)

Cheers

Rob

I hear what your saying, The problem is that atleast half of american's don't want the government to make any of their choices on their health care. Its not the governments job here in america. We have heard about the financial costs—and the other costs—of allowing the government to interfere with matters of life and death. However, we haven’t heard whether the Constitution gives Congress the power to enact these plans. What does this say about the status of the Constitution in the minds our policymakers today? If a concerned citizen asks a proponent of nationalized healthcare to point to the constitutional authority for such a law, he may hear that the “General Welfare” clause, the “Necessary and Proper” clause, or the “Interstate Commerce” clause enables Congress to create national public health insurance to act.

None of these clauses—or any others found in the Constitution—gives Congress the power to create a government healthcare system.
The “General Welfare” clause gives Congress the power “To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.” This clause is not a grant of power to Congress. It is a limit to a power given to Congress. It limits the purpose for which Congress can lay and collect taxes.

During the founding, some Anti-Federalists were concerned that this clause “amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defence or general welfare.” But James Madison, the “Father of the Constitution,” explained very clearly that it granted no power to Congress. If the “General Welfare” clause gives Congress the power to promote the general welfare, then why specifically list the other powers in Article I, such as the power to establish post offices and post roads, or to coin money? Wouldn’t it be redundant to list them?

In short, as Madison argued, Congress derives no power from the general welfare clause, which merely serves to limit Congress’s power to lay and collect taxes. Congress can only do so for purposes of common defense or general welfare, in the service of the powers granted to it elsewhere in Article I.

Second, “Necessary and Proper” gives Congress the power “to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States.” Like the general welfare clause, this clause was not a stand-alone grant of power to Congress. Rather, it authorizes Congress to make laws that are necessary (and also proper) to make the other grants of authority in Article I effectual.

In other words, the necessary and proper clause cannot itself authorize national public health insurance. One would have to show that national public health insurance is necessary and proper to execute some other power granted in the Constitution.This puts the proponents of nationalized healthcare back where they started.

Lastly, proponents might argue that national health insurance is part of Congress power “to regulate commerce…among the several states.” While progressives have often used this clause to expand the federal government, it does not apply especially to the creation of a national health insurance, because to create and engage in commerce is not the same thing as regulating commerce among the several states.

Nobody during the framing generation expected the commerce clause to expand the federal government’s authority to anything relating to or resembling commerce. James Madison wrote that it is a power “which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained.” The clause was designed to prevent some states from taxing goods that passed through their boundaries as those goods proceeded to market.

In case, proponents of government healthcare latch on to another clause, the three clauses above and rest of Constitution are explained in depth in the Heritage Guide to the Constitution .

Of course, most progressive advocates of national health insurance are unconcerned whether the Constitution authorizes such a law when a pseudo-constitutional reasoning to reach the desired result will suffice.

I personally think we may see this go before the Supreme court.
Who knows ? All I know is I don't want the Federal government in my health care, They have never done anything right, Everything they do here in america is messed up. Its always really bad, there is so much red tape and loop holes and one thing after another, its just a mess, and everything they do looses money !! EVERYTHING ! They have never ever made anything profitable.

If America was small like Canada or some other countries , yes it may work and work well, But America is to large for it to ever work. Its to much for one government to control, and if they do it, then there is no way to stop them from taking even more control in the future. We are already sliding down a insane slippery hill with what has been done in the last 10 years, Example Look at Bush's Patriot act. Now that thats in place, it will eventualy be used for Bad purposes against the American people. Heck it already is being used in a horrible way.
On top of it all , WE CAN'T AFFORD IT. Its to the point here in America that our dollar is almost worth nothing anymore, and every time the Government spends more money it drops even farther. Is the health care system so far gone that its worth bankrupting our country ? You got to take that into consideration. We could make heavy reforms and drop the cost of health care and not sacrifice our country. Why is that not even being considered ?
Please someone tell me WHY !!

If your from another country then you know how much the falling of our countries money and financial market effects the world markets.

Yeah they say that it will make more competition and lower costs, but how do you compete with the government cost ?

If you run a buisness and you pay health insurance on your workers ,,, and the Government starts taxing you to pay for National Government health care, Why would you keep paying your private insurance ? That would be stupid , your paying more taxes for the National health insurance so why pay twice for the same thing ? That would just be plain bad buisness.
There is no way that it will create competition. It will end Private health care and private insurance. There is no way around it. America's last great job industry is health care based insurance. It makes up almost 30% of the jobs in america.

Now America is lossing jobs like crazy. Right now we have the highest unemployment rate in decades and its getting worse by the week.
What happens to that 30% when All the employers in America say " Well Shit I ain't going to pay All these taxes for national Health care and not use it ?"
Say good bye to even more jobs in America. Because that 30% is going to get hammered with job loss. More job loss means less money put in the free market, That means higer prices on everything, And lets not forget the falling dollar. So now your paying more for everything and your money is worth less, How is this helping anything really ?

We still aren't even taking into consideration the burden that National health care TAX is going to put on America's Small buisness's. How many people are they going to have to lay off or how many people are going to have to close their buisness because of this Tax ?

Plus How is national health care going to create competition to make leaps in medicine. If the government takes over the health care system then where is all the money going to come from for medical research ? Is the Government then going to tax us all to pay for that ?

Constitutional law aside. People just don't understand all the problems it will create else where in America and not just here but in the entire world financial system.

Have you ever stopped to think what country makes the most ground breaking developments in medicine ? Look it up some time. Who is the world leader in medical advancement ?

Just my opinion , Desode

DESODE

wow im not even going to bother listing all the ways your a moron, but heres one bit of info .... Obama isnt Muslim you cretin, I cant believe no-one else corrected you, get an education before you come spilling bullshit.

LOL - you even talk like House, I love that show! I'm still amazed at how well Hugh Laurie does the accent? I couldn't think of a more British sounding man too!

How many barack obamas does it take to change a light bulb? none, coz barack obama doesnt know how to change ******* anything.

same shit, different arsehole.

socialism is the way forward.

Damn, I never knew Obama was Muslim? Even though I voted for him (yes I did) I didn't vote for him because I thought he could get us out of the recession, or even clean up what Bush and the others left behind (it's just to big of a mess). If you see on the news, Obama is portrayed as an everyday guy. His family isn't some lavish fancy wearing family, they just dress in typical clothes. So the fact that they show him like that, gives the youth a liking to him. That's what several teenagers etc. have said here in LA.

And your idea that the US Military cannot be beat is sorta being an airhead, sorry to put it like that, but it's true. Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan have shown that the military style we still used today, is no longer fitting for fighting the type of enemies we have. Vietnam showed us that with enough determination and courage, the US Military could be beat with guerilla warfare, where in the opposite case, we were still doing things like we had in WW2 etc. So I think that the US Military, can HIGHLY be defeated without being threatened from the inside.

And where did you get this idea that the EU would want to help and support the US, and allow us, Mexico, and Canada into the EU. The only nation in North America that I could think would ever be accepted was CANADA! Mexico would probably continue doing what it's doing, and probably fall into some drug cartel, police battle etc.

Universal healthcare is the only way to go dude. As I type this my wife is on her way to have a small surgical procedure. The thought of the cost didn't even cross our minds because there is no need for it to. It's a nice way to live. The US government controls the military. The military is in place to protect the citizens. Healthcare protects citizens. It's the same thing. Don't worry about the government taking more control. Control over what? If the US cut 10% of it's military expenditures I'm sure that would help greatly in providing basic aid for it's people. It's the only way to go in my opinion.

Maybe we'll move to southern europe. I do like to surf A LOT!

I thought Spain was the more open nation of them, but I dunno?

Your the one that boasted that you have a "very expensive education," as if the cost is really relevant at all. In fact that statement really made you look like a pompass prick. When I said "real education," I did not mean high school, I meant get a real education! You won't find a REAL EDUCATION in any high school or university, so don't take the term literal. You see history & text books can be re-written, and what you find in universities and places of education is usually a lot of bias. Use your own brain, and think logically. Formal education has nothing to do with being an educated person. And FYI, I hold a masters degree in Economics & Finance, with honors.

Ace, I like you, so I will be frank. You and I both know that the US did not have trouble in Vietnam, Iraq and Afganistan because its military is weak. The US struggles and continues to struggle in those conficts because of the politics. We could and should have leveled Vietnam, Irag, and Afganistan with months and months of insatiable bombing before we even let one soldier set foot on the soil and I am not even going nuclear here. The problem is, the political fallout from all of the civilian casualties would have been a PR nightmare. Our military and the soviets and the brits military all have the capability to make short work of most of the worlds dictator problems and you know it. And don't go saying im an american prick, because right now my money is on the Russians for being the dominant up and comer in this new fucked up planet.

Also, dont go on and on about the guerilla warefare in Vietnam, the americans invented guerilla two hundred years before nam, just go ask the brits about that one. And also, the US continues on with guerilla warefare, its called the CIA.

Obama is 100% muslim, prove me different? Cause right now, your insulting argument that I am a cretin, just aint cuttin it....I need a little more from you before I can see where you would say he is not a muslim. Granted you are an expert who is obviously highly educated, that I can clearly see in the way you idolize a make believe character from a fiction television show based on pixie dust and UNICORN HORNS! Bravo man, bravo, you are a touch of class now gander over my facts below and try to use that piece of crap you call a brain and get back to me.

Obama prays to mecca, bows to Saudi kings, gives speeches in Cairo praising muslims, publicly denounced his christianity when he walked away from his church of 20 years, he still hasn't selected a church for his children since he has been in office, his father was a muslim, the vast majority of his friends and mentors that have surrounded his life have been islamic and he shits all over Israel....and I am not even jewish so dont even go there.

So what's Finland like these days?

Nightwish FTW!

wow your an even bigger idiot than first thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

non denominational christian.

now go get an education, and learn the dictionary definition of idolise, because using a tv show's name for a forum name doesnt quite reach it. let me know if you need help finding it in a dictionary.

he isnt and it shouldnt matter anyway so long as he is capable,

as for the one who likes house too, yeah its a great show, and i dont talk LIKE him, i genuinly believe that hes an idiot with little education and a big mouth, who doesnt bother looking things up for himself, and spouts republican propoganda, so he probably believes in death panels too.


and yes the producer didnt know who hugh laurie was (HOW I DO NOT KNOW) but anyway he believed he was an american, because he only wanted an american actor, and the crew passed hugh off as a yank, and they only told the producer he was british AFTER hed hired him :)

Ugh, to cold for me.:-? If I needed to get out of the US, my first choice would to head to Australia.

Not keen on their accents, but everything else is nice.:grin:

I am an honest person, I work hard for my money. I am 23 years old, i had cancer when i was 13, and went though the harsh reality of chemo therapy. To say to a little boy or little girl that you must wait for treatment because of this new healthcare system is totally insane. I dont want to see handouts or bailouts because they dont work. If you want money, then work, if you still need money WORK HARDER. Now i havent read this healthcare bill, but if says anything relating about having to delay cancer treatment i will be pissed. The law makers who have come up with this bill and if they put that in there, they should take a stroll into an Chemotherapy treatment area.....if someone can say "sorry sweetie you going to have to wait in line to get chemo because the company hasnt made enough this month" to a person because they have cancer. They do not deserve their life. "Kamak86 your an idiot and being extreme!" Well to you i say "You walk a in a shoes of a cancer patient or someone who has cancer" I feel very strongly because everyday i wake up thinking if and when is cancer or a secondary cancer going to return. Or the long term side effects.... Bottom line is work for your damn money, people looking for handouts and bailouts or stimulus checks are just plain lazy.

clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap* clap*clap*

Amen brother!

Tell me, who paid for your private cancer treatment at age 13? Was it your full time job earning $50,000 a year?

Well you can tell that to my uncle and father who both served in the Marines, on the ground in Vietnam and parts of Cambodia actually. The way the US Military is established, is in no order of fighting their current enemies. Just because the US "created" guerrilla warfare, which is actually inaccurate since many nations before did, European History is fascinating when you look WAY back. But anyway, the way the US Military fights it's enemies just doesn't cut it. I never said the military was weak, but the way they operate is. No terrorist is going to fight the military head on like in WW2, but what it will be like and IS! Is that our enemies will probably ruin us Economically rather than guerrilla warfare, or any type of warfare that militaries can be involved. And I believe it's China that is becoming the up and coming Super Power, not Russia?

And Obama, though this may sound like I'm defending him which in a way I am, but not really him. Obama, is not Muslim. He does not believe in the Allah, the Muslim god or any of their beliefs. He goes/did go to a Christian church, but frankly I see Obama as a Atheist right now. If you look back to WW2, when FDR made the deal with the Saudi King to keep his family in power (Saudi Arabia wouldn't be called that if the SAUDI FAMILY WASN'T IN CONTROL), they would supply the US with all the oil they could. BUT! (And this is a reason Osama Bin Laden dislikes the Saudi kingdom) is that ALL AMERICAN PRESIDENTS AFTER FDR KISSED THE SAUDI FAMILY'S ASS. Truman, Eisenhower, JFK, Bush Sr. etc. They all kissed Saudi ass for the oil that they helped produce in a way, by keeping the Saudi Family in power. So saying that Obama is Muslim and every US President since Israel was formed has actually been shitted on by the Israelis.

Oh, I love this...

Bush kicks that Stalin Wanna-Be Saadam Hussein a new one, and He's the A$$hole.

Believe me, Iraq is better off without him, regaudless of the reason why we did it.

Now, if they can only get this democracy thing going without killing one another, they might be ok.

LJB:cool:

Thanks for the invitation! :-P

Germany is definitely on my list of potentials, though I'm not too crazy about the food. ;) If I were to move there I'd have to learn to cook more Mexican food first. Australia looks like the best bet so far, just because it's a great place to be a geologist right now.

Well I'm moving to Southern Spain! I already know some Spanish, so learning more wont hurt. Plus, I hear they're more open etc. I just need a good place to surf!!!

The fact that there are people in the U.S. dumb enough to fall for that crap is truly depressing. Hey, did you hear some people say Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990? He refuses to deny it so he *must* be guilty.

Actually, that wasn't a boast, it was a complaint. (As in "After I finish this education that's completely breaking my bank account and work off the debt of student loans I'll probably leave the county") I should have made it clearer, to avoid sounding like a "pompous prick".

Yes, you are right, the history books can be rewritten. I'm studying geology now, but I started as a history major. After taking the five requisite 100 level history courses, the next course is HIS 300, which is Historical Methodology. Basically, that's where you learn how to track down and verify sources, evaluate the historicity of certain claims, etc. So, even if you consider history text books to have been "rewritten" or that they're full of spin, a formal education in history (even just two years) provides you with the ability to evaluate for yourself the validity of a certain position. Similarly, when I switched over to geology, one of the first things we went over was the scientific method (how scientists investigate the validity of claims and generally conduct research). Every new topic covered in my geo classes includes a quick overview of the evidence that demonstrates what we're being taught. (the age of the earth, for example) So, a formal education is beneficial, not necessarily for the material being taught, but for the methodologies you learn for figuring these things out for yourself. Effectively, you gain the ability to "use your brain and think logically" more efficiently and accurately.

Where did you get your MA (or is it an MS?) in Economics & Finance? I'm not saying I don't believe you or anything, I'm just curious.

Here's the thing: What exactly did you gain from getting your degree? I'm sorry, but one thing you clearly didn't learn was how to construct a rational argument. You have made the claim that Obama is the following:

A. A closet Muslim
B. Some sort of spy
C. A puppet who has no real control over the country
D. He encourages people to idolize him
E. He wants to destroy America with debt.
F. He wants to force a crippled America into the EU.

(I think this is a pretty fair listing of the argument you made in your first post. If I have misunderstood any of your claims feel free to correct me.)

The thing is, you made these grandiose and very specific claims without providing a shred of evidence for them. Then, when House called you a moron, you responded with this:

You have failed to provide any evidence for your claim, and yet you expect others to "prove you wrong". This goes against all logic. The burden of proof is on the claimant, and this is something a person with a master's degree should know. If I were to say, "Fairies are real and they control all natural processes on earth" and provide no evidence for this, you would be quite right to call me a complete idiot. You wouldn't need to look under every rock and rotten log on the planet to prove that there's no such thing as fairies before you made fun of me.

In this post I quoted above, you did mention a few things you called "facts" which I assume was an attempt at showing evidence. Let's look at your statements:

Obama prays to mecca -I have no idea how you could possibly know that he faces Mecca and prostrates himself when praying. You either have some amazing access to the presidential bedroom or this is an empty claim.

bows to Saudi kings -He also bowed to Queen Elizabeth, I believe. Does that make him a monarchist? Other US presidents have bowed to the Saudi King before, and GWB sat on a couch with some member of the House of Saud (a prince I think). Are they Muslims as well?

gives speeches in Cairo praising muslims -So? One can have respect for a people without being one of them. I have a great respect for Buddhists, but I am an atheist myself.

publicly denounced his christianity when he walked away from his church of 20 years -I'd consider that walking away from his pastor, not Christianity.

he still hasn't selected a church for his children since he has been in office -Again, so what? Judging by church attendance statistics, most American Christians don't go to church at all either. And he is kind of busy, you know......

his father was a muslim -both my parents are firm Christians. It didn't stick, needless to say. There's no reason to believe that his father, who isn't a very committed Muslim (he married an "infidel"), somehow indoctrinated him and turned him into a superspy.

the vast majority of his friends and mentors that have surrounded his life have been islamic -completely untrue. I'm sorry, but I can't see how you could come to this conclusion after any honest inquiry. You simply made it up, or read it on the 'net and never double checked it.

and he shits all over Israel -This was obviously just a metaphor, but it gave me a hilarious mental image!



Anyways, I've spent way too much time on this claim of yours. If you wish to bring it up again, I'll have to ask that you back up your claim. As a wise man once said, "Provide evidence, or expect laughter and ridicule."

Sounds fun! I wish you a pleasant trip! :-P

PS Look for a cabin on a freighter to get there. It's cheaper than flying & you can take more stuff!

So it's insane to tell someone they have to wait for treatment, but it's OK to tell them they can't get any treatment at all because they're poor? On the one hand you talk about how important it is to get treatment to people, but then you refuse to allow for any mechanism to help them pay for it. WTF? I'd think waiting in a line for lifesaving medicine is far better than not getting any at all because you're poor.

"WORK HARDER", eh? What about people who can't get any job at all because of the record unemployment? Where exactly are they supposed to work, huh? While I'm pretty poor myself right now because of college expenses, my field of study virtually guarantees that I'll be employed and making $50-60,000 right after I get my MS. I expect to eventually have a six-figure salary. (this is not at all unreasonable in resource geology) My family medical history is remarkably free of cancer & other terminal diseases. The bottom line is that if we had national health care I'd be paying for more than I get out of it, and I still think it's a great idea. This is because I care enough about my fellow human beings to sacrifice a small portion of my income, a few luxuries, to save my fellows who are poor from dying. This is one of the largest problems I have with America today: Americans love their country, but we don't seem to give a shit about our countrymen.

What is taking you to Spain?

Wow, that's a long post. You've made several good points. There are a couple of things I want to research regarding the Constitution before I make a response. You obviously put a lot of passion and time into your post and I want to make sure I put as much effort into my response, so it'll be a little while (like sometime later tonight). I just posted this now to let you know that I'm not ignoring your post, (since I responded to everyone else) I just need more time to do some background work on this. (and I do have to leave for work in like 4 minutes).

Most of it is plagiarized.

Now, now, now, we can't expect the poor conservatives to be able to think for themselves, can we? ;) From whence is it plagiarized? Desode does have some good points buried in there, but there are some serious issues of economic understanding, and of course his guide to the Constitution is hardly impartial. (It was published by the Reaganesque conservative "Heritage Foundation", after all.)

So, what do you have to say, Desode? Did you really just cut & paste without doing your own work? If so, then I'll just recommend a book for you to read instead of spending my time responding. Well?

I managed to cut my face at work, took a 5 minute cab ride to the hospital, got stitched up, took the cab back to work. Didn't cost me anything apart from the cabfare. The whole thing took 30 minutes. The only thing the hospital needed was my name. US healthcare is..... not very good. I live in Norway.

ps
Soviet Ace, pot isn't legal here.

Same in Britain. The NHS is a wonderful thing.

Don't worry, it was just a joke. But I'm moving to southern Spain where I can surf!!! :D

Nicely said. I can't figure out what's wrong with you folks down south. We have had public health care here in Canada for decades and it works just fine. It hasn't bankrupted our country, it's made it better. Stop drinking the cool aid of the drug companies and insurance industry down there and start thinking for yourselves. America is the richest country in the world yet you can't afford to help your fellow man? Bollocks.

I'm by no means a conservative in any way shape or form, I guess if I had to label myself, I would be a OLD School liberal/ libertarian. I have a library of over 2000 books so, I do a lot of reading on my own and I agree with most of the cut and paste I posted however,, I don't agree with some of the heritage's views. I'd say I agree with their constitutional views on things concerning limited Federal government. I have read the Constitution over a thousand times and I majored in constitutional law at Harvard.

Do keep in mind that I wrote more of the post then I cut and pasted.

I grew up with parents that were Hard core hipppie Liberals. As my Pops ( retired Prof) likes to say, " Liberals are not Liberals anymore, because they want the government in their everyday lives. Hell , We lived through it once in the 60's and
70's, why would we want them to do anything ever, Ever again. When they overstep the constitution, America suffers. History always repeats itself and its sad to see that people never learn from history. "

Thats how I feel about it too, I grew up playing naked at Berkley during some crazy days. My parents lived for fighting Big government. They are dumb founded as to why people are so stupid today about trusting the American government with anything.

I'm sure we have a difference of opinion on how somethings should be done but I would just about bet we believe in the same goals. I just think that its up to the people to organize and make it happen on their own, State by State, The Federal government of the USA can not be trusted EVER ! They serve their purpose for national defense and helping the states to manage their economies with regulations, but HELL they still need to be watched like a Hawk with the regulations they impose, That way they don't get their hands in the cookie jar.

Power corrupts and even though that is a fact that must be accepted on smaller scales, it can be dealt with and corrected by the people on those smaller scales. When Power is done in a larger scale, it never works because the people loose the ablity to make those corrections, quickly.

Example if your playing Chess with 32 pieces, then you can stop any cheating. If you played chess with 1000 pieces, well it would be harder to stop any cheating. Its the same thing with Government. The founding fathers understood that,and the things that I see right now in america are so far gone from what they wanted its really truly Sad.
Our founding fathers wrote lots of books and those memoirs make it very clear what their intent was. If you really want to understand the constitution then I recommend you study the founding fathers just as much as you do the Constitution of the United states.

I personally believe in a vision of america that has a place for everyone, with all views and freedoms and religions. If you don't like it in one state then go to another one. Each state is meant to be in a way, its own country.

Let the people in each state determine how they run their state. Now days the Federal government wants to make them all laydown under the Federal umbrella and that is WRONG ! Its Bullshit and it doesn't promote what the country was meant to be, by the founding fathers.

Sure there are times when the government has to get involved, but make no mistake, that should be done under very watchful eyes.

I hope you don't hold it against me that I don't have the time to spend endless hours on here debating things, Trust me when I retire it will probably become a hobby of mine. Untill then, I have a family and I'm moving to my family farm, in the rolling hills of Ohio on Monday. I am actually surprised my internet is is still up and running tonight.

I do fear though, that when that time comes for me to pick up my hobby and debate as much as I want, I know in my heart that I will be branded with every bad name in the book. Why ? Because I will always stand for the People and the states they live in, and those rights above all else. I will always stand against any form of federal government that trys to tell those people and their states how to live their lives and run their buisness.

Diversity is what America is,and what america needs, and thats how it was created to be. It is the reason america prospered so well for the first 150 years, but Greed and the government have grown to the point that prosperity is now gone. When the government oversteps the laws that keep it in check,, Diversity is crushed, or it is manipulated,, or used for ill gains. When Government grows, diversity is devoured by greed.
DESODE