4.12 ai...
 

OK as some of you may know I have been pretty hard on the AI.. the friendly AI in particular.. but after flying quite a few hours offline since 4.12 was released I have to say that .. it is not as bad as I thought.. In fact the AI in 4.12 is pretty darned good.. on both sides.. There are ways around the AI gang bang issue. For one thing the commands have changed .. and it is a big change so before doing anything else take a good look at it.. Anyone Help Me used to be TAB 7 .. it is now TAB 8.. so if you are hitting TAB 7 .. well duhhh (smacks himself upside the head..) and that is just for starters ... I have also found that mixing up the commands between target all and attack fighters flight by flight seems to help... In this respect something like VAC is priceless!! In another post I made in here griping about the Gangbanging AI while the friendlies watch thing... JtD suggested that I let the rest of the flight press the attack early then jump in.. He was right.. !

Aside from being able to assign a flight number to my flight this is the best tact to take I have found.. Once the fighting starts .. if you keep an eye out and don't try to make all the enemy flights aces .. and act like you are fighting live pilots (as in don't take it for granted that they won't see you or that they will fly a predictable pattern.. because they don't anymore..) you can survive and actually have fun.. even in a 16 vs 16 fight.. If all the flights are actively engaged they will respond more readily to commands.. it is only when they get outside the immediate battle zone that they get stupid.. or really stupid I should say.. I have also noticed that the enemy AI are still good shots.. but they seem to suffer from some of the same things we do .. like panic.. and blind spots.. I was able to actually hide from 3 190s that were after me by hiding behind the mountains just south east of Sevastopol on the Crimea map. I nailed one of them before the other two caught me in a pincher .. but it was a very engaging fight.. In another incident I was able to stay underneath a bandit.. and he had no idea where I was so when he came out of his roll I was able to nail him with a few shots and that was all it took.. once he was wounded it was just a matter of staying on him till the right shot appeared.. In another fight I was being chased by 3 bandits and I was able to loose them in the clouds ... None of this was possible before.. not like this ..

Don't get me wrong there are still some issues with the AI .. but given the complexity of AI programming .. which I know absolutely nothing about.. I am in no position to speak too loudly.. As a consumer and particularly one who remembers how it was 6 years ago.. I have to tip my hat. I imagine that getting it the way it is was a challenge enough.. but it is much better than I thought initially. Now on all enemy ace AI it will be a short fight with anything more than 4-8 planes each.. at least with me... but by mixing it up, particularly on the enemy side.. (I make all the friendlies aces or veterans..) it can get interesting.. Hopefully at some point in the future we will be able to program each individual pilot in the QMB like we can with the skins on the pilots and AC in the QMB now.. since we can do it in the FMB.. that would really make it interesting.. for those of us who like to use the QMB ... but even as it is.. with some creative commands and not getting too ambitious on the enemy AI.. it can get pretty nice when you are going for the quick in the morning before going to work sim fix... yes indeedy!

With some of the other features in 4.12 the whole flying experience is different now.. Very nicely done!!

Agree... You actually have to think a bit against the AI now... didn't used to be that way...since before.... all you... had... to... do ..... was.... waitforit todo predictable patterns.

(BC, how many times have you had to replace the [period] key on your keyboard over the years? Honestly?)

:grin:

Thanks for the nice posts! Yes, AI is a very complex matter and one of the hardest things to manage in the development. I have no clue about Ai either, but its sometimes very surprising, what large results a small change can have - even for the author of the changings. :)

BTW: my personal experience showed me, that the AI pilots of my flight always perform attacks better, when they spot the enemies themself and I don't do any order. As if they have an own wild will and my orders could interrupt their eagerness. :D

LOL.. Never.. actually the A , E & part of the S key are the ones that have faded away... the period key is still all j=here. I kind of write like I am thinking at the time...

Do you think the option to program individual AI in each flight is a possibility in the future? That woyld make it even more interesting.. Flight/element leaders could be set at Aces & Vets with average and rooks spread throughout the ranks accordingly..
__________________

As pointed out elsewhere, it is like this already. Not only can each AI be given an individual skill level, they also have random sub-qualities added to their basic skill level.

I always tend to think that if people request things that are already there, they don't really miss whatever they are requesting.

Hehe! "BUZZ"


EDIT: Ahhh, I start to think, he is talking about QMB. Sorry, the quick missions are based on templates, which brings its restrictions and reduces the choises to a minimum. Thats the reason, why there is a FMB.

This is incredibly cool. Thanks for doing this!

But, are there any plans to: a) tell us what those sub-qualities are (e.g., in campaigns), b) allow mission builders to set those sub-qualities?

This can be done in the QMB? If so please enlighten me..

I know it can be done in the FMB but I am talking about the QMB. Just a simple Rook,Average,Vet,Ace setting in the QMB with the more detailed settings left to the FMB. If this is already possible then by all means please enlighten me.. I stated in the other thread that you are referencing that I was referring to the QMB..

Precisely what I am referring to... ! Thanks... Too bad.. are you sure it is not doable for individual AC in a flight.. we can set the flight AI.. maybe this can be extended to the individual plane in a flight level.. If not so be it.... but between you guys and the modders some amazing things have happened in this sim over the past 5 years.. things we only dreamed about in 2005.. so perhaps....

Another great feature that is AI related that I have noticed.. If you have say 4 flights.. as each flight gets wiped out they disappear from the command line when you TAB so you can get a good picture of what you have left if you loose track with all the screaming.. ('M takin hits!! YAAAHHHHHH!!)

Its a bit more realistic though, to call for someone and don't get an answer. :rolleyes:

Agree. One of the stupidest things in game design is that, often, not enough uncertainty is given to the player.

Absolutely..

It could definitely be done with the QMB since the skill level is just another line in the .mis file. It would require adding another dialogue box in the QMB Gui that worked with each individual plane, just like skins for the plane and pilot work now.

[ja0101]
Planes 3
OnlyAI 1
Skill0 2 <-------- Plane 1 Skill Level (Veteran - 2)
Skill1 1 <-------- Plane 2 Skill Level (Average - 1)
Skill2 3 <-------- Plane 3 Skill Level (Ace - 3)
Skill3 0 <-------- Plane 4 Skill Level (Rookie - 0)

If we did get this feature another thing I would like to see done with it is to incorporate a Random feature for you to pick too. In the Gui you would see this for a dropdown list.

Rookie
Average
Veteran
Ace
Random
The Random feature could be a straight 25% for each of the 4 options (Ace, Veteran, Average, & Rookie) or it could be truly random depending on the programming difficulty.


I understand what needs to be done but I definitely don't have the technical ability to accomplish it. :(


Wheels

Edit:
I rearranged the skill level order in the above part of the post to match how the list order is currently presented on the main QMB Page.
If an individual skill level for each pilot was to be implemented the individual skill level would need to be set up in the "Advanced Setup" section of the QMB.

The was the original list for this post but it doesn't match what currently exists in the QMB which could create confusion for the player.
Ace
Veteran
Average
Rookie
Random*
(The Random option is my "Wish" addition for the list since it is not available at this time.)

I have come to the point where I just don't think there is much that these guys can't do at this point and looking at what you posted and at the .mis file for one of my 4 vs 4 QMs..

I bet they could find a way to do that in the QMB.. It would be nice too because you would still have the expanded AI capabilities in the FMB that Caspar mentioned. By the way Caspar .. I looked in the FMB to see what these expanded AI characteristics were and could not find them there.. All I saw was the usual Rook,Average,Vet,Ace .. am I missing something?

That's not a .mis file but it is what is used to generate the QMB missions that you have saved. Since the QMB doesn't actually generate a .mis file each time you fly there might be a problem getting the system to recognise individual slill levels? Considering that you can get the QMB to recognise individual Pilot and Plane skins I can't phathom why it wouldn't recognise an individual Skill level though ??

It sure seems simple enough to accomplish to me considering what is already being done with the QMB but since I can't do the programming for it I have no idea the dificulty involved in making it possible.


Wheels

It's certainly possible to do, but as a user I wouldn't like it. It's a QMB after all, and it is complex enough as it is already. A higher variety in missions would be far more welcome imho (escort, intercept, anti shipping strike ...), or a swap sides feature.

That was where my reasoning was coming from..


I think just adding that feature to the QMB would not make it more complicated.. just more versatile.. as for the more missions.. If I am not mistaken .. can't we make our own templates now in the QMB? We can certainly add maps to it from my understanding.. Correct me someone of I am wrong.. Notonly that we can make escort missons now.. they are not as detailed as with the FMB .. but I have been using escort QMs since IL2 came out.

They way I envision it would not make it any more complicated since I would not be removing the Global Skill level choices on the main page. The Global Skill level choices on the main page would still be the default option and you would only get the option of using the individual skill level if you went to the "Advanced Setup" page and used the optional individual skill level for each pilot. To me this would work just like the Pilot skins and Plane skins since they use the defaults until you go into the "Advanced Setup" page and pick the skins you want the QMB to use instead of the default. If you feel like taking the time each flight of four can have its own pilot skin and plane skin but it is not required since the QMB will work perfectly well using just the default skins.


I completely agree that more Target options would be a good thing.

I am not sure what you mean by this since you can choose to fly for the Axis or Allies on each map that is part of the QMB setup.


Wheels

That's what I am thinking Brian.. and can someone clarify for me.. Can't we make templates now in the QMB? I thought that came in 4.10 .. or 4.11 or am I mistaken? I know we can add maps.. Adding your favorite map to the QMB.. .. but I thought we could also edit/create templates as well..

You can edit existing missions, add new missions for existing "maps" and add missions on "maps" that are currently not available in QMB.

Thanks for the clarification FC. What are those other characteristics JtD mentioned? I looked in the FMB and could not find them.. also.. I understand how doable the individual AI thing is now under the current way the QMB is modeled based on what Caspar said but after seeing what I am talking about based on what Wheels & I both have attempted to clarify would doing something like that inthe QMB be doable in the future with a template rewrite? Will the ability for us to write templates ourselves ever be a possibility?

JTD wants more Target options. As it is now we are limited to the following target options in the QMB.

• Airbase
  
• Armor
  
• Bridge,
  
• NoneA - Plus Sign
  (Advantage Player - Enemy planes in front of you)
  
• NoneD - Minus Sign
  (Disadvantage Player - Enemy planes behind you)
  
• NoneN - Equals sign
  (No Advantage - Head on Pass)
  
• Scramble

To fill the list completely requires a minimum of 14 templates. 7 red templates and 7 blue templates. To create any variety in any of the Target options just increases the number of templates needed. When you pick your choice of Target on the Main Page of the QMB the naming of the templates is how the QMB determines which one it needs to use so the player gets the expected experience. The QMB doesn't create the conditions when the player makes his choice on the Main page of the QMB that is up to me the template maker. If I create a Disadvantage template (NoneD) and then name it as an Advantage template (NoneA) the QMB will use it as an Advantage template.

I also want more Target options but it will require a minimum of two templates, one Blue and one Red, for each new Target option that is given to us. To keep the drop down Target list from becoming cluttered with greyed out unused options I would also think that the QMB would need to be altered so that it would only show the Target options that had templates for it in the map folder you were using.


I am fairly certain the Random features JtD is mentioning are hard coded into the AI routines and can't be altered via the FMB.


Wheels

Oh OK.. I was looking for options in the FMB..

After even more flying offline I have to say that 4.12 is the best incarnation of IL2 ever... and I seriously hope that whatever HSFX does with it's mod pack that everything in the stock sim and even the mod ai is not changed..

I have the felling that collisions between planes have increased since patch 4.12, especially in missions with tight formations. Has anybody noticed the same?

Yep, me too. Especially when I have two flights of 4 and 2 planes. #4 and #5 collide very often.

I noticed this too but it is not regular like I can create a mission any guarantee a collision. I have also noticed that if you tell theAI to loosen the formation it is less and I actually had it work to my advantage once when two planes maneuvering to nail me collided.

I was flying the Bombing mission with the new russian bomber and #3 flew right up my (#2) ass. Didn't even TRY to move.

Yes, there has been a marked increase of collisions between AI machines since the new patch, especially in DCG missions where larger bomber formations can be formed, or any mission where there are large bomber formations. It's an event that occurs on virtually every mission when there are enough aircraft in the mission. Sometimes entire formations are eventually wiped out, just by collisions other over the course of the mission.

Agreed, RAAF have AI in each of our server missions and the collision rate has gone up noticeably.

Is the collision rate related to pilot skill?

Check the AI il2 when it attacks transport or tank columns which have AA guns. They often crashed to the ground

I think there is something wrong with the ground attack behaviour of some planes. So far I only had this problem when flying the Il-2M and Il-2Type3 versions. Here is how it can be tested:

1. Go to QMB.
2. Select Allied side.
3. Select Smolensk map.
4. Select 4 Il-2M or IL-2Type3 for the players flight with default weapons or rockets.
5. Set tanks as targets.
6. Set altitude to 1000.
7. Fly the mission with autopilot.

The Il-2s will do a silly roll at low altitude and all crash into the ground.

I hope Team Daidalos can fix this.

i have this problem also with the il2 series 3 in murmansk campaign

At least with Ace level AI, this only seems to happen with one of the planes in the flight, and only if they collide with a hill while pulling out of a dive.

It might be a ground-sensing issue, in that the AI doesn't anticipate what the ground level at the place where the plane pulls out of its dive. Its possible that the problem could be fixed by making ground attack planes pull out of dives a bit earlier or by having the AI check on what the highest ground level is within 180 degrees and X meters of the plane's current course.

I wonder why the Il-2s are doing this strange roll-maneuver before attacking their targets. The Sturmovik is really the wrong plane for such aerobatics.

It has been acknowledged as a bug and is going to be fixed.

I have some IA problems too in my single player Pilot Career before 4.11 AI was pretty good to compare to 4.12 because I am a luftwaffe Stuka pilot and when I take of and get in position back of the flight leader for formation flight others ( I am number 2 generally in formation ) other Stukas always collide with me number 3 always wants to take my place in formation and collides me in air and destroys me in mission on my way is there any way to correct this AI behavior ? if I change position and let him took my place and when I activate the autopilot my plane automatically heads to get in formation where #3 is flying and colliding again.

Ai cv takeoff
 

Is it possible to set a flight of 4 AI planes to spawn on the CV deck and then take off?

When I attempted to do so, the 4 AI planes do spawn on the carrier but always in the default formation (diamond). Planes 2-4 have wings folded, which they promptly extend and start engines. However, only plane 1 actually takes off. Planes 2-4 remain at full power on deck.

I think the carriers island structure is causing a collision interference and thus they don't continue with the launch cycle. I also tried this with a flight of 2 AI planes and get the same results.

I could spawn flights of 1 AI at 1 minute intervals and have them circle until a flight is airborne, but the number of waypoint legs around the CV would be large and rather cluttered.

Any pointers greatly appreciated. This may be something only a Flying Nutcase video could solve. I really miss his videos.

I'm not having any issues such as you described. Maybe you can post the mission you are having problems with?

Aviar

To expand on the issue I'm having.

First, for IJN side; I have been able to get A5M, A6M2-21, and B5N2 to spawn a flight of 4 and take off ok.

For U.S. side, I've been able to spawn a flight of 4 F2-A2 buffalos and they take off in pairs even clipping through the island superstructure. But, a group of 4 devastators will not launch except for plane 1. I even tried a different CV, shifting from SARA to LEX.

I'm sure it is a user problem vice IL-2.

Here are the files. It's just a simple set of tests for launching AI from CV, assigning fighters to escort bombers, then landing them back on the CV, vice a well thought out mission.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur0dw4viei...oralseatd1.mis

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jesnwpvi4...td1.properties


As a test, I also tried placing TBM-3's on a generic IJN CV and they won't launch from it either regardless of 1, 2, 3 or 4 planes in the flight.

I tested the mission. The problem seems to be with the TBD-1. I tried using other 4-plane flights and they all took off fine (even the TBM-3). I tried the original mission in 4.11.1 and it worked fine.

I would say there may be some kind of bug with the TBD-1 in 4.12. It should be reported.

*BTW, when you create landing waypoints on a carrier, don't forget to 'Set' it to the carrier, like you do with the takeoff. Yours were not done correctly.

Aviar

Aviar,
Thank you for looking at this, and for the tip on setting the landing carrier. I never considered that point, and you're right the planes land on either carrier within the home base circle.

So I did some more testing and did eventually get the TBD-1 to launch 4 AI from the flight deck.

1st). U.S. CV Saratoga, I noticed that if the ship is within range of an enemy with her main guns, the guns traverse over the flight deck. I had 4 AI F4F-3's take off and plane 1 clips the forward gun mount destroying both the first plane and the gun. The 3rd plane to takeoff also hits the destroyed gun and flips into the air and crashes. Is it possible that the TBD-s sensed an interference with the gun and refused to launch plane 2, thus holding up plane 3 and 4 ?

2nd). I placed the generic CV with 4 TBD-1, 40% fuel, and a torpedo. Alongside it I put the IJN shokaku (making her same side) again with 4 TBD-1, 40% fuel, and a torpedo. On both ships the TBD-1's take off ok.

So it may well be user error as I suspected, Although I will have to keep the Saratoga farther away from enemy ships as she has a long range with her main guns.

You're 100% sure you got all 4 TBD-1's to take off? I couldn't get them to take off no matter what I tried. Can you post the mission where you got this to work?

Aviar

Very sure, all 4 took off. And I stated the wrong name for the CV with the big turrets, it is LEX vice SARA. Sorry for that error.

Anyway, below files you will see two sets of 4 AI TBD-1's take off from parallel CV's. If you sub the LEX for the SARA you will see them collide with the forward gun turret on take off.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur0dw4viei...oralseatd1.mis

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jesnwpvi4...td1.properties

Maybe you posted the wrong mission? First of all, there is only one flight of 4 AI TBD-1's taking off (from the Saratoga). There are none on the Lexington. You said that "...two sets of 4 AI TBD-1's take off from parallel CV's."

On top of that, the TBD-1's never take off at all. You have them spawning in at 4 minutes. They just sit there and none of them take off.

I ran the mission through the FMB and that's the results I got (TBD-1's never take off).

Aviar

In the test mission I posted, the two parallel CV are on the IJN side, Northern most home base. It was a test after all to see if I could get TBD's to take off. One CV is IJN, the other U.S. both on blue side.

Here are screen shots of two flights of 4 TBD-1 taking off from Generic U.S. CV.
- Carrier speed 33
- Fuel 40% with torpedo
(sorry if images are large)

1). Two flights of 4 spawn on deck at same time.
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps85b5d0bd.jpg

2). Lead flight 1 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps35564efd.jpg

3). 2nd flight 1 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...psb8c8de9f.jpg

4). 3rd flight 1 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps430711ee.jpg

5). 4th flight 1 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps4755452a.jpg

6). 1st flight 2 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...psd58c8d13.jpg

7). 2nd flight 2 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...psb229fed4.jpg

8) 3rd flight 2 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...psf4c83b63.jpg

9) 4th flight 2 takes off
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/a...psfc36e304.jpg

As you can imagine, I was thrilled to bits when I was able to make this happen. I may have to expand my experiments on this and see how many flights will spawn and launch.

Every day I learn something about IL-2. Such an epic game!

Post the mission, I didn't have problems in my mission.

Some problems are result of new formation option in mission. Original code is somewhat strange but it sort of worked. In DCG, I suppose, there is a lot of situation when flights are attached to each other. In old patches you could have something like this happen.
Above situation is obviously wrong but it works and there is no collision .
In 4.12 it happens often that 4a and 1b collide because wrong group formation is selected. It should be better in 4.12.1 but how many changes in formation code will be necessary is yet to be seen.

If you say so, but that's not the mission I downloaded. See the screenshot. There are no red flights coming from where you said (...the two parallel CV are on the IJN side, Northern most home base.) Plus when I test the mission there are no carriers with 8 TBD-1's spawning on them.

There are 2 flights of TBD-1's in D2 but they start in the air.

Anyway, if you're happy then that's all that matters.

Aviar