Trying to play allowing losses is horrible
 

First playthrough was easy enough on impossible. So trying to get out of the mindset of no loss and just enjoy the game.

And now that I can take losses this game feels like a 2 year old could play it. I kept checking over and over to make sure I was on impossible because it just felt so wierd how fast the game went and how easy it seemed.

I want more then anything to just enjoy the game while allowing losses but I mentally just can't twist my mind around it. At least there was a slight challenge to no loss.

Anyone have any mods to increase game to super impossible?

Did you complete impossible as soothsayer ? I'm playing it right now and got stuck few times (spider, Zalnaron, now undead invasion). I heard skald have a super easy playthrough. I agree that game should have more balanced difficulties and classes.

Same here, playing as a soothsayer and having not an easy time at all.
Certainly hard with the no loss approuch.

Yea soothsayer thus probably why Skald is making this feel too easy. Spider boss I was fortunate enough to figure out that you can cover the entire battlefield with ice fragments and spiders cant fall from sky thus no adds :]


Worst part of it all is I tell myself, "self, we are gonna take losses this time and we are just gonna enjoy the game." But I simply feel my hands reaching for escape key on 1 death to reload. I want to play with losses but this community kinda ruined the game with this no-loss nonsense and I bought right into it. Now I feel there is no going back lol.

Well, if the game is possible to finish without losses it is quite obvious that it can't be very hard to play otherwise.

If players keep insisting that they want a game that can be finished without losses, developers won't make the game so difficult.

Personally I think instead of worrying about losses in a battle, a player should worry about winning a battle.

I totally agree. I wish they would make it so difficult that this no loss nonsense goes right out the window.

After all its war stuff must die!!!!

This thread's name should have been "Playing the game without caring about losing units is horribly easy". :)

Because I don't think anybody is trying to lose units...

I agree that the game is super easy. With the exception of the Boss Spider of course, which is a quite imbalanced fight especially with Mage.

Partially agree, but in this case the game need much larger reserve. I simply dont have fun when I'm forced to visit 3-5 maps to replenish army after every battle :)

In my current playthrough, I had 4 fights with massive losses and a few with minor ones. But those no loss battles against deadly to invincible enemies I had to kill were challenging indeed and required different approach.

Skipping ahead zones perhaps can help make it a little more challenging but then your forced to go back and clean up more boring fights

I agree that resupplying armies would require redesign in that case.

I think the no-loss concept exist back in the days of the TL. But I didnt care about it until AP with the medal which increase leadership for no loss, and money in AP/CW were very tight, I must minimize loss to save some money for items.

It seems the developer design the game against no-loss. There is plenty of money, enemy heroes spam AOE with secondary effect just to make you take some loss

Really? How, man? I used to get literally milions of gold on impossible by the end of the game. I don't remember ever struggling with gold.

If that's the case, they sure made a very poor job. :) Even the spider can be no loss, and he is the hardest fight in the game.

Well I am scrapping the skald he is just waaaay too easy. I think I will try Viking and try to accept "minimal" losses while focusing heavy on attack defense and not much on magic.

I would love too find a way to make some of the ranged units not feel so worthless. I just feel like hunters and archers just dont feel worth it in my army compared to many better melee units.

I often finish AP with around 1 - 1,5m, but the time I can fight stack in Verona I have only 100k, not enough to fill my army with Knight and Horseman.

It's obvious that you haven't finish the game. Many Heroes and boss at the end spam AOE like Geyser, Armageddon, Ice Snake, Heat Focus. There are a few of them use Hypnosis.

And even worse for mage, who need to buy and destroy every piece of equipment just to have enough crystals :D

so your point being?
u can infinite money on AP if u know how;)

My point? Well, the OP state that the no-loss community ruin his gaming experience, so I want to explain a bit. First, in AP playing no loss is almost a must to progress at least in early game. This wasn't just for fun or challenging, it's a requirement. And this was when people talking so much about no-loss game. Also running back and forth between island to replenish troops is no fun. So the no-loss concept was somehow forced on us.

It seems the developers read the forum and feel insulted when people show off that they beat Impossible no-loss and in 7 days or so, I don't remember exactly. So they design WOTN so frustrating for anyone to play no-loss, everyone can beat Impossible but go for no-loss is painful. There are also a lot of money so people will forget about it and just play normally. Well, you can even try army of Gray Wolf, Hyena, Thorn and Dragonfly if you want to have some fun.

@blacklegionary
I must agree here. On start you have no gold for army, no skills/items to help you, no spells or any unit choice, so players are somehow forced to save that little they have (maybe not no-loss, but to struggle to save as much as possible). But after first visit to some shop with strong unit, or good supporting unit choice no-loss come easy and thought of loosing units just come low on list. If there are battle that took to long to revive fallen troops then it might get frustrating, but normally any battle when you know what you`re doing takes less then 5 turns, it`s not much of time waste.

As for developers now in WotN forcing players to lose units, it`s come in achievements that are totally useless ,but look shiny and we all know that today gamers like shiny things (Heartless = lose 10.000 units in game , God of war = defeat Loki in 10 turns hard to do without losses , Archanophobe = defeat spider in less then 15 turns also hard to do with no losses). So now there are some kind of reward for players that lose units. Bad thing is those rewards are totally useless in gameplay.

well it's not frusttratin the no loss thing however most fights are just to plain easy which makes it very boring

the only real threat for no loss is

AHriman
Uladaar
spider boss
the ghoul at cemetary
zalnaor or w/e his name is
and 1 other i forgot about

they are insane fights well i wouldn't mind those
but for the first 3 the lack of unit composition really sucks

and for the latter
those are the only fights that could be hard

rest of the wandering monster is just plain easy

i remember with my skald just being braindead with using the song vs undead
when i fight animals or w/e


they really should spice up the mid/late game and PLEASE BY DEAR GOD give me some WANDERING heroes and not all those heroes that are quest regerated or guest related

they could really spice things up before u can move through somewhere

WHICH i really like from TL:AP

and as for best racial army droids all the way:P

Have you finish the game?

I really dislike no loss in WotN because in early game there is only one strategy... save and load. I quit my impossible game and start again on normal without using load at all.

will do soon;)
not much time atm

Another way is to just artifically impose restrictions on yourself regarding skill usage or unit usage.

Or, to find a way to speed run through the game (map the optimal path).

Another is to use a much smaller army and/or restrict yourself to only one type ala impy's solo black dragon challenges.

After first island i thought this game will be really super challenging but i hardly can finish it atm, due to it being super easy mode, im playing 3-4 fights/ day to not get bored.
What would be cool is challenge mode, very limited resources - u work with what u get, story mode for this could be nonexistent aslong as fights are awesome. Boss fights should implement WAY more mechanics, i mean there is plenty to do here. Boss could have diffrent resistances that switch per round, or healr itself if u dont do certain type of dmg, counterattack in even rounds and cast magic in uneven rounds, spawn diffrent type of adds, that lets say 1of3 heals u on attack, other 2 apply diffrent debuff, terrain exploding if u stay in one place for 3 , other forms of terrain alternations, like blocking off melee units, mechanics with shields that have diffrent effects if u burst them they explode or heal boss so u haev to stop doing dmg in this round. THere are unlimited ideas for awesome boss fights with complex mechanics. In this challenge mode you would have to fight with fixed spells/units to certain degree, and they would change every 10 battles or smth like that. You would have to make decision if u want to get more troops or upgrade skills, runes would come from gold mostly, items and spells also increased in price so every upgrade should be well thought out decision. Well i would love smth like challenge mode in this game.

I agree with this. I've always wanted someone to finish the game with just Peasants.

Yeah, it was somewhat disappointing to find out that they do not affect gameplay in any way. They could have thought of something here (like a discount for viking units after defeating the undead spider, because you are well known for this feat).

@Nevar: A playthrough with just peasants sounds hilarious. But I guess with soothsayer and timeless + big number of buffs (as soon as timeless is patched to actually work) this should work fine, as soon as you get the good spells. But it sounds extremely boring.

True, I expect the player would get bored at some point. Would be hilarious for a while, though.

I agree with restrictions but restricting time in a game is most def. not the way for me. The fact that their point system at end is based off of time just baffles me. WTF wants to rush through a game they paid for and get it over fast? I wont get started on this since i already made a post on it.

But I agree we could make restrictions to other parts of the game.

@ckdamascus
But in AP/CW any1 could make interesting runs because you could kite around and decide : OK now i only use archer units (for 100% crit play) , or i use only stack of black dragons and see how far i can get . . . Here there is no kiting, and by time you get to peasants/black dragons or any other unit picks almost half game is already done. Why would then players chose to go some particular run after all that time.

@gunnyhighway
Here is one problem i wonder about for long time. Why make so limiting end game score in game with so much choices ? Time (in DAYS) , hero lvl and quests finished , WTF why not calculate time in hours passed not round it in whole days , no regard to rage lvl`s , or to amount of dmg dealt with units/rage/spells (warrior get bonus in score for more dmg with rage , paladin for dmg by units , mage for dmg by spells or something). This version of end game score is to simplified and constricted for game of this randomness.
End screen shows bunch of different information, and take in consideration for score only 3. And this is kept since theLegend, very bad politics.

There are no fights post-4 islands that are threats to no-loss. As soon as you have Rune Mages and Paladins (or Inquistors, but that's slower), you have infinite Ressurects that require no mana or rage. As long as a stack doesn't get completely destroyed, you can bring them back up, it's just a slow process.

The problem the OP is having is that he's exploiting the system and then claiming not enough challenge. Ok, fine, stop exploiting the system. Fight the Spider Boss the normal way, for example, rather than trying (and succeeding) to figure out a way to stop the spider summons.

How am I exploiting and where did I say I was? Sorry I dont use the rune mages if thats what your hinting at

You're exploiting it by finding a way to stop the spiders from being summoned, as I already stated. The fight is designed to work by the boss summoning spider reinforcements. If you deliberately set out to find a way to stop it from doing that, you are exploiting the encounter.

There's nothing wrong with doing that, if you choose to, but if you're going to take such an approach to the game, you can't simultaneously complain about the game being too easy. You've gone out of your way to make it easy.

No, he's not. He didn't cheat, he used what the game had to offer.

@gunnyhighway Don't worry buddy, there are just some people on these forums that just HATE people like us because we find the game too easy. They love to taunt and troll around.

You mean I thought of a genius way to use STRATEGY in a STRATEGY game?

Yea not sweating it. Ive been to war and if I could use ice spikes in IRAQ to kill people and save lives and in return some terrorist says to me "bro you cheating"
I would reply "never played kings bounty bro?"

Rules in war are for the losing side.

Fortunately, this is not war, but a computer game. Supposed to entertain people and all that.

But apart from that, I understand this position. Sure, some encounters may be tricky, but that still leaves the majority of the game, and there are certainly parts where most or all of the fights feel trivial. And similarly, you can stop using overpowered or unbalanced gameplay mechanics, but to be honest, there are a lot of those, and while self-imposing restrictions may provide a challenge, it would be more interesting if you actually had to find such solutions sometimes. To change that, a mod would probably have to alter more than just enemy strength.

Oh, and for the record, I think covering the ground with ice spikes for the spider fight is a funny strategy. And apparently, the devs implemented this solution in case every cell was occupied... they could as well have cleared a few cells of anything and spawned spiders. While somewhat cheesy, I say props go to gunnyhighway for finding it in the first place.

By all means, point to where I used the term "cheat". Well, you can't, of course, because I didn't.

Sure, if that's the way you want to phrase it. You found a way to change the way the encounter was designed to take place. And you did so in a way that made the encounter vastly easier than it was designed to be. If you want to label that as "strategy", sure, be my guest. But your "strategy" is responsible for lowering the the difficulty of the encounter significantly. If your game is all about using such "strategy" to lower the difficulty, turning around and complaining about the low difficulty is extremely silly. Stop exploiting - sorry, using "strategy" on the encounters and you'll find they are significantly more challenging.

So by your definition I expect you to not use any spells that buff your units because they would infact make the encounter easier then its intended. So get your finger off that stone skin button.

Moving on...

pwnt.:cool:

I'm not sure why you insist on being so obtuse on this one. Do you honestly believe that the way the Spider Boss fight is intended to take place is by covering the entire ground so that spiders can't spawn? Because that's a ludicrous position to take. You found a way to do that, and yes, it's an impressive way to handle the situation. Are you trying to deny that it makes the fight a lot easier than it would be if you didn't cover the ground? Because again, that would be a ludicrous position to take.

Your insinuation that there is no difference between what you are doing and casting stone skin is just idiotic. You might as well claim that using Artificer to create a cheap, upgradeable item that you can exploit for runes, crystals and XP is no different than buying a mana potion. It's hard to believe someone could actually put forth such a stupid argument, but there it is.

What you are effectively complaining is that you are doing your absolute best to make the game as easy as possible, and by doing so, the game has become too easy. The solution, as multiple people have pointed out, is to stop trying so hard to make the game as easy as possible. If such simple logic offends you, then by all means, go back to pretending that you are having no effect on the game's difficulty level.

Seems you are getting quite angry, why? Try to calm down a bit.

You are at best poor at logic and at worst a hypocrite. Proof?

You say the battle was not intended to be played that way. Oh, yea? Because You say so? Your ipse dixit is not an argument.
The battle is not intended to be played in a certain way - it is to be played in any way the player sees fit. If the player want to use spells X, Y, Z, or unit X,Y, Z, it's ENTIRELY up to the player. If the developer didn't want spell X to be available in that fight, they would have DISABLED that spell for the fight like they did with the rage skills. Casting Stone Skin or other powerful spells is just as intended as casting that spell in the boss fight.

I'm not the least bit angry, but thanks for your concern.

Actually, I'm quite good at logic. Unfortunately, your argument boils down to "if you can do it, they must have intended for you to do it", which is a stupid argument. Again, one only point to such examples as the infinite runes/crystals/XP exploits available to realize that there are quite a few things you can do in the game that almost certainly weren't intended to be done in the game.

Regardless, this will be my last post to you, and you shall be added to my ignore list, as you are incapable of having a discussion without attempting personal attacks. Regardless of your physical age, you are extremely juvenille, and I'm wasting my time responding - which I shall now cease to do.

trollness
 

i agree with bhruic, gunny highway, i imagine you were or are a marine? if you were infantry hoorah! buut, don't pull the war card in a pointless game forum! c'mon man! if you were a marine grunt you have nothing to prove. Alright back on topic, Bhruic or whatever, has made some cool bugfixes and been constructive in the community, while Tiberiu has been a great troll, you sound like such a smug, low self esteem loser who thinks he's smart because he plays a computer strategy game. I don't think i'm smart if I play this game, there are usually set tactics that everyone uses, not original to you or me, and even if there was an original tactic, it still doesn't mean you're smart so i think you're a loser for trying to sound like one, which shows you aren't. (inferiority complex). Now, people complain about the game being easy on impossible, well, don't use the exploits! YOU can make the game hard if you want by not using wanderer scrolls, artificer, mods, etc. Although the game's developers might (maybe) have had more success if the game was more balanced without cheat options. Anyways, no pedantic talks from my side, just a lil common sense ass chewing.

Not pulling any marine card. What you learn in real life translates into the person you are, am I right? Sure its a video game I get that I enjoy it as such. My point was just to make it clear that strategy is using all your resources to solve a problem.

Strategy - Definition - A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a specific goal. Strategy is all about gaining (or being prepared to gain) a position of advantage over adversaries or best EXPLOITING emerging possibilities. As there is always an element of uncertainty about the future, strategy is more about a set of options ("strategic choices") than a fixed plan. It derives from the Greek "στρατηγία" (strategia), "office of general, command, generalship".[1]

And telling me what the game designers wanted when they created that spell is pure speculation. For all you know the developer had a hard time with the boss and came up with that strategy himself and said "wow this is a great idea" how do I know this? I can speculate too :]

Again I am over this conversation. Having this argument is like trying to speak to a liberal without punching him in the face.

wessep
 

yo, so i know who i'm talking to, are you or were you a marine? and infantry? just curious, not arguing. Yeah man play how you want! i think most people would agree that balance is key in a good game, just the right difficulty level options! however, i think this game has fluctuating balances, like in the beginning it's kinda hard, for soothsayer it might be harder, if you use certain troops and stuff, the game can be very little challenge, etc. Personally, to me it's bad game design, i think most people enjoy a constant and fluid difficulty level with maybe a few spikes in between. I don't use rune mages for example, nor artificer cuz it takes the fun out for me and i bet most people without even knowing it have less fun too that way. I know what you mean by strategy and what not but since you're not a loser in arguments like tiberiu, i'll give you my opinion: if you want good strategy, play the game harder, that's why you're on impossible and you wanted a challenge, so that means try soothsayer, no rune mages, artificer, scrolls, etc. and there you will need to use better strategy if you want a challenge. Is this good in a game? no! it's because it was not well designed, you shouldn't have to gimp your character for challenge, in a good balanced game, you can min-max and still be challenged without it being impossible.

HMM 261 got out 2002

alright bro, well it's good to talk to a brother, alpha 1/4 raiders. out 2004, who knows maybe i went in your helo at one point! hope you get the desired difficulty man.

well you have to admit that even without cheats/exploits the game is still to easy

just a simple comparison

in TL: AP I really had fun on impossible cause it felt challenging even if u already won the game and stuff or want to try a different character

but in wotn it's just about killing massive undead stacks and then some small continents of other stuff

but by that time you will have such a impressive army/skill/spell choice
that later islands just don't matter
IN TL and AP i think the islands were better constructed in terms of difficulty

in wotn you mainly have to kill undead stacks which tend to be very tedious after a while and boring it really doesn't give u a feeling that your progressing

My take on it is that they gave us too many tools, and too many ways to exploit those tools when it comes to resurrecting units. There are very few fights that I've done where I haven't lost a single unit. Mainly that's only happened on the Freedom Islands, and that's because I didn't figure out how to get there until after Demonis.

So most fights involve losses. It's much too easy to regain all those losses with units such as Paladins and Inquisitors, especially when mixed with Rune Mages. If there were no way for units to resurrect units, and there were no way to gain effectively infinite mana, most fights would involve some losses.

That doesn't really address the question of how difficult the game is, but a lot of the perception of difficulty comes from unit loss.

The other side of the equation is how to determine how difficult something should be. Take the Spider Boss, for example. Lots of people had trouble even beating it, let alone doing so with no-loss. And because of that, the perception came into play (before ways of exploiting the fight, and before the discovery of Trolls) that the fight was "too hard". Trying to find a middle ground is difficult when people have different expectations of what they consider "hard".

tl;dr version - a lot fewer ways to resurrect units would go a long way to making the game seem harder, but could make it more tedious.

I don't really think resurrection is the issue. A big part of the 'easiness' of the game is that the areas don't escalate well. Consider that at each breakpoint (Island 1, island 4, post Demonis) you have a 'gate' that prevents you from going further. Up until that gate you have a certain strength of enemies, roughly scaled by zone. Demonis has larger stacks than Greenwort.

The problem is that these stack sizes are not making a very good curve. All the armies pre-demonis are TINY in comparison to Demonis. You can clear out that entire area with basically no problem once you get some levels, because the fights aren't scaling with you.

Or think of it like this: Let's say it takes 5 level 10 fights to get to level 11. Or, 5 fights of a specific level to get to the next level. There are like 200 level 30 fights to 35 fights! Then none of levels 36 to 43, and then some at level 44 onward. You basically have to fight these 'easy' lower level fights for a long time before you are given any challenge again.

Afterall, I don't think anyone will really call the first four islands too easy. It's just that there are gigantic stretches of the game that aren't particularly hard because the enemies aren't getting larger.

I'd have to disagree. When I first got to Greenwort, the fights were generally fairly difficult. The same was true when I moved to Arlania and Verlon Wasteland. I didn't have any losses, thanks to resurrection exploits, but I often had a few rounds of resurrecting at the end of each fight indicating I'd lost quite a few units. Certainly, I wouldn't say I was in danger of actually losing any of those fights, but I wasn't simply steamrolling the enemy.

The fights in Demonis were substantially harder, but I hadn't figured out how to get to the Freedom Isles, so hadn't got all the XP from the fights there. When I finally got there, yes, all the fights were quite easy, but I'd over-leveled them by doing the Demonis/Hades stuff. Had I done those in the reverse direction, I suspect the former would have been easier, and the latter harder. I suppose I should include Merlassar in there, as it was mixed in with the Greenwort/Arlania/Verlon stuff.

I suppose part of the issue is the very mobility that implies. You have a lot more areas to work with at that point in the game, so you aren't forced into fights you might not win. This, of course, is especially compounded by the ability to fly - giving you the ability to skip any fight you don't want to fight. So you end up in a situation where you've got superior resurrecting troops, with large amounts of fights to choose from, in a situation where you aren't roadblocked for quite some time. That definitely is going to give the impression of being significantly easier.

Well now I understand why you say the Ghoul in Greenwort is a threat to no-loss. In my second playthrough, I moved around Darion, Merlessar and the Isle of Freedom and I see that Greenwort, Verlon Wasteland and Western Isle have roughly the same enemy strength. Merlessar, Eastern Isle and Arlania is the same, too and stronger than these previous areas but not much. So if you do them before Demonis but after finish all Darion stuff, it's not much different.

You were right about mobility, there are many easy fights to pick and you aren't forced to fight "Impossible" fight.

Sure, because at that point they were level appropriate. If you just do Darion, and then go to Demonis, it is a generally difficult progressions.

This is the point. All the fights in Freedom Isles and Merlessar are 'before' Demonis in difficulty. And if you do them in order of difficulty, you end up doing a huge amount of really easy fights. By skipping the easy ones, you just artificially make the rest of the game harder.

I stopped using Runemages after doing a chunk of Darion, because they completely sucked the fun out of anything. Didn't use any resurrectors until Demonis, when I picked up some Demonologists. So, yeah. At the end of all things, the game is still very easy and ress or not makes no difference. It's just one way of arriving at ease.

Well, yes, because the game design seems to indicate you should do the Freedom Isles and Merlassar before Demonis.

Well, not, that's not the point I was making. My point was that they were easy because I did Demonis first. Had I not done Demonis (and Hades), those fights would have been more challenging simply because I wouldn't have had the extra levels from Demonis/Hades. And had I done Freedom Isle before Demonis/Hades, yes, the latter would have been easier, but probably not substantially so.

If I recall correctly, you are using a mostly level 5 army composition (dragons figure prominently, don't they?). Yes, that's another way of making things easier. Resurrection abilities aren't the only way that can be accomplished, just the most visible.

Basically, the units in the game aren't well balanced. Unit resurrection abilities again rank high in that list, but there are a lot of other areas. I suspect that if someone were to try a playthrough and (past the first 4 islands) only play with level 1-2 units, it would be considerably more challenging.

At this point, however, barring a complete rebalance of units/spells/skills/abilities taking place, the only way to make things "harder" is to give the AI more units - which is only a marginal improvement - or make the AI make better decisions - which is also only a marginal improvement.

Summoned units count towards the heartless achievement. While i was in verlon wasteland i used royal thorns (and summoned lots of thorn warriors/hunters) and got the achievement, without ever losing a "real" unit.

@Kel
You`re f...ing kidding me !!!
In previous games battle to improve/suppress items didnt count toward Strategy medal (+lds) , or did summoned units counted toward Trapper medal , and summons also gave only 1/4 of mana for transmutate skill.
And now they are viabile way to get some achievement, what a load of crap.
But since achievements are totally useless anyway, it doesnt matter does it.

What can I say... This is such an unfortunate and distasteful phrase. Speaking of killing people and wars this lightly is very disturbing.

On the topic: Even though I haven't finished the game yet (so my experience may change later), I'm finding the game's difficulty to be similar as the previous KBs:

o - Enemies: Bosses, you need to prepare and adapt for them as usual; the other groups, you just grind for xp and gold, but once you find a strategy that works, you rarely need to change it.

o - Money: You could argue, like I read somewhere, that in previous versions you didn't have as much gold as you do now, at the start. But, as a offset, here you are restricted to a certain kind of units for some time and, some, in lower supplies. There's also not a hell of a lot to buy: Being so limited in the places you can go, there are fewer shops available. Later on, money was never a problem.

o - Items: I would say that they make the game more difficult now. Not because of their power that is more or less the same as always. But because, this time around, you don't have wives/companions that can equip them.

o - Spells/Rage abilities: Barring balance problems that will, hopefully, be corrected: Same as before. The more you have, the easier it becomes.

o - Units: Same as Spells/Rage abilities.

A note on balance: Even though KB always provided ways to take advantage of powerful combos (which I find it fun!), this time the game feels as it was not fully tested. Rune mages break the game, Creator and Artificer are very powerful, etc.

tl;dr: This is a KB game. Once bugs have been fixed and glaring balance problems corrected, difficulty is what you make of it.

your examples a re bit touchy

first you say the res abilties making it to easy
(there are some builds that don't even need RESU or level 5 units)

the units are just okay ( only wotn made some mistakes by making some overpowered)

you should check in the AP forum where impy and some others tried finishing the game with low level units and that is even possible(although not in a no loss run)

I really find it very amusing how people keep saying units are unbalanced and stuff

but if you are here from the beginning start of TL
you could gradually see how people got into the heck of things and really made things easier!
but as today not alot of new stuff is being invented so they put some new OP units in and pretty imbalance the enemy strenght


and if you don't believe me just look at the early stages of TL when people found out how to get this game as no loss (which was then still unheard of)
then with KB:ap they put some new stuff in and some new combo's but pretty much the same

whereas in wotn the game is badly written there are hardly new stuff being invented (the viking race isn't so great) I find it kinda funny that we are forced to use crappy viking units for 4 islands long
whereas when u go beyond that people will still use their combo's what they used before in AP and TL
and prolly for the most medicore people they will just use the paladin/ingi combo because it easy and hardly effect morale penalties and therefore also not making the human race inferior

I mean people have finished TL:Ap:CW with one stack of a unit(dragons were most famous)

I bet people can do so again in WOTN if you had the ability of kiting or at least give some better unit selection

But you are forced to use the viking race LITERALLY and even with such a weak race your just obliterating the undead. There is hardly a chance of fighting vs other stacks unless u are really dedicated on finishing this game a sa viking(which requires a lot of traveling back for the right units of vikings


I will bet that most experts from TL/ap/cw will say WOTN is the worst installment of KB

I actually liked being forced to use the Vikings. They didn't seem that bad to me. Also, if I still retained most of the Vikings, they would be arguably borderline overpowered for me (Viking/Warrior class) due to the damage buffs they get.

I like the "easier" play. I tend to play more for fun/fast builds and there is a lot more room to do so in this game. I used to have to pre-scan lots of Armored Princess games just to find the right items to do my insane combos in Impossible.

Here, I am still using my first game and didn't have to scan and I'm still getting a lot of great items/combos.

It is funny how people are semi-complaining about the maps/islands. That was the biggest problem with Armored Princess. In some cases, you were literally stuck and the ONLY way to progress was to kite a very very very hard to kite enemy, fight a nearly impossible to no-loss fight, or just redo your game. And you had to do the islands in a somewhat specific order.

You now have the option to go to "hard" mode (skip the 'trainer' mid-islands), or take it easy and have a smoother progression.

Seems like you have more options now. If you want it hard, go for it. If you want it easy, go for it.

Since it is so easy to "cheat" or mod the game (I never did though), it isn't like there is some standard of difficulty that is getting muddied. So, anything that allows more options for mid-progression seem good to me.

Armored Princess had such a finite number of enemies and items that if you didn't do it in the right order, you could end up never getting some items 'freed' (50 fights) and you had to max EVERY battle to round 10 to make use of some Medal 3 rewards. It was good and bad... probably bad for new comers who weren't as hardcore.

I haven't beaten the game yet (level 42ish or so, just found the Kordar areas).

I just restarted my hard viking game because it was way too easy. Both the Pirate islands were ridiculously easy, armies were either very easy or easy, same for the elven island, thats 3 islands that offered no challenge what so ever. My Evil beholders were critting for 16k, at the start of each battle I crippled the enemy by casting Gudida's rage and Lord of the north on every enemy unit. Playing soothsayer now in impossible, haven't lost a fight yet but a bit more challenging, at least the first island was.

You no loss people are what ruined the game to begin with. If you guys where not insisting that you cannot play with out losses...the game could be made harder.

LOL

It's mostly the NO-lossers that are complaining lol

your argument is really laughing my ass off hahah

it's because the NO lossers that the game got more challenging to begin with so show some respect

@dbgager
You my friend just went full retard. No loss impossible game is hardest way to play, and you say without it game could get harder. Pls elaborate your thought train, because you make no sense at all.
How can something be improved without testing it`s limits, and that is no loss plays are about testing what crazy things you can do. Which in other hand caused devs to make WotN harder in gameplay with so many limitations and battles that you have to lose units in.

Did the devs say that they are reacting to no-loss people? Why does everyone assume they care about it at all? They probably got some feedback about general perception of difficulty (presumably from the Russian forum) and reacted to that, is the no-loss crowd very vocal there?

Personally, I find both sides annoying: the people who insist that you have to be able to do a no-loss run and the people who like to tell the no-loss people that their efforts are stupid.

[shrugs] I'm a pragmatist. I only did no loss because it was inherently necessary in Armored Princess.

It isn't quite that necessary now though but I still prefer doing it, but I'm not going to mind THAT much if I lose a few troops to bosses.

I bet you do watch the forums all the time and peak in on the information that experts post here to HELP you make your game easier

for without the walktroughs and stuff posted here by certain people
I bet you wouldn't even think of a no-loss
The no loss concept came from people bragging on the forums since who would be the best

hence forth the no loss fastest run was born on TL and later in AP
Those people made things interesting to see how fast or how easy u could finish the game
i bet half the things you know, you wouldn't even find out on yourself it because other people done it already and posted it here

so no i think u are certainly whining about the people who say no loss is stupid
because the no loss people only post information or go in with people who say it;s stupid or how it can be done

The game was never challanging. KBAP/CW for example is a joke, if left unedited.
TL a bit more challanging because of no medals but still very easy game.

WotN the only challanging thing in the game is Boss Spider. And he can be beaten with trolls with so much ease that almost turns off the challange.

Keep dreaming. But yes, his argument is poor. It's not players fault, it's developers fault for not being able to do some proper balancing and maybe to do some proper difficulty levels for a game.

[QUOTE=ckdamascus;481801][shrugs] I'm a pragmatist. I only did no loss because it was inherently necessary in Armored Princess.

:confused:

Was it "necessary"? I don't really remember it so. I have the game installed and it surely isn't necessary to lose no units. You really don't even need the medal strategist for some extra leadership, in AP there's no Boss Spider that must be defeated early so.... definetly NOT necessary, which would imply that that is the only way. Maybe you need to use better dragon abilities and cast better spells? :)

You are making a whole lot of assumptions. Most of the information I got from the forums that I actually used in the game is info about quests and bugs (apart from that, some technical questions about burning etc). The gameplay is not that hard to figure out. I still don't care about no loss, but have virtually no losses in the game anyway - if it's possible without much effort, why not. I would gladly take your bet about half the things I know. And I don't see me whining about one side or the other.
This is the last time I'll reply to anything written in a tone like yours.

[QUOTE=tiberiu;481866]Haha, clearly I needed to learn how to play better to learn how to lose units and survive! :)

Actually, I didn't play it on loss mode in Impossible.

I suppose in hindsight, I could have done fine with allowing some losses across boss fights (like losing 50 archers in the final battle against baal).

I think early on it is important for the leadership medals. If you can somehow beat a Verona guardian with little leadership without using a tedious/boring strategy, I'd love to see a video of that.

Later on, when you have a lot more gold, the right skills for a solid strategy, and right units, you definitely have more leeway in allowing losses.

Yes i took alot of assumptions but that because i was here from the start(TL) with inventing stuff out

I saw KB growing up till wotn

and my tone wasn't being offensive to u
but you were the one that said it's annoying not me:)(e.a your previous post)

personally i don't care wether you play no loss or not but if u need help i will be there that's all

and as for KB being easy
Thank the people that helped growning KB and those who don't know who(i mean from start)

check out
impy/loreanangelicus/fatt_shade/dgdobrev/unicornxp/Zechnophone and possibly some others i forget

and this part is mainly for you tiberius
you say thigs are easy but i'm quite sure u read all out tips of getting no losses and how to do things as fast as possible
The people i mentioned above made things alot easier because they did some crazy stuff or knew the fastest route to take

and if u say KB:AP was easy

try some of impy's challenges
and i don't see you doing that
Beat KB:AP with 14 fights show me that and I will believe everything is easy for you

Don't kid yourself you didn't invent anything. Because there is nothing that can be invented in a KB game. You can only use what the game has to offer to you. You can discover useful thing, but never invent. Electricity wasn't invented it was discovered. Electricity exists in nature without anybody inventing it just like casting Plague on Black Dragons isn't inventing strategy for casting spells on a unit that should be in fact immune to spells. I was the first to point out on the forums (with old account not this) to cast Plague on Black Dragons, that makes me big inventor? When you kill 1000 bears with 1 royal snake you didn't invent nothing. You just exploited poorly designed game mechanichs thats all.

Lol, my son. Arguments such as "i'm quite sure" do not interest me. They are simple fallacies that don't have any place in a debate. I don't care about what you are sure or not. You think yourself what you want and live in your fantasy world where you're the only one who knows how to rape KB games to death. No, in fact I was very little active on the forums until recently because I don't need walkthroughs to play easy games.

They did nothing special if you ask me. I raped the game without help from anybody. I am just mature enough not to brag all the time on the internet like you do. Stop your fallacies please. :)

This is preposterous. Crappy exploits do not interest me. Impy's challanges were not fun at all to do and made absolutely no sense. I only go for challanges that are not based on silly exploits/cheats/mods and that do not involve reloading 1698 times until you finally kite that Map for Verona.

No, my son. I'll give you a challange. Actually play hardcore Diablo 2 style any challange that you think is hard. This means without reload. Reloading is embarassingly noobish I won't go into details. All your "fantastic" accomplishments were done with Savescumming and by using exploits or cheats (like savescanner). So you havent actually played the game as it's intended.

I named two extreme positions (both seen on the forum) that I personally find annoying and not reasonable. You assumed lots of things about me.

There is no need to thank anyone except possibly the devs for KB being easy. I'm not using some grand, brilliant strategy that I learned from someone on the forum.

sure then how come the devs didn't know some things that could be played
too lazy to find the quote now
but they said "people seem the find things and do things that EVEN WE didn't think of"

so all your points are invalid

and as for d2 i play tl 2 hardcore mode so die once u die end of game

i play any game on hardest mode and finish it so and i read forums to see how people did it and sometimes learn from their experience

2bad we can't turn back time now
but let's see if the people didn't post those things on KB let's see how far most people would have gotten;)

and as for impy doing 14 fights
he didn't use any cheats or whatsoever (except maybe the kbscanner for that game don't know about that)

game is 14 fights with droids only and kiting so if you think that is cheating sure :) he played very legit

WOW, is this the latest challenge - to upset maximum number of people on the forums Tiberiu?
We had a few trolls here in the past, mostly advertising types, but you are by far the most controversial.
I am sorry for the wall of text, but hopefully I 'll manage to talk some sense into him.

1) In "stupid no-loss concept" thread which you started yourself you tell us in your very first post - I'm a smart gamer. A few posts later we find out - you're heroes 3,4,5 PRO, chessmaster, and later on openly ...wait for it... I'm smart and pro at games. Over the years I do not recall anyone acting this way, certainly not good old "dinosaurs" of the forums, why it has to be you - some unknown newcomer? Well, they say wise men are humble, and it appears Tiberiu you have still a long way to go. To top it up, quite amusingly, In thread "Modding higher difficulty" you ask - how to open KFS file? Well, mr. smart telling everyone to get the strategy, there is search function on 1C forums and Google has it to..
2) What is this obsession with calling everyone son? More than once you were asked directly how old you are - no response. Not only it's difficult to prove your age on internet forum, you also do not know the age of other posters, only assuming they're considerably younger than you. Also, this is an international forum with many posters having their first language other than english. They are most probably aware of most common use of expression - son. If you want to enjoy a fruitful discussion with them, then fine language nuances are better left out, don't you think? It's all common sense, but you go on stubbornigly defending your position, your rights etc. and create tension.
3) You openly say in "stupid no-loss concept" thread that the whole concept is wrong, stupid and retarded, there is no denying it, sorry. What is the point of such controversial statement from self proclaimed very mature and very smart gentleman?? You say you cannot offend a concept, but you've annoyed people who attempted to incorporate this concept into their gameplay for their pleasure. Maybe we help ourselves with two examples here in order to get through to you. One - You approach a group of guys enthusiastically working on their cars over the weekend attempting to make them go faster. Now you tell them the whole concept of making cars faster is stupid, because there are speed limits on the road anyway...Still nothing? Number two - Tiberiu walks into the club on friday midnight and starts preaching to everyone - The whole concept of drinking and smoking is stupid, wrong and retarded!!!, there are no benefits for your body and you will die younger!!! Now if you're lucky, no one will talk to you for the rest of the evening, but maybe someone will slap you:-). Understand that people generally feel attached to their countries, families, hobbies etc.and even no-loss runs which may have provided them with lots of fun and it was their decision. Now no one is going to call the police here, but it is annoying and unnecessary approach from you.
4) generally speaking, why do you start all these controversies anyway? If you want to gain respect and recognision of the community, you do it by being helpful, share the ideas, jokes, strategies... There are quite a few players who posses considerable knowledge of the KB series, but no one laughs at newbies questions, or tell them as you - get more strategy...Well, as you say, we have to respect your Freedom of speech? More like endure it..
5) there seem to be a confusion about invincible fights & impossible difficulty. First, games these days cannot yet properly evaluate strength of your army. They would have to consider your units, spells + levels, rage , your items, known strategies, enemy army composition, your game style, your expertise etc etc. And it would have to be constantly updated by developers since they cannot possibly discover all strategies, combos, exploits during beta testing. I think in KB most probably just comparison of leadership of the opponents decides how the enemy & outcome of encouter is evaluated. Simply put seeing enemy marked invincible just means his leadership is XXX bigger than yours. That does not automatically mean it cannot be beaten, or even beaten no-loss, it just means it will be very,very difficult. Since XXX thresholds are not dynamically evaluated per individual player, it has to reflect strength of the enemy stack for average gamer (it is only logical - you cannot pick newbies or veteran perception of difficulty to be shown to all game players). Now armed with knowledge - quoting you:
Basically, if one is able to finish a game about huge fights and combats, many labeled as "invincible" and he is able to win without losing anything, this means that the game is unbalanced and poorly designed - we know you are incorrect. Due to limitation of today's software strength of enemy stack represent its strength percepted by average gamer. If you can win in better way, good for you, you are either better than average player or using exploits etc.
Also, the reason why seemingly bombastic expressions are used to describe difficulty - impossible etc.. is merely a marketing move. Developers could have called difficult fights - hopeless, unlikely etc, but that somehow does not cut it, does it? Now when you win fight marked as impossible , that releases some endorphines doesn't it?
6) I guess as I am typing all this I may write my own perception of no-loss concept. Without using any exploits, cheats etc. I think it represents cherry on cake for very advanced players. You could also call it - one of the voluntary expert end-game modes. I emphasize that not using exploits etc. otherwise anyone without serious knowledge of the game can do it. I would like to know whether it was originally idea of developers or players. Now let's agree that every game in order to be successful has to provide for all players - newcomers, casuals, regulars, veterans. Providing fun and challenge for first three groups is relatively easy - if not much else, there is always higher difficulty for them to look forward to. But what about veterans? Things are more complicated since KB is single player only, so no Diablo 2 style ladders, HMM3 battles.. How do you achieve longevity of your product? Also, KB series look pretty much the same for years now, so group of the veterans is very large to start with, and surely some attempted no-loss on their very first WOTN playthrough. From this point of view, discovery of no-loss concept is probably players-invented-free-gift-for-developers which they should only embrace. Why embrace?One would have thought that developers realize few things:
a) no-loss concept is something to look forward to once you complete impossible diffulty, as if it was another difficulty level. Non-compulsory as with all other diff. levels. It is straitforward concept in comparison to various other self-imposed challenges.
b) it requires minimum effort from developers (just to make sure it is possible, but very difficult) and increases overall playtime- dream come through
c) developers have to provide for veterans, because veterans are looked upon by players looking for motivation and game possibilites and tactics
d) later on,taking away no-loss option is a sensitive issue. Give a guy who was driving corvette for years some small city car...
e) increased playtime per player increases overall player satisfaction with product and increases probability of buying related products in future
Sadly, I have to express my dissatisfaction with WOTN regarding No-loss. I admit I have not had much time to play so far and understand the first island has been done with all the characters already, and then the difficulty goes downhill. But the amount of RNG required to do first island no-loss is discouraging. And whose bright idea it was to place almost identical seven necro heroes on the first island? Send him to Turkish prison and give him some slippery soap:-) No disrespect to Turkish prison system here, I just remembered my favourite Airplane film.
7) regrettably, some Tiberiu's comments directly involved me and some of them I find very insensitive at best, so I decided to react.
quote: reloading 50 times before you are finally able to beat some invincible creep by abusing it's AI is not strategy, is lameness. Comment from Tiberiu on 28/10, two days after game launch. The only comment regarding 50 reloads in such a short of period of time after launch was my post in the No loss thoughts thread and is as follows : Well, I restarted the game 50+ times to see what the conditions are on the first island." Who talks about fighting here? Upon starting the very first playthrough I noticed problems right there on the first island. I would have thought with my previous experience things should go smootly straight away. Due to problems I restarted a game considerable amount of times in order to establish what I can expect from first island from advanced player point of view - basically which aspects are static / dynamic. So please do not tell me I am lame..And even if I was and also decided to restart 2000 times, it has nothing to do with you, but using expression - lame is immediately controversial, but you would of course defend your freedom of speech.
You repeatly bring subject of exploits/cheats/mods etc. Modes do not interest me much, none of my challenges was done in moded environment, but I can enjoy their entertaning value. KB scanner was helpful, I am unfortunately an adult with busy schedule, not student with plenty of free time, and I am not going to play for whole saturday looking for something specific, just to be denied due to RNG (providing there is a chance to get it under normal circumstances) . It just saves time and frustration. Cheats are however artificial help and a big no-no. But your grasp of exploits is somehow twisted - you mention reloading great many times in order to kite a map, defeating 1000 of bears with 1 royal snake, battle with hagni which took 200 turns. These examples of yours are absolute extreme. It means you have either no real knowledge of what you talking about here and never really played seriously hardcore (because it is extremely uncommon to play like that) or you've done it and picked these far-streched examples just to support your theory. Many of my challenges provide screenshots where one can clearly see number of turns and I tend to provide tips and tricks, if not full strategies as well. Due to nature of challenges battles take longer, but examples you have provided are extremely uncommon and rather than enlightening the community somehow with tips& tricks of yours you scare them off instead.
One quote deserves special attention - This is preposterous. Crappy exploits do not interest me. Impy's challanges were not fun at all to do and made absolutely no sense. I only go for challanges that are not based on silly exploits/cheats/mods and that do not involve reloading 1698 times until you finally kite that Map for Verona....Hmm..I never asked for any recognition for my challenges. If it helped others fine, it gave me personally a lot of fun. But you sir did not even bother to check my challenges properly. Condition were always clearly set on the first page and many clearly say - no kiting = paladin ultimate, playing without runes, playing without pet dragon..But according to you "crappy exploits" , "silly exploits" , exploits/cheats/mods. Again, I never asked for any regonision, I let the community to decide, but you're disrespectful,misleading, and actually hurtful, and I thought hard about this and I will not contact the moderators to step in yet. Take a breath Tiberiu, do whatever makes you happy, and if you do not want to change your ways then please leave me alone..

amen to that!;)

and sorry to let u in impy but you have some great runs so u got my respect! even tried some of them out which was fun

and on tiberiu's not

You really are one hell of a troll

by summing it up
1. you like to get people talk in a good or bad way
2. you actually don't contribute anything to these forums. but gladly get people annoyed
3. and on to post on impy's challengles you say that was all lame and blah blah well WHERE IS YOUR CHALLENGE? where is your SS? where is your YOUTUBE MOVIES? thats RIGHT nowhere! e.a read nr.2
4. i've observed u for quite some time now (not that could be missed) you seem like a very lonely person saying your smart and blah blah and then complaining about someone else his play
prolly cause you cannot do it (else show me otherwise in a vid, or just like to to prove something to someone else but lack the skill to do it properly)


and i bet your enjoying this so much

@ Impy.

First, no need to act this way matey. If you think I am a troll you can report my posts and my profile to the moderators of this forum. If they agree, I will be eliminated. Also you can set me on ignore and not respond to my posts.

Now to respond your points.

1) Your point is a BIG ad hominem attack on my person. This is a logical fallacy and I will not respond to such insulting nonsense. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

2) I talk this way in real life too with my friends. I never say "son" as an insult. Priests and the wise usually talk this way to others, do you think they mean it as an insult? I am very polite! I not want to harm or insult anybody. I am just stating some facts very blunt sometimes. :)

3) Well, smoking is indeed harmful and... you know how else :) you pay money to get poison. Not very smart if you ask me. But no need to argue about your personal problems here. There are psychologists which can help and programs that try to cure people from this. This forum is for Kings Bounty game so lets get back to the point. I may have worded my complainst in a sub-optimal way, but what I actually mean is that the game is poorly balanced if it allows 1 royal snake to beat 1000 bears. NOT that somebody who does it is stupid. I actually stated that it is logical and reasonable for the player to try to do no loss. I'm responsible for what I actually said not for what you wrongfully understand.

4) This is just another ad hominem attack from you against me, but I'll respond you a bit.

I helped some people here. Why do you ignore the facts? You are a lier sir. I never laughed at anybody nor insulted anybody like you say I did. I find it pitiful for somebody to find himself worthy for being respected and recognised on an internet forum. I am respected and recognised in the real life, in my chess community. I don't seek false fame over internet forums like others. Here I just exchange some ideas with some people and interact with others about a game.

5)Now when you win fight marked as impossible , that releases some endorphines doesn't it?

Yes, when it's a close battle with losts of casualties. When It's no-loss, it's just cookie cutter exploting and piece of cake abusing of some poor AI. Sorry it's just hard fact. The problem is that the game is unbalanced as it is, but I will mod it and will correct all the problems with the units. For example, all units that have running will have Run at reload 5. This will make it impossible for 1 snake to kill thousands of bears.

6.a- i look forward for challanging battles not cookie cutter exploits. Casting mana accelerator and phantoming a stack of inquisitors 1000 times in order to ressurect all your army is very poor game mechanic.
b- if they wanted to increase game time they shouldnt force players to rush through the game for a big score.
c- false. it's all about money, and the largest part of it comes form casual players, not veterans.

7. I don't know who you are nor care about you. I wrote what I wanted to write and expressed how I wanted as per my birthright to speak freely. If you think I did something against the rules to which I adhered to when signing up on this forum, report me to the moderators and stop complaining all the time. You give yourself too much credit. I wasn't reffering to you it was just a figure of speech. :)

You go on with another ad-homiem to which I won't respond because it's a logical fallacy and doesn't have a place in a civilized debate.

no it just means you make many assumptions about people you don't know just because they disagree with you :)

Good for you. I have nothing against you.

Change my ways? By this you mean "stop being logical and enjoying true challanges"? Then no. And I don't think I bothered you in any way. I did nothing to you. You should leave me alone if you don't have any advice to ask from me. I advise you to contact the moderators if you think I am a harmful and insulting troll.

This is my only and last replay to you if you do not address me more politely.

If the game is possible to finish without losses on hardest difficulty it can be challenging for those who strive for no-losses but too easy for good players who don't care about it.

I don't think no-loss concept is good for those who play on its rules either, because when you've finished no-loss on impossible, there is nothing to look forward to.

If losses were inevitable and they would count to score, you could always try to improve your score by avoiding even more losses which would be much less stressful than trying to improve your score by finishing the game in fewer game days.

@tiberiu
Who ever said on this WHOLE forum that no loss is `a must`, or that any1 not playing no loss is a noob, or stupid ??? No one !!! I havent seen a single post on this forum from no-loss player calling other to play that way, or telling some no loss obligation onto others.
But you in your first post to whole forum said no loss is stupid and wrong, and then stated you didnt insult anyone. Then in many other posts you tell players to just play and lose units, and dont lose time on it. If some1 want to play no loss, and ask question about it there are many to give advice how to do it. Your first reaction on this is to say dont play no loss, because if you do, then you`re stupid. Then in your wisdom, claimed `I`m smart player, and chessmaster and so great and so on... but then on forum ask how to open .kfs archive. Not very smart or bright are you?
1) Google.com
2) how to open .kfs file
3) press enter
4) profit

Are you priest (which might clear some things about you loving to address other forum commenter as son) or a wise man(obviously aren`t) ?

Total and utter LIE. 90% of responds to your posts are disagreeing with you, and you still claim you didnt insult any!

You posted this at least 100 times so far. pls send us all link to youtube where you actually dont this. No loss was never about losing time on 100 turn battle to finish, mine play with 100% crit archer army never took more then 10 minutes/battle 5-6 turns at most. How much time would take you to do 1 royal snake/1000 bears to finish? And what would be gain in that battle, except obvious exp for win, and lost time to finish it.

Who did you help? Where is a single post of you giving some actual advice to any1 here? Useful information, technical fact... anything? And you call other liars also, but never give proof of it. I`m still w8 for response of you calling me liar in message, but never will get because you are wuss and liar yourself. Call me liar, when i ask when and where i lied on this forum, your response was `ill add you to my ignore list`. Such a boy of facts and reason you are.

There is function made by modder of HoMM3 for the Legend, that make all mana/rage income=0 after 20 battle turn. Problem solved after 20 turn absolute no more mana/rega what you had in 19th turn will have to do untill end of battle. No more abuse of magic spring, or and other exploit as you said for infinite mana, or phantom inquisitors for infinite rage. I asked you for some practical result considering your bitching on this exploits 20 days ago, never got reply. Because you never had a slightest idea how to solve it, and then claim `I helped some ppl here` Load of crap.

That means to stop advertising onto other your way of thinking. If some1 ask for help/advice reply, dont make your first act `dont play no loss, it`s stupid (which you did many times already, in your short and pathetic activity on this forum). If you have some helpful idea on that tread title, share it. If your only response is to call players not to play certain way, then pls just dont reply on it.

By calling other players ideas no fun and senseless`, you mean you did nothing to him. OK here i can see how you think your insults arent considered as such. It makes so much sense. Then me saying `tiberiu you`re piece of s..t` is not an insult at all ?

Dude, you really need to give it up. You are arguing with a troll. You cannot win. Look at how he responded to me in that "no loss" thread:

"I'm not insulting anybody. I am the one who is insulted. I never said that is wrong to try to do no-loss,. quite the contrary. But you must learn to read and to stop being an asshole."

Yes, that's right, in the same paragraph where he claims he's not insulting anyone, he calls me an asshole. Expecting any sort of rationality from him is futile. Save yourself the trouble and just put him on ignore, your forum experience will be much nicer (well, except for everyone quoting him, sadly).

just one example out of dozens: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35939

You are a liar. Thanks for proving it. Leave me alone, you and your troll friends.

PS: "Total and utter LIE. 90% of responds to your posts are disagreeing with you, and you still claim you didnt insult any!" <<< Argumentum ad populum. Just because more people say A is true then that A is false, it doesn't mean A is indeed true. Get your hands on a logic book. You seem to need it pretty hard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

You say that to all people who disagree with you? Grow up..

Wow you tell him to lvlup skills, and then quote skill descriptions from hero screen and claim that is help, and brilliant advice. This is priceless.
I asked specific question to you how to solve infinite mana/rage problem as you stated and no response, because you haven`t a slightest idea how this game mechanic works.

And again i`m liar. WHEN and WHERE ? You said so 20 days ago, before my last posts to you, so be true to your words and present proof of your claims.

fatt_shade u know what is most funny

he saying that bruic should grow up:P

remember when he said the ignore list is very nice

LMAO

that is SOME AMAZING LOGIC LOL

he would be the best jehova in the world;)

forcing his will upon others(well that not even ) but the idea anyways and calling everyone son

I have to agree here Razor.
After reading some of his wisdom infused posts, i imagine him as someone showing up and speaking `Do you have a moment to consider not playing no-loss? Every time you finish battle without losing a unit, somewhere a little puppy cry.`
But no matter how ridiculous it is, i should listen to Bhruic and stop spending time to read tiberius posts.

haha no worries;) don't let him stress ya prolly a kid;)


anyway check your msg box :D

I just found it amusing he said damage isn't always important (for a Viking/Warrior it is by far the most important stat).

He also said "Tactics" was a waste of a skill because of high initiative. For Viking/Warrior it is paramount for certain builds because not all units have high move speed and round 1 is critical. In fact, thanks to the Siege Crossbow, my elves only have speed of 1. (If my game wasn't bugged, I could have used 2 Yew Bows... )

Sounds like he mostly plays a Mage, which is fine. I played them too and I understand what is important for mages too. However, based on his responses, I'd say he seems to be more experienced in Mage builds than Warrior builds.

@tiberiu diablo 2 hardcore isn't really all that "hard". It is tedious and annoying. Not to mention you can spam full rejuvs in diablo 2. I suppose there is a bit more of a thrill though. Considering people have beaten Diablo 2 solo hardcore with a naked necromancer.... some supposedly did it with /8 player difficulty too while going solo.

They even took on the Uber Tristam with a naked team too. (now that sounds impressive if not for the coordination).

A challenge is a challenge is a challenge, and after spending some time on any of them, you can devolve almost every "video game" challenge to "simple". That's a bit of a stretch though and I think its best to just admire the work someone has done. If you want to poo poo someone's challenge/work because you don't think it is amazing, so be it. You do have the freedom of speech. I think we already know your position on this matter at this point though.

I do admire succeeding in hardcore diablo 2 for their tenacity to withstand what I'd rather not. (perhaps that's your position on no-loss in KB as well)

But I don't know if I'd go as far to say it is stupid. If you ever do a video game challenge and someone says your works are "stupid", don't be surprised. And if you think all video game challenges are inherently not interesting challenges, from that point of view, why would you bother comparing Diablo 2 challenges to this? Most normal people would insist all video game challenges are stupid. :)

@impy, wow great to see you are alive and well! I sort of like the 'easier' play of WotN if only because it makes it more flexible for different builds mid-way through the game. The plethora of items and such makes it a lot easier to switch up builds without having to restart.

I realize this does take away from the game a bit. I've always felt somewhat railroaded in Armored Princess and had to use scanners to ensure I'd get a very enjoyable build. I'm already at a good start on my 2nd playthrough (only level 8) so I'm hoping that means that most playthroughs have a generous helping of item.

Not sure if you finished it yet, but it is extremely difficult to do no-loss because of certain... "events" later on. I've already speculated it is possible but pretty hard. I wouldn't be surprised if you managed to succeed though! :)

Just one perspective, perhaps better to try to succeed with a threshold of losses and/or using very strange/weird builds. I've never seen a very successful Dwarf build before or < level 5 neutral build.

What bugs me is that some builds are just TOO efficient right now that it is very hard to deny using them. I felt similar issues with Armored Princess... and without the old Rune Mage for easy level 5 resurrection, I feel even more railroaded. We will see though! Game is still young!

I think you missed the part where That whole thread was about using a MAGE. You keep rambling about Warrior when it's completly off topic. But yes, tactics is for noobs always.

"Supposedly". Yea, right. Figures. /8 player too.. sure.

I never said people are stupid for doing no loss. I do no loss myself. Stop trolling please. I said the contrary, black on white, on my first post in that topic. What I said is that the fact that the game allows such a thing is stupid, and it is. No challange in this game when you kill every unit called "invincible" with no loss by cheap exploits like infinite mana/infinite rage +ressurection combos. From now on you will address me with respect.

Game is not young, game is pre-beta.

Actually, I think YOU missed the part that I was the OP of that thread and I was talking about Viking/Warrior. You know the part where I said I'm a level 25 Viking/Warrior and if level 5s were still viable. :)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35778

First 2 guys in the post responded correctly that for Viking/Warriors, level 5s dont' make a lot of sense damage wise.

Someone else started talking about mages and you ran with it. I entertained the idea since no point in kaboshing generally useful information even if it was slightly off topic. What you did say was useful for mages of which I gave you credit for in my previous post. In other words, YOU WERE the one who was off topic.

Well, I like killing bosses in Armored Princess in < 10 rounds with no losses. If you like taking a bit longer, that's cool. Hard to do that without tactics, and if you don't know why, I guess you are too pro to know.

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/com...-uber-tristram

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrNA...feature=relmfu

Video of solo naked necromancer hell mode. Not sure if it was hardcore as it is too much for me to watch to see if he died. I'm going to guess probably so.

I can't seem to find info on the Diablo 2 solo hardcore necromancer /8 players. Someone bragged about that on the diablo 3 forums and I think he had a reference point somewhere that I can't find right now. Diablo 2 isnt' really that hard, but the ubers are tricky os the iron man ubers is very tricky (iron man meaning you can't revisit old areas and such). Anyway, it has something to do with only stuff points into dexterity.

I'm sure those guys would think you are quite noob in saying hardcore is a "real challenge" as well. Amazing how relativity works.

I never said you said people who do no-loss is stupid. I said you said 'it', as in the work or concept or progress of doing so. Unless someone here plays too much King's Bounty and really does look like a big Troll who can regenerate at night... :)

Per your own title
"The so called "no-loss" concept (whole game) is wrong and stupid."

Not sure I follow your last line about
- You misread my posting claiming the OP was off topic on his own thread which talked about Viking/Warrior. :)
- Demonstrated you aren't aware of a different strategy (Viking/Warrior build)
- Misquoted/misread that I said you felt the "no loss challenge" was stupid (we never said people were stupid).
- didn't seem to realize people have beaten diablo 2 hardcore naked in some shape or form

I'd hope you can change my view of you in the future, because besides our general agreement that no-loss can be an unnecessarily painful artificial challenge (I'm a pragmatist), you haven't really earned any more of my respect with your current response despite me trying to be as civil and hopefully factual as possible about it.

This is just your opinion, which I don't really value that much. :)
Diablo hardcore is much more of a challange then KB will ever be with the retardedly overpowered stone skin and target spells in the game. (and others)


I was talking about this thread http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35939

So no, I didn't misread, you are just too confused to understand what we're talking about.


I defended from accusations that I said people who do no loss are stupid. many people accuse me of insults because they aren't fully capable to understand what they read when they read my posts.

try harder then. As you can see I didn't do any of the things listed there. And also I never said I believe it's impossible to do Diablo Hardocore Naked. But until I see it with my own eyes, what I know it that there is a crapload of players outthere who use mods/cheats to do these sorts of things. I play wc3 battle online and like 33% of players use maphacks. But maybe we should stick to discussing KB here.

I'm speculating what those guys would say or think. That isn't an opinion.

Are you saying you aren't as good at Diablo 2 hardcore as you are in King's Bounty?

Great, I was talking about other threads which you posted on since you were pulling in other threads into this thread. I'm a bit surprised you can't seem to extrapolate this.

I see that you thought I was referring to your Mage Assistance thread. I was not.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=35778&page=4

You posted about initiative in another thread which is not listed here.

That's great, but I wasn't one of them.

Yeah, but a LOT of people have done it if one is to believe the posts and videos. You immediately dismissed the possibility with sarcasm without even considering it with your snide remark

You just didn't appear to realize it was possible, otherwise you would have said "it's possible, but I don't believe most people did it".

Well, I find the Diablo 2 aspect somewhat on topic with regards to "challenges".

Let's face it. Practice makes perfect. While "hardcore" Diablo 2 means "no mistakes" essentially you learn from experience and practice making "no mistakes".

That's really no different from King's Bounty save/reload on a very high level.

Obviously if you know what you are doing and have a solid plan in place, you will need to do this far less in both games.

The solo hardcore naked necromancer builds follow a relatively "simple" formula that someone else took time to devise. (Just watch the video and you can easily see) This is very very similar to someone "borrowing" ideas from a no-loss guy in King's Bounty.

Or, you can see how relatively speaking both "challenges" aren't really utterly challenging at all if someone has the blue print. Hopefully you can see why someone might consider Diablo 2 hardcore, not really a challenge but a similar artificially frustrating construct as King's Bounty no-loss. And if you can claim one of them is "pointless" or "stupid". You could just as easily say the same about the other (or all video game challenges for that matter).

Just how logical is it that you can defeat the Lords Of Hell... naked? :)

Opinion, speculation, whatever, the same to me.

Non sequitur; However, let's not make this all about my person, ok? :) Am I that interesting? The point is that Diablo at least offers a challange, while KB does not. (even more so because of it's TBS-fights.)

And I was very correct in what I posted. The game really isn't about damage. It's about spells, skills and talents. The enemy units could deal 1 milion damage/ unit and it would be a moot point since they seldom even get the chance to act with all the spells (blind, sheep, fear, etc), skills (diversions), unit abilities (flashbomb, etc) completly negating the units from taking action.
And yes, thorns are mathematically better then BD's in damage potential in KB game as can be easily proven. BD do not benefit almost at all from hero bonus attack while Thorns greatly do.


No, it's hugely different. To play a fair Diablo game (no killing of the same mob more then 1 time, no Save and Exit if you're about to die, etc) it's actually something that requires attention, skill, adrenaline. Especially if you add up the extra-fairness rule "No town portals", but even without it.
KB you hardly need strategy because the game is so imbalanced. Thank Odin for at least having the possibility to fix that via modding.
Save/Reload is basically a cheat. I won't discuss it because there's nothing to elaborate about it. It's like playing chess and you say, "I made a bad move, now I'll retract it and make a better one" - except the rules of the game prevent that. Of course everybody is free to save/reload every 10 seconds for all I care. Just that it's my birthright and freedom of speech to express my opinion that this thing negates all challange. :)

It would be an error to think all games have equal challanges. Most games are indeed easy because the target audience is not that bright, so it will suffice for the companies to make profit $$. Sure, beating 1 AMAI insane computer in Warcraft 3 is Easy if you're at least hasu, but the challange level of the task is still much greater then finishing all KB games on impossible.

He is naked too I think so it's a fair fight.

Oh this is rich, some1 post tread about 5th lvl units on Viking class, and you answer to question from another tread about Mage build with absolutely no connection to question at hand. And then accuse other posters for fail in logic, and being unable to read while you dont apply same standard on yourself. That`s cute.

And agian, you so bravely defend your stand and claim you never insulted anyone and still no response on my question here. Be brave and find my post where i lied and i`ll never again post anything in any way connected to you.

When I said that I was correct in what I posted I was reffering to what I wrote in his topic about LVL 5 units. :)

Stop being so illogical please. And maybe calm down a bit, you're too angry and resentful. You keep flaming me just because I have disagreed with you, it's not very mature, you know. :)

I showed you are a liar many times now - your post #79 in this topic for example, but there are many others where you shamelessly and lacking common sense you spread lies about me. You said I never helped anybody on this forum and I proved you wrong.

Well, there is the real time element but for some that isn't such a big deal. It isn't like a million bullet shoot them up game. Can we agree the 'real time' element of diablo 2 isn't exactly demanding compared to most games?

Although, "no save and exit" sounds terribly harsh.

I do agree save/reload is faster but the mechanical nature of devising a strategy for your diablo 2 run and king's bounty run. I believe it is far more similar than you think it is, which is why I'm curious if you weren't as good at diablo 2. It isn't a personal insult, but a reference that some gamers are better at some tasks than others.

Again, Diablo 2 Solo Hell Naked Hardcore which you deem "oh so hard" has just as similar of a list of "imbalanced" skills that work so well. Why is it that only ONE class out of the entire game can do it SO well? Isn't that horribly imbalanced by design? Shouldn't you be allowed to solo hardcore naked easily with EVERY class in the game?

The general idea is to use bone wall and have spammable potions everywhere. General crowd control (dim vision etc) and bone spirit as offense. It's tedious but it works similarly to your royal snake vs 2000 bear scenario or magic spring + troll vs Driller.

Well, on a very high level, I find them to be similar. It takes some creativity to have the 'plan' but afterwards it is just mechanical for both games. Some people aren't as good at the real-time element, ergo your adrenaline factor and the reloading of a King's Bounty game is certainly more forgiving.

Haha, fair enough! :)

Well, yes, it's certainly less demanding than other games like Unreal Tournament or multiplayer RTS games.

I'm better at TBS than I am at RTS because I don't have excellent micro, only good. For example I use the mouse to cast spells in Warcraft 3, instead of using keyboard shortcuts which are much faster IF you have the agility and dexterity for that. I haven't played Diablo 2 PVP so I can't assess how good I would be.

Yes, well, if thats the case, then it surely isn't that hard if you exploit some ability that was left imbalanced. Doing a naked Barbarian hell diablo seems hard to me.

If it's possible to do then it's pretty imbalanced indeed. No character should be able to do this if the game was balanced.

Ok but still there's way more things like this in KB then in Diablo. It isn't just one thing there are many of them. This is what bothers me, that I have to edit the game to make it challanging. It is so simple to balance things in KB.. just prevent things like infinite mana combos, or no-retaliation exploits, or troll night regeneration.

Agreed about RTS, but yes Diablo 2 definitely has more manual dexterity requirements than King's Bounty. Especially now that kiting is even easier, and failing a kite isn't fatal.

Wow, yeah, I'm a keyboard nut with War3/DoTA (when I used to play) and SC2. Back when I used to play, I memorized every hotkey for every hero (both DoTA and War3), every race in all of the blizzard RTS. No key remapping.

Ah ok, that explains why you feel it is much more difficult. Nothing wrong with that! Just curious so I can see the reference point!

No question there about the barbarian. Regarding necro being the easiest naked char run, I agree that it sounds a bit broken as the original designers probably never intended for it to be that way! :)

I generally agree with you on King's Bounty. Although in Diablo 2, there are some pretty broken skills even if you aren't fully naked. Sorceresses able to drain down bosses to half life using a low skill? Paladins able to kill the most powerful enemy (Uber Tristam is a new thing that is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder than Diablo alone) with a SINGLE point in a level 1 skill (smite). Yeah yeah you need some items to do it, but I was pissed at how easy it was.

I suppose in a nutshell, for most single player games and a few multiplayer games, there is always some sort of "imbalance" of sorts. It's a real shame. For better balance, multiplayer tends to be the only way to go and that's ONLY if the developers are proactive in making sure the game is competitive.

You might have to pick up a new hobby if you want continuous real challenges or go into multiplayer is what I'm saying. :)

But, what I do like about King's Bounty is, to me, it is fun! :) I think the developers left some of those options in there to have you sort of enjoy romping the computer a bit. Perhaps they also did it to open the doors to new players as when I first played Armored Princess I felt progression was a little bizarre and not straightforward.

Perhaps the next best "challenge" for King's Bounty would be
1) lowest level victory
2) fastest run (game time)
3) fastest run (real time)

Allow losses though.

I'm not sure if that's going to be too easy, but I think it might be interesting. See, allowing losses isn't always much easier since restocking is necessary to maintain strength to win certain battles and restocking would kill your fastest game time score.

Yeah you have hypnosis and sacrifice, but that would hurt your 'real time' score.

Skald/Paladin class has the "use units from reserve" so clearly they encouraged that sort of usage/play.

Also, since you love Turn Based Strategy, not sure if you played an OLD game called Master of Monsters. Someone made a 'remake' of it of sorts, and they intentionally tried to make save/reload unnecessary.

http://www.wesnoth.org/

Like you know how in King's Bounty if you follow the same steps you can repeat a battle exactly the way as before? Wesnoth's random generator prevents this and you will never repeat a battle like that.

(Personally I like, the 'fixed' random regeneration if only to show people you did it before like a saved replay). Maybe this should be an option for King's Bounty?

No you claimed that 20 days ago and never give proof of it. My post #79 here was question if you helped anyone with some TRUE advice, and contribute in whole forum.
Your answer was, `Yes i said to someone to lvlup his skills and then quoted those skills to him`, that`s not help form human being but parrot who knows 3 lines of text.
And i never spread lies about you, my posts are true.
I guess you call me liar on this account, but i have no idea why. Still hope to see you proofing yourself with some evidence.

You keep bitching about game is imbalanced, game is imbalanced. Why wouldnt it be? Life is imbalanced, so 3% of population hold 95% of world resources in control, would you call that balance ??? So why would then game, product of someones fiction be any better then real life in terms of balance ?

tiberiu is just brainless and wants some attention;)

First he saying D2 on hardcore is real hard and later when ckdamascus puts some vids and stuff he lays down hands LMAO

Besides if u want a pretty good balanced game play starcraft broodwar i challenge u for 1v1 np;)


and i love how u TIBERIU keep saying i didn't insult anyone

yet you call fatt_shade a liar
bhriuc and asshole

and you say you helped the forum community
well HOW DID u do that?

giving some standard tips without any example of a vid of ss or w/e
saying u need trolls for spider boss or w/e
isn't helping at all

you have to elaborate and I haven't seen u doing that in any way

you keep saying things are imbalanced and stuff but why?
oh wait here it comes

1 royal snake vs 1k bears oh wait i heard that 1000 times again and again
got anything else?

like u say stone skin is imbalanced wel why?

The fact here is just that you show off but don't provide anything
you say no loss is easy and whatsoever well show me a vid or anything that u do it then we can tallk yeah?

And i just love it how u go off topic on your thread with d2 lol
very wise indeed

So it's come to this. Pathetic insults and name calling. They say the last resort of the incompetent is the ad hominem attack. :cool:

Too bad moderators on this forum are unfair and apply the rules selectively. I can only expect they're waiting for me to reply even more insulting then you do so that they can have a reason to eliminate me for showing the flaws of your reasoning. But this won't happen, because I'm not a stupid uneducated prick, like other people in this world.. ;)

Happy circlejerking! :rolleyes:

PS. Learn to write for chrissake... your block of nonsense is barely readable. And less Caps Lock ok son?