Vulching on the ATAG server.
 

Honestly guys...it's a disgrace. I flew today, there are 2+ German fighters almost at all times Circling the RAF bases looking for easy kills. Personally, to me it's cheap antics...and I hope More ATAG mods get on to kick these clowns.

Don't get me started with the whole "it's part of the game" stuff. You know it's cheap and that's why it's done. There is no reason why 2/3 times I took off or landed on an airfield I had an Me-109 immediately on my tail.

I understand its frustrating to be killed at first but..

The 2nd time, instead of offering your self like sacrificial lamb...try this

1) take off from a different airfield

2) get on coms

3) get a wingman

4) get some alt

5) fly cap

6) then get revenge, it's half the fun

Having no fire zones is not full realism and to be honest not as fun with that many less targets to defend or attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBHGo...o5XhoOsbgmASw1

Hiya Gimpy,

As you know, I was there at the time and saw you post a complaint of 'vulchers' in chat.

When I asked 'where?', you said 'all over the Spit airfield!'

I also let you know that 'vulching is allowed' on the ATAG server.

I was stationed over Dover at 10,000ft at the time, and if you'd have specified which airfield, I could've howled down like a raging banshee to any of the aerodromes in the area to help out. So would all the other Red team players.

Unfortunately, Spitfires are available at quite a few airfields on the ATAG maps, so no-one knew which to head for. If we had been told which airfield, those pesky Blue guys would've soon been sent packing! ;)

"-Vulching is allowed. That means that any enemy plane regardless of it's position (in the air / on the ground) is a legitimate target. Whether you want to drop bombs on a particular target or strafe a particular enemy target, if it's on the enemy side of the lines (not attacking your own team) it is fair game. We setup our missions so that if you want to get directly into the action, the forward air fields are there to allow you to do so. But with spawning in on the front lines, be expected to spawn into your airfield possibly being attacked. War is hell, and this sort of thing happened in real life all the time."

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...d-server-rules


To catch a 109 pilot you first have to be smarter than the 109 pilot. Major Borris outlined it well. TBH, this is where the vast majority of my 109 kills come from.

I don't even bother to take off from another airfield anymore. With the latest patch & hotfix the warm up time on a Spit IIa is almost nil. When you take off in Full Fine Pitch use your throttle to bring your revs up to 3,000 rpms (= 6 lbs boost). When you rotate, keep the nose down, bring your wheels up, use your prop pitch to bring your revs down to 2,800 rpms, open the overboost gate, increase throttle to full (= 9 lbs boost), close your rad to 50%, fly down the streets of Margate or Folkestone while trimming out, DO NOT fly out to sea -- you'll be an easy target once you separate from the clutter of the town buildings. Instead make a hard right or left on the far outskirts of town and follow the terrain out ofthe immediate vicinity of the airfield.

Once you've reached 270 mph IAS on the deck you should be well clear of the vulching action. Reduce throttle to 6.25 lbs boost and constant speed prop pitch to 2650 rpms. Start a gentle climb into the sun, never letting your speed fall below 200 mph IAS. This gives you plenty of maneuvring speed if you should need it. Now you are transitioning from prey to hunter. Plan your strategy. Adjust your gunsight. As Major Borris said, get on Comms (Teamspeak 3) to get updates on the action at the airfield. Upon reaching 10,000 feet start heading back to the airfield, trying to keep the sun over your shoulder. Clouds are about 5,000 feet and are now opaque with this latest patch. Nothing like lining up a cloud between you and your airfield in the distance, then making a gentle dive at about 350 mph IAS to arrive unannounced through the cloud with lots of e on hand. Be sure to reduce your throttle and pull back your prop pitch to avoid over revving.

Pick up a vulching intruder by following the trail of accurate WHITE flak bursts following him. Keep an eye for any high covering 109's, then maintain your dive speed to saddle up behind your victim. Make sure you have the correct convergence and wingspan (32 feet) dialed on your gunsight. If you misjudged your attack, don't lose your smash. Hard throttle to 9 lbs boost again, prop pitch up to 2,800 and climb like hell again. At apex, reduce throttle so not to blow engine, but keep prop pitch to maintain revs around 2,800. Rinse and repeat.

Vulching vulchers can be fun! :)

If you are not on comms, your safest bet is to spawn inland, e.g, Gravesend. Click on the inland bases and see whats available as not all have the Spit2a on some server mission maps.

Generally, the more players on the server the higher the chance there will be enemy over the coastal bases - bear that in mind when RTB low on fuel and no ammo too.......I usually go to somewhere inland like Canterbury - its useful to try the inland bases so you get an idea of their location and what they are like from the air.

Thanks Atag_Snapper, some nice tips.

yeah i know, i wasn't sure wich one. the one right next to lymphe hurricaines. but still, I think it's a cheap tactic that needs to be revised. War is not fair...a game should be. or at least make it more dangerous with better and more AI gunners on ground

Also been chopped off like a confused turkey in my Blenheim just after T/O I always wondered, realism? did luftwaffe really have a bunch of 109's orbiting RAF airbases during the war?
Ok, learning something new every day.

I doubt it, but I recon if there was the chance of it happening the RAF would have had a bunch of spitfires circling their own airfield to prevent it.

Maybe instead of gallivanting off across the channel (instrument checks right;) ) the Red should be protecting their assets

@theOden: Up to my knowledge, they had no time to circle an airfield. They had tasks to do and the flight time of a bf109 after reaching great britain was not very long to do such things. Perhaps on their way, they could take a snapshot under some circumstances, but depending on their tasks, it wouldn't be possible very often.

A bf109 in game has more flight time, than in real war, as far as I know (because the map is also smaller scaled).

@gimpy, Hi mate
yes I know, its annoying to be killed during the warm-up in the hangar, but this should motivate the others member to set up CAPs and generally play in much more 'stategical' vision. I always take off from delocated airfield, I don't like spawn in with the mess over my head. BTW sometime funny situations appen, on one occasion I spawned in the hangar and the very first image I had was a Stuka at the height of 20 meters pointing at me and releasing a bomb between my hangar and the hangar in front of me!:) I had no time to capture the screen! The hangar collapsed on my but I was unhurt and I managed to take off and take my revenge.
Cheers

I'f I'm first up,and I know others are in the process of getting airborne,I always try and circle the airfield until they're up safely,just to cover their asses.....and I hope there are others that would do the same for me given a simliar situation:)

I agree though that vulching should be allowed,as Snapper puts it,this is what would've happened in real life,it's war,and we've got to cope with it,I like that realism.

The map used on the ATAG Server Axis vs Allies and the ATAG #2 Server is 1:1 as tested. We've only been using a small chunk of the theatre available to purposefully reduce the flight times of both sides' bombers because of the annoying Crash-to-Desktops that strike at any moment. Nothing worse than to fly a 1.5 hour mission only to get a CTD just as you approach the target area!

With the ongoing improvements to coding (both in fps and stability) the ATAG battle area will soon be expanding to include bomber missions deep into London. Scoring and other incentives will be forcing the Battle much higher as well. This will undoubtedly prove a greater challenge in fuel management and endurance for participating 109 pilots. At ATAG we are fortunate to have the mission designing skills of a very talented individual who has successfully been running trials on our Server #2. Some of these missions have been wild, with large bomber formations at all altitudes and some nasty surprises to catch up the unwary. Exciting times ahead, folks! :)

PS. I should add, though, that while these missions are taking place any pilot is free and welcome just to briefly stop in and do what he wants. Looking for a dogfight, suppress an airfield, intercept a bomber formation, or grab a single bomber to hit a strategic target on a solo run or use a fighter-bomber for a quick cross-channel Jabo raid -- whatever. It adds to the dynamic and unpredictable quality of the environment! :)

:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

I suppose if Strafing an airfield (Vulching) is "unfair" in this sim (o.k. Game) then sneaking up behind and enemy aircraft and shooting him down without a warning is also unfair !!!!!

how about two against one, thats also uinfair !!!, Height advantage thats also unfair need to start at the same altitude

Oh I know a 109 against a Blenheim now that crap has just gotta stop !!!!

Oh Yeah when there are more Red than Blue game stops until playing field are equal. Oh I could go on !!!

If you do NOT want to be part of a historically accurate simulator then take the whining over to Microsoft FS X

BTW perfect video Borris

:mad:

I think there are more rules in a knife fight than what we have on the ATAG Server. Actually, just two come to mind:

1) No swearing, obscenities, or abusing another player in chat or Teamspeak (there are kids, after all, either playing or in viewing/listening distance of some home computers),

and

2) No deliberate shooting of team mates. (Yeah, friendly fire incidents sometimes occur which is not the issue at all -- we're talking of some cretins who would join the other 'side' and go "renegade")

What IS allowed is "vulching" (er, airfield suppression ;) ), shoulder shooting, shooting aircraft with wheels down, shooting down badly-damaged a/c in distress, etc etc.

That's it!

Looking forward to seeing the new missions!

Also, if being shot up on the ground or any of that stuff really really bugs you, then there are other servers out there with very interesting things to do. Grab some buds and try a few!

Absolutely fair!
BoB was all about the survival of RAF aircraft on the ground while their strips got pounded by bombers and fighters!

If you don't like getting airborne from a hot base, move your spawn to Gravesend or Maidstone.

I love spawning in when the 109's are overhead.
Ding ding ding! Scramble!

Now I'm getting confused.
Two others said Luftwaffe didnt have 109's orbiting RAF airbases picking easy victories during the war but you say otherwise.

Could it be that you mix historically correctness with something else?

Some strafing attacks happened on RAF airfields, but I don't think it was a common occurance during the battle. The Luftwaffe didn't send fighters to RAF airbases with the scope of catching planes taking off or landing.

There are several cases of RAF fighters being scrambled late and taking off while being bombed from higher altitude.

We head to the RAF bases because more often than not it's the only way to find RAF fighters. Nobody protects the red bombers, and nobody bothers to climb above 10000 feet. They just fly in circles on the deck over top of their airbases, or sometimes they fly low over the Channel and then fly in circles on the deck over top of the Luftwaffe airbases.

I promise that if RAF people start getting altitude, and maintaining a presence at 19000 feet where the 109s don't perform so well, there will be fewer Blue pilots strafing English bases out of fear of high-flying spitfires. Couple nights ago the 71st guys were doing just that: Staying up at 18000 ft or thereabouts, and using team tactics to gang-bang the Luftwaffe guys trickling over in 1s and 2s.

But for whatever reason, so many newbies think that they shouldn't have to try to secure an altitude advantage, or shouldn't have to fly their aircraft to it's strengths. They just want to "dogfight" at treetop height all day.

If you want your base to be home free, there's already an easy-mode server out there that the warbirds of prey guys run. Go check it out maybe.

No offense intended to anyone here but that reply really made me laugh Knucks!:)

I "think" (which means I'm dont know for sure) but the 109 had a very limited fuel range, which would have precluded them from specifically strafing.

I'm no historian either but from what I have read the Luftwaffe could focus there attacks on many airfields in the southern and eastern coast airfields and when they did it almost broke the RAF.

These tactics were put to great effect on Aug 24th 1940 in what Churchhill later called "the desperate days"

London was another story though with only 10 minutes of loiter time.


Here is an article from airforce magazine:

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Mag...808battle.aspx

Some BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/...stal_airfields

Borris: as long as we are on the subject: (which is a much better subject than the original) I dont remember see many "if any" gun camera footage of German strafing airfields, plenty of American though

I think the term of 'historic' being tossed about in this debate is really more accurately described as realistic.

It's realistic in that the pilot is responsible for his own actions. It is not historic in that those actions may or may not be an accurate representation of recorded actions taken during the period being simulated.

I'm a big fan of not imposing rules such as 'no vulching'. Players should be responsible for their own actions just as the real pilots were.

You can choose who to play with and how.

To be fair, there probably aren't too many people buying a Battle of Britain simulator who are excited to finally have an opportunity to run escort missions for British bombers.

Thank you bw_wolverine, that's pretty much what I was getting at :)

I also prefer "no rules" and all points you made out but thing is this is a game and not one single 109 pilot needs to fly "historically".

This creates, in worst case, situations where rules have to be applied to gain a more "realistic/historical" experience how backward it may sound.

Now, for the record I honestly hope ATAG will remain as is with the "no rules" setup. Just felt like nagging the words used and wasn't very impressed with knuckles post, typical internet tough-guy stuff, which I'm sure he is not as most ATAG's I've seen are rather cool guys :-)

O.K. Oden: ya got me there: My humble apology here. Actually as I wrote some of those post I had that nagging voice saying, "somebody's gonna hand you your Butt" So I consider my butt handed. For good reasons I usually steer clear when someones OPINION dosen't match mine. Clearly the case here. And as you say ATAG has a responsibility NOT to jump on opinions So as I said I bow (especially before another ATAG member toilet papers my house.:oops:

Not to much on youtube thats for sure.

Im bet they burned everything they could before there capitulation though.

The german attacks against coastal airbases were stopped by Hitler before they could realise there effect.

Too late!

German guncam footage is rare as a rule, but that's not saying the LW didn't get to shoot during WWII. Most of the film was lost/destroyed. However, I believe you are on the right track, the 109s did not as a rule spend time strafing airfields, they were kept busy at height.

I rarely get killed taking off... but i rarely get on the ground without having 3 or 4 planes straff me while i got my flaps and gear down for a landing and its still rare i don't make it down... so... doesn't matter if im flying spit's or 109's but i got nothing against vulching cause there's no rule saying they can't, but i personally find the fight more fun than the kill, so i don't.

I had some guy swearing at me the other night. It was a real insult and ruined my night. I escorted a 110 over the channel. One spit managed to get off the ground. I circled the base until the 110 headed back over the channel. As the spit closed in on the 110 (about 1km over the channel) I dove down and gave him a hell. He was determined to take out the 110 so he flew too strait. His crate was done and he bailed.
All good,until he abused me and called me a spawn killer with some choice 4 letter words. There was no talking to him. I like the no rule servers because it's the most realistic. Also no rules mean no arguments. If you don't agree you should go to another server. Simple.:(

Hi Drewpee,

No way you should have to take that crap. Don't know if this happened on the ATAG Server, but I'm sending you a PM anyway.

Snapper

Its a rare occurance lately for me to spawn on ATAG red bases & not have flak going off over the base. It's rather disconcerting & quite frankly, I've taken to leaving the ATAG server when the blue boys are persistetly over the bases.

Don't get me wrong, war is war, & no quarter should be asked or given, but I think we need to find ways to discourage players from hovering over bases loking for the easy kills. More flak needed at bases? A proximity timer script increasing the chances of some aircraft system failure if over a base too long?

No worries Snapper. I've got a memory like a sieve so I wouldn't remember the guys name but it's nice to know bad behaver is frowned upon. I've started to use Fraps so in future I'll be taking a screen shot of this kind online rubbishing and sending it to your mods:)

PS, I love your server and it's now the only one I fly on. Please don't change.

Another perspective that we are addressing is that for a number of pilots there isn't enough to do, so "airfield suppression" (vulching) becomes a prime activity. This naturally keeps the action low as defending pilots seek to drive off the intruders -- all the while bombers of both sides are flying high above unmolested and unescorted. This is an over-simplification, of course; not everyone vulches, and bombers do get escorted and do get shot down.

Trust me, we have tried beefing up flak batteries, plus static and AI air defenses, even assigned limited numbers of the pre-patch "über Spitfire IIa's" to a coastal airfield. This generated tremendous controversy at times and was met with only dubious success at the best of times. Up 'til now our hands have been tied with the limitations of the CoD coding. In many cases our AAA efforts resulted in gamestopping lag on the airfields -- the extra processing load was too much for the existing code to handle.

Certainly positive incentive is preferable to negative. With the coding performance improving, we can design missions where BOTH sides have a lot to do up high. Further, if the bombers get through it will be detrimental to the losing side, beneficial to the winning side. Players will be rewarded for getting their aircraft back to a friendly airfield, penalized if they don't -- that kind of thing. All these design efforts are to encourage gameplay to evolve towards a more realistic (as possible in a sim) Battle of Britain experience. We don't have a Goering or Dowding to dictate Rules of Engagement, so we will work on mission design instead.

Any and all suggestions are always gratefully appreciated!

To be honest, I would really advise using the rear bases. I take off from Gravesend and/or Maidstone once in about every three sorties. You never have to contend with pesky 109s above.

In fact, even Manston is "hot" only about 30% of the time in my experience. In fact, last night there were 60+ on the server, and I used up ~30% fuel (what's that 25 minutes?), in a 5,000ft circuit above Manston/Ramsgate and only 1 single german turned up the whole time - and that was a twin engine, not even a 109.

How did I miss this!?

Gimpy is onto something here...

But I want to give my 2 cents on this subject for I am sick and tired of the REVERSE vulch. Where you are flying around over enemy territory and get killed (black screen) by Bofors. Pfft. I mean...like who could really hit a speeding bullet like me in my 109 right? Jesus.

I think its about time we put an end to REVERSE vulching as well.

Now to determine at what height you must follow the poor guy up to in order to engage.

Yep, it's the luck of the draw. If one field is being strafed, chances are that another one far enough away but also close enough to go after the strafers is free.

That'd be Hawkinge then. Hawkinge has to be the most intensely strafed aerodrome of the lot. In fact, spawn anywhere else then fly to Hawkinge and 8 times out of 10 you'll find 109s down low just asking to be blown to bits. ;)

The map is actually 1:1 scale. The reason 109s can loiter longer in the sim is that they don't have to burn half their fuel zig-zagging over some bombers that are forming up deep in France at 200 km/h: we don't have Goering threatening us with execution when we fly ( :P ) and since not many people fly bombers yet, there is nothing for 109 pilots to escort.

If anyone wants 109s to be constrained by something, one should go to the bugtracker and vote for fixing the Lofte bombsights and Ju88 gyrocompass. Then the bomber pilots will be asking for escort and the 109s will not be forced to bounce airfields to find action ;)


I recall reading somewhere that the bulk of Luftwaffe's celluloid containing gun camera footage was hidden at the basement of a church in Dresden. When the city was firebombed near the end of the war, the rise in atmospheric temperature got so much that the celluloid (which is flammable) combusted and blew the church up. The church has since been rebuilt, but the gun camera footage is gone.

excellent advice for counter vulching, doesn't get much better than this ;) my routines at take off are much like this, but sometimes i go on attack right after take off as soon as i'm 240mph, some 109s forget to keep their E pursuing slower targets on deck. i'll reinforce the rule, don't head out to sea; also keep eyes on your tail on the runway and as you make your climbing turn right after airborne, if followed glue to tree top level, grass if you see a clearing, and weave left-right, you won't be an easy hit.

counter vulching, fun for everyone 8)

Good stuff, Jatta! ;)

"The map is actually 1:1 scale. The reason 109s can loiter longer in the sim is that they don't have to burn half their fuel zig-zagging over some bombers that are forming up deep in France at 200 km/h: we don't have Goering threatening us with execution when we fly ( ) and since not many people fly bombers yet, there is nothing for 109 pilots to escort."

Related to this are Fuel Flows in game. Some really quick and dirty testing gives the following versus documented real world numbers:

Spitfire IIA
Climb +4/2800RPM 72gal hr. Book figures 94Gall hr
Cruise +2/2600RPM 60gal hr. Book figures 78 gall hr

BF109E4
Climb 1.35/2350 RPM (AUTO) 480Ltr/hr (106Gall/hr)
Max Cruise 1.35/2400RPM 360 ltr per hr. ... Spit value equiv is about 356Ltr hr so this value looks pretty good.

Yet to track down documented values but for a rough guide line they would similar to Spit values I would think. If some one can fill in the 109E values please do.

Blenheim IV
I4000ft at +3Lbs Boost Full Coarse pitch. 30 Gall/hr per engine i.e 60Gall hr total
Documented values 57Gall hr per Engine Total 114 Gall/hr

Edit: Added BF109E4 Climb Fuel Flow.
Notes: All Gall value are imperial.

This is good info. Thanks for posting this, IvanK.

Actually I spend a lot of my time on ATAG escorting bombers, even AI, and it certainly does burn up the fuel! I love flying home with the red fuel light on!
The amount of trips I have made without seeing any intercepting fighters at all is amazing, so the sooner people get out of the weeds and up to a proper BoB altitude the better.

The 109 rarely used gun-camera, because they have external guncam only (ESK 2000a type).

http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/jg1hist...09D/bf109D.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/jg1hist...ldengahptm.jpg

I must say that when I play (OZ time) I only see about 12 to at best 30 players at a time. Players tend to be drawn to the coast and then to the air fields looking for action and it happens on both sides of the channel. Blue do have an advantage in warm up times so they can reach the coast quicker. Maybe that gives the impression that blue are the worst culprits. Shorter warm up times mite help ac to meet some were in the middle.
The thing is when flying red the longer warm up time leaves you vulnerable to EA attack. I would have thought in the real world the ground crew would have kept the AC's close to operating temperature other wise their precious fighters would be sitting ducks. Another thing I miss from il2 is the old fashion air raid siren. I have taken off and not realized an ea was near but with the air raid siren there is no mistake.

Eastchurch would be a great airfield to use, but ATAG's maps limit it to Blenheim air starts for some reason. I say open it up to player choice of aircraft and code and a lot of people would use it.

Is it one of the bugged airfields for spawns? Maybe that's the reason.

Maidstone is...bumpy. It's difficult to get up there (not impossible). Inexperienced pilots might have a very hard time taking off from Maidstone.

Also, with regard to the 109s taking out low and slow aircraft just after take-off: try this :)

If you're in a hurricane, drop your flaps a bit and weave at the slowest speed you can manage and still make it look like you're not about to stall. If you do it right, and the attacker isn't wise to it, he'll stall right into the ground. It'll work in a Spit too, just be careful not to damage the flaps at speed.

I've done this successfully on three occasions and it's very satisfying ;)