how are these 109s turns 180 with out penalties?
 

I just watched a 109 turn 180 degrees and not lose power or energy?!

BS

I hope the patch fixs this and the under powered Spits Ia supposed to be able to do 310mph I can not get it over 240mph all trimed out! 25 % fuel and it's not doing it.

I fly 109 most of the time and there is a significant loss of energy turning 180.

And yes, Spit Ia is porked. Both 109 and Spit Ia are not flying to their historical performance.

All you need is to fly one yourself to see, nothing magical with the 109...good pilot would be the variable amongst other 109 pilots.

and no black out for those 109s either. when they turn 180
or flip over. is exactly what im seeing.

Black outs do occur with the 109s. But there is lesser chance because the 109s' elevators are heavy, especially under high speed. Spitfire pilots black out because they are turning too hard.

This is probably why Brit pilots think that the 109s lose no energy - they can't pull as hard and therefore do not bleed as much energy - adding the fact that the 109s are lighter therefore accelerates better.

OK, I will stop showing off near you.:-P

There is nothing wrong with the 109 FM, they're deadly and manoeuverable in good pilot's hands. It's not easy to control these things on the edge (which is what you've probably seen). There are many good 109 pilots out there and you have to fly your Spitfire on the edge, too in order to beat them, that's all.

240mph IAS or TAS? Spitfire is much slower than it should be, in fact it's slower than Hurricane, but with good tactics and good control, you can beat the Hun anyway ;)

240mph is what the dial says, I don't have a dial read out for TAS unless there is one and I don't see it. Ground?
I just don't see how I'm at 240 the 109 has flipped turned and caught me several time in less then probable .5 KM
oh and when I have passed them at that speed I have counted 1 Mississippi and in 5 hes on me and shooting!

unbelievable.

Brit planes are easy to pick up. They are more stall proof and more stable gun platforms. They also have better tracers, gun sight, and rear views.

109s are harder to master. They are much more unstable; they can't follow turns; gunnery is also difficult. But if the pilot can master 109's energy potentials, they are the superior planes to fly.

Any plane is easy to pick up. But it's difficult to fly it on it's best potential.

Mastif you just got to be more careful fighting good 109 jockeys, as I said, they are extremely agile and can roll into your turn easily. Emil's turn rate at higher speed is very good, too, fyi. Using trim and good rudder control, you can turn with a Spitfire for long enough to place a good burst and you'll have plenty energy left to extend, rinse and repeat.

Have you actually flown a Hurricane, arguably the best fighter we have available until people let us use the IIa? Unless the target is 3k above you, or you have your cockpit constantly open, you can't see the deathstar on your six.

I have hopped in a 109 and the view from that thing is 10x better than a Hurricane.

And trying to suggest that the gun sight and tracers are making up for the deficiencies against the opposing speed, dive, firepower, and damage resistance is a little disingenuous.

You CAN win against 109s in the I, Ia, and Hurricane, but unless you're pilot of the year or the 109 pilot makes several mistakes, you need specific conditions (mostly height and surprise).

Maybe that's enough for people, for the game. But I'm getting awfully tired of 109 pilots trying to assure us red pilots that there's nothing different, they're just better. At least admit you've got advantages over the red pilots. There are plenty of very good red pilots who do very well. But I seem to notice that all the people I know who don't like to play games unless they rack up a score tend to be moving to the blue side of things....

EDIT: Sorry to sound a little pissed off. It's not directed at anyone in particular. We have a very hard time dealing with 109s that are flown by average pilots, let alone skilled ones. And all we seem to get for providing the targets for the turkey shoot most of the time is some guy on teamspeak hopping into our channel to blast German march music at us? The game is hard enough. I know it's supposedly in 'good fun', but after struggling to compete and no one flying bombers because the blenheim falls apart if you SPIT at it, what chance do we have. That's why I've turned to flying escort missions almost exclusively if ANYone will fly the blenheims during the hours I'm in.

Make sure the energy measureing tool you used is calibrated for the 109 variant your testing prior to testing.. ;)

Prove that it didn't lose power or energy.

Prove it.

Otherwise, shut up.

Also just some comments regarding the 'easy to pick up' red fighters.

How does that in any way help our cause? I didn't get the impression that online Cliffs of Dover WWII combat flight sim was a good 'casual' game. Especially when the only server(s) that really offers any hope of finding another player are ones that run full real settings.

Any advantage an easy to pick up plane might have in terms of numbers of pilots capable of flying it is tossed out the window.

So, I understand where mastiff is coming from. He's frustrated. I don't believe that the 109s keep all their energy in turns. It's a good pilot who dropped down and is using his plane correctly. There's nothing really the matter with having the 'better' plane. Just admit it. I just think a lot of 109 pilots won't admit it because they don't want to open up their kill tally to the disclaimer that that suggests. *shrug*. I'll be the first to admit that when I rarely get a IIa, my kills in it are likely 25% to 50% dependant on the machine I'm in, rather than my skill in it.

S!

The only plane that is dangerous to the Bf109E is the Rotol Hurricane. Sissyfire I and Ia you can outdive etc. but that fat winged gremlin keeps up :D Osprey..if you see the tracers better it is easier to aim. And those 8 guns on RAF planes make mince meat of the 109 very quickly. Especially the MG tracers are very vague in the 109 and cannons too slow to hit anything so I would sure appreciate brighter tracers at times..

But anyways..these debates and discussions about alleged superiority of plane X or Y have been raging for ages and will never stop. Poor horse will never get rest from the eternal beating ;) :D

@doogles I have flown them and they don't lose any air speed; they fly through like no resistance at all to the air.

So I'm to beleave that we can make those manuavers just like in Red Tails. Such BS!

S!

Suggested reading. Robert L. Shaw : Fighter Combat - Tactics and Maneuvering. I have the book and has nice info on preserving E and hiding E-State from the opponent.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technolo...191114399.html
Might as well be flying against these.

This guy's favorite theme the "übermesser" :rolleyes:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=27028&page=3

I like Reflected's post: "typical thing in flight sims: you got shot down by a better pilot? Blame the FMs!'' :cool:

Whatever you are using, i'd like to have the recipe :D :D :D

The Rotol Hurri and the 109 are so close performance-wise, that i feel very confident in both fighting the other one!

Your perception clearly seems to be biased, imo.

I think the 109 is right where it should be, extremely dangerous in the right hands and a total brick in the hands of a noob turn 'n' burner. I've flown red the last couple of nights on ATAG and there are two types of 109 pilots there, ace types and total rookie types and very little in between.

Can I just ask Mastif ... we're you flying against a human pilot or AI?

I have flown them and they do. Climb to steeply and you lose airspeed, push down too harshly and you red out. Pull up harshly and you go into blackout. The Brit machines are more susceptible is all. The reason we won out in the battle of britain was because we had better pilots with more reason to defend our Isle.

First off, it's Wolverine, not Osprey :P

Second, if you try to follow a 109 in a dive for any length of time in a Hurricane you will very quickly find you have no control surfaces remaining on your aircraft as they've been torn off.

You're right about these arguments going no where, though. If anything it allows for a little venting before we carry on carrying on.

Here's something to think about though: Flying a Spitfire I/Ia or a Hurricane, your best option for taking on 109s is to meet them from above. Get altitude and descend on them. Okay, now a lot of people don't fly that high, so this isn't too hard to do. But the good 109 pilots fly higher. They fly in around 10k ft or above at LEAST. Okay, so fly higher. 15k and up. Now you're meeting the 109s on better terms.

But now consider how ATAG has their mission set up and how people fly it. Bombers fly in at 50ft off the deck. You can't even see those dots from 15k+ altitude. So you have to fly lower to protect your targets. Like 1,000 to 5,000 ft above the ground lower. This = 109 bait.

So our ONLY option to win those maps is for us to get bombers in the air and get the enemy targets ASAP. Only, we have the tin can Blenheim. I'm sure it has its strengths, but I've flown many escort missions and it's a VERY safe bet that if you go over there with 4 Blenheims, 3 of them will be destroyed by flak and 2 of them before they've even dropped bombs.

Blue pilots and builders keep telling me that the Red flak is just as dangerous as the Blue stuff, but I've since flown a 109 over red airfields to test it and I find that very hard to believe. I'm lucky if I get out alive after buzzing a blue target. One of our tactics is now to flood the target area with fighters to draw the flak so the bombers actually get through. It's frequently suicide and almost always you end up with severe damage.

So if you protect your targets, you get shot down.
If you go up and fight the 109s, you lose the map.
If you get people in Blenheims to attack targets, they rarely make it home and that's no fun (but quite often get the target - salute to you Bomber Boys, doing a thankless job. I'll escort you guys any day and any hour).

THAT'S what makes it frustrating.

One more thing to mention. Escorting bombers? Well, they're going to fly at 50ft off the deck too! So you have to be lower to keep eyes on them and intercept fighters attacking them. All THIS means is that the 109s flying at altitude get to pick. Bomber or fighter? It's an RAF buffet. The only option we have then is to successfully draw the 109s off of the bomber flight into a dog fight so that the bombers can continue on and get out of range. If you manage to shoot the 109 down in the process you either have him out numbered or he makes mistakes.

Here's my suggestion for getting rid of this blasted argument:

Remove bombers as flyable from ATAG.

Seriously. Make the AI bombers attack the ACTUAL targets. Fighters have to intercept and destroy them. AT ALTITUDE. This is the only way we're going to see people regularly having dog fights at 15k+. It also gives some meaning to intecepting those ai bombers instead of just padding your score.

And remove the targets in France. Set up them mission so that german bombers attack all the targets. If all the targets are destroyed, blue wins and the server resets. If targets remain, flash a 'Red survive day 1' message and then launch a second wave. Repeat. Red side tries to last as long as possible. This, to me, is FAR more a Battle of Britain scenario than the current mission. I would design this myself, but the scripting eludes me.

(And I use ATAG as the example since it's really the only show in town currently and it will take something big to change that)

You can fly over flak without much worry in a 109 but do it in an 88 trying to drop a load. Its brutal. I've died plenty and always get damaged a lot. I consider myself some what experienced ju88 pilot.

Well, the flak is pretty deadly to our fighters. And you guys have 110s/87s that can carry.

If we had Hurricanes that could carry a bomb, things might be different. Or beaufighters.

Wolverine, I used to fly RAF exclusively, then I switched to the 109 for the challenge, I have flown for both sides.

I am not sure why you are offended though. I have stated that the 109 is a better plane in the game at the right hands, so if a red pilot can consistently out fly me I know that he is a better pilot (not comparing to Spit IIa).

Brit planes ARE easier to pick up, but 109 has more potentials to exploit, for the reasons I've already stated, i don't think I am wrong in any of that (Yes, I know that the Hurricane doesn't have great rear view, but you must have realize the 109 suffers the same?).

If you think that 109s are that much superior and as easy to master, please, come fly with us. As you may have noticed, red pilots almost always outnumber us blue pilots on ATAG. We are not born to fly one sided after all.

Regarding the original post... Sounds like you were versing AI or playing on singleplayer. For some reason AI can roll at light speed and have all sorts of physics-breaking maneuvers.

That makes sense, the 109 is very difficult to master, except for our friend AI

in my opinion the FM and DM is more worse after the last patch! Before in a 109 you had a good chance to outclimb a Hurri and after the Hurri was stalling or turn away you had the option to dive on the Hurri! After the patch there was no chance to do that!:(
The DM from the Spit is overmodeled i think! I have never made it to shoot a Spits wing away, what is no problem to do it on a Hurri. The 109 is made of paper on this DM! Thats what i think about it!

Oleg: Pilots win dogfights. Not airplanes. If a pilot is not particularly good, regardless of a plane, he’ll always have a sinking feeling that something somewhere is wrong… and not everyone is willing to admit that the fault lies within.

+1

Attila, I hope you are being sarcastic. :)

If the performance of 109 did worsen, then I have no idea how lot of us are still out climbing the brits :)

Were you flying the e3 or the e4? They have worse (e4 has the worst) climb rate, but they are still better than the brits (minus the Spit IIas). If they are on your six already, you won't be able to just climb away unless they are bad shots.

Also, remember that players' skill improve, the same people who shot you down 6 months ago must have improved their gunnery and flying skills.

The most deadly flack seems to be friendly flack.. I have been knocked down and killed more by friendly flack than enemy flack…

The 109 has the ability to dictate the fight from an equal energy start against a Spit 1, 1a and even the Rotol (but you have to be very careful against the Rotol as a mistake will most likely get you shot down). That however is not to say that you can just jump in a 109 and whack Spits and Hurris at will. The 109 has to be flown with discipline and extended turn fights leave you extremely vulnerable. When I fly the 109 on ATAG I tend to stick with quick bounces and maintain my energy and avoid prolonged turning duels, whereas when I am flying the Rotol I try and get the 109 driver to engage in a turn fight as this levels the playing field quickly.

JD
AKA_MattE

Real classy guys. I think it safe to say we have seen the AI do all kinds of ridiculous stuff and aren't subject to blackouts or red-outs. Tell me Ace, what tool do I use to measure the triple barrel rolls that stop on a dime and reverse and barrel roll again to know that they are not right?

Gotta love the fans, always willing to help a fellow member.

Exactly! Last night on ATAG when I flew my Hurricane (no rotol!) I got really humiliated by a 109 pilot. He was yo-yoing up and down whilst I was on the deck desperately trying to meet him head-on at every pass he made. I had the biggest of luck though, I hit him in the first pass and he got a fuel leak which he didn't notice so after quite a few minutes of desperate evasive maneuvers he finally ran out of juice and took a dip in to the cold channel.

As I said before, if it's a good pilot the 109 is absolutely deadly.

And the 50's on all the allies planes are under modelled too!!

I find the above pretty amusing. Not because its wrong or something like that, but because its almost word-by-word the same tactical advice as 109 pilots were given in 1940:

"Before turning fights with the Bf 109 E type, it must be noted in every case, that all three foreign planes have significantly smaller turning circles and turning times. An attack on the opponent as well as disengagement can only be accomplished on the basis of existing superiority in performance."

from tactical recommendation based on flight trials at E'Stelle Rechlin, August 1940.
http://www.kurfurst.org/Tactical_tri...g_Aug1940.html

Hehe I remember that, probably around the time the P51 was introduced with the AEP . iirc




.

I will remember those words:cool:

I'm not offended. I'm frustrated and venting a little. It's not personally at you or anyone.

109 is not easy. Never said that. 109 has great potential above that of Ia and Hurri. I shoot down my share of 109s, but usually not the ones flown by competent pilots. And the 109 view on your six is significantly better, at least in my opinion. The rear armour slants backwards leaving you much better high six viewing. The hurricane rear view is a big steel wall that makes checking your own six nearly useless. I'd use the mirror but...exactly.

The biggest part of my frustration comes from blue pilots saying 'it's not hard, fly to your strengths, and the fight is equal'. Yes, absolutely. If I fly at 15k ft and dive only on targets that I have an advantage over, I will kill and not be killed for quite a while. This will not give me much action though. It will also leave all the ground targets undefended.

Flying to the strengths of the Red aircraft basically leaves our targets open for business to attacking bombers. Engaging a 109 co-alt is almost always a death wish. Running from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. Diving from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. You need the height. Baring that, you hope for a head on pass that doesn't kill you...wait, he's got nearly 0 convergence and cannon rounds. ARG!

It's very difficult if you've not followed good procedure and done your homework on when and where to engage. That's GREAT! I love that it's like that. But it's FRUSTRATING because that method of play means Red will lose the map. Until bombers attacking the targets start flying in at 10k+, Red will continue to mostly be bait for 109s. Unless you don't care about winning or losing the map, which some people don't - they just want to get in and kill hun.

We win sometimes, but only when we're lucky enough to have dedicated bomber pilots like Tonka or Torian flying red and systematically throwing blenheims at the charnel house that is France.

To be clear, I don't think the real problem here is flight models or what have you. I think the problem is that the mission setup on ATAG forces Red players who want to play for the mission to fly to their weaknesses and not their strengths and more often than not it results in being shot down.

The only thing we could really try, I think, to level things up is to start bombing from altitude, but with maybe two blenheims at a time trying to put it in the pickle barrel, I think that would take more time to hit the targets than there is time in the mission.

So when I get frustrated or pissed off about blues bragging upon winning a map its because they've already got Red by the short and curlys the moment the map starts.

I've seen plenty of skill in dogfights. I've yet to see skill win the map. It's either luck or time.

Pilots win dogfights. Dogfights don't win wars.

Please remember that blue pilots who say "fly your best, reds, we are equal" are your 109 pilots who haven't learned the 109s effectively enough yet, so yes, they are really equal to the reds :) Those few who have master the 109s will readily admit that their ride is superior.

Also, this is exactly what happens with Boom and Zoom vs Turn n Burn. Historically (and in games) BnZ tends to come out ahead. My only advice is to convert to the dark side :) You are now hampered by your plane, time to expand.

About the Flaks, we blues get taken down just as much. Flying once or twice on the other side doesn't really give you a good picture. Half of my abandons have been due to flaks.

As for winning the mission - really currently it depends on how many bomber pilots each side has, and how closely knitted the teams are on comms. As I have observed, bomber runs from both sides are kamikaze runs. If they reach their target, they either get taken down by flak or succumb to fighters on the way back.

Post a video. Prove that they don't lose any air speed. Prove that you can fly the red tails maneuver.

Anyone can turn at constant airspeed (it's called a sustained turn, durr.) The question is how many G's one can pull. Until you prove it you're just another exaggerating whiner.

:rolleyes:

You're using the AI as a benchmark for performance? Everyone knows the AI cheats.

When did it become unusual to seek an altitude advantage before engaging an opponent? FW190 pilots have been doing this for almost a decade now.

When did diving from above suddenly go from being "flying smart" to "unacceptable"?

Maybe full-real isn't for you, then?

The blue are less affected by flak because they have the high energy doctrine. Flying at high speeds over the enemy territory turn them less vulnerable to enemy anti air.

The reds has little excuse to turn and burn, and go to low speed fights were they are more vulnerable.

Always when i was shot down i argue myself. What i do wrong? Most o f the cases the answer is that i spent to much time in a fight and lost my SA trying to counter a single ac a get shot by another ac.

If you ask i am a pilot who fly better with a wingman. Acctualy my squad mate are busy but we were very succesfull in many virtual war like il2.org.ru using teamwork tactics. One of the tactics we would like to use is to send 2 or 4 fighters ahead over the target at very high altitude while the bomber climb to bombing altitude in a safe area. Once there we track for enemies. Our main objective is simply obligate the enemy leave the area or dive for safe. We put them in a defensive situation. Shot them down is not realy necessary. We dive over and obligate them to go to a low energy condition (diving to base, flaks etc.) We never folow them to lower to 3 or 2k. Once the dive we call the bombers that come high and do the job impunished. If the try to climb once they reack 3k or more we dive over them. This puts the enemy in situation of dispair and frustation. Desperate them start to make mistakes that allow us to shot them down. The key in my opinion is the patience to wait the right moment. You have to create a method or RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. and follow them always. Sometimes i simply send RoE to hell, but always when i join my squad mates and decide to fly under RoE i ll be not modest but we are very good. Fly RoE is very good for the EGO while the enemies go down in mass and your team remains untouchable. May you would like to see IN PURSUIT section 18.9 Engagement and Disengagement page 144. http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf

The secret of the dark side is this. If the Sith go open against the jedi they should be defeated. You have to use tactics and dispersion to reach the objectives. You have to destroy the enemy SA and keep yours to win the fight.

Action is to see your bombers come and punish the enemy defenses hard. And the enemy low there flying like pigeons... While the EAGLES fly high.

Yes... we all know that. When I read the OP's post it appears he is talking about the AI, and your telling him to prove it or shut up? Why would he have to prove it if everyone knows it? That's my point.

When did I ever use the word "unacceptable"?

Stop being so aggressively antagonistic about this discussion.

If you're not a high flying 109 diving onto your targets, I will be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

I'm happy to fly at 15k+. The ACTION I'm talking about is MISSION CRITICAL action. How many bombers attacking Ramsgate Beaufighters have you seen coming in at 10k+? Maybe I need to get my eyes checked, but I have seen ZERO. The only bombers I ever see going for targets are chopping the water with their props.

If I'm a Spit or a Hurricane that low to the deck, I am a sitting duck for you or any 109 pilot. Even a bad one.

If you want to treat ATAG's server as a dogfight server, go ahead.

I'm thankful for ATAG. It's helped create an online presence for the game if not a cohesive community. But the way things usually play out in the missions these days, it's not much fun most of the time. There are other servers running other missions that I like more, but no one plays there. As everyone has said, AI fighters are BAD to dogfight with. Not much fun there either.

So I occasionally vent like in the above posts and I get back to it. Maybe one time someone will think "Hmm, maybe if we try this it'll make it better for everyone." I'm not out to ruin anyone's fun. I'm out to improve everyone's fun. And, yes, that includes people who like to fly Spitfires and Hurricanes. Sue me.

The only thing we can say with any certainty is that no one has yet posting anything that would/could be remotely considered as proof either for or against the realism of the Bf109 FM

Due to the limitations of the human sense observations from the plane itself, or worse yet, the opposing plane consist of too many unknowns to say with any certainty..

Unless the values are way off..

For example a Bf109 climbing straight up for 20kft like an F15 is an error the human senses could detect.. But the human senses are not good enough to even begin to quantify the error (say how big the error is)

That is the reason plane makers more so than not go to all the trouble of instrumenting a plane to 'measure' the variables during the test flight.. As opposed to relying solely on the test pilots real time (radio) or memory of the flight

With that said

When testing how realistic an FM is you need to do the following three things as a 'minimum'

1) Know what the real world values should be for a given test flight.
2) Be able to reproduce the test flight method and reproduce or account for the configuration used during the test flight.
3) Log the same or equivalent in-game data while reproducing the test flight in-game.

Than and only than can you say with any certainty how realistic the FM is..

And know that the acceptable rule-of-thumb error between the real world data and in-game data is about +/-5%

Note.. you will be hard pressed to find any real world data on the energy state or power of a Bf109 performing a 180°! Thus failing one of the three minimum requirements for a test. At which point you would have to 'calculate' in advance what the values 'should be' but that in and of itself can be a real can of worms. Thus it is best to limit your FM testing to the types of testing they did in WWII, in that you will stand a much better chance of finding some real world data to compare to.

Anything less than that is just opinion at best

PS you can log data in CoD using C#

You can counter the enemies low but make sure that you have friends flying higher. The difficult is to find a team that want to take different roles and fly that way:

examples:

you can do a low CAP since you have other guys flying high. I doubt that high enemies ll dive knowing that there are enemies higher too.

If they dive to attack they ll become nice targets too. You only have to join some guys with enough tactical discipline and put the things in practice. Invite some friends and make a plan: while i and 2 go to low CAP, another 4 go to a high CAP over the area etc. The enemy ll think to times before dive and give their altitude advantage.

The problem is to find some to fly this way.

Yes, good teamwork tactics can turn many many situations. I also like to follow RoE. No.401 Squadron has standard operating procedures that are to be followed. They work but are usually not effective at defending against on the deck single bombers. You can't reach them in time. If you stay lower to reach them, 109s get you.

Maybe Goering should have sent all his bombers to England at 10ft above the deck. :P

This is the sort of thing I want too :) And yes, I'm trying desperately to get this going. Why do you think I started 401? :P

So yes, this kind of organization is what we need. I will keep trying.

Like I said many times. These are mostly just vent posts. Back to business as normal.

again Mastiff? You made such tpoic already ones :rolleyes:

a classic :lol:

I find strange that we have been flying this plane for almost 12 months and suddently, somebody makes a terrific discovery that no one had ever noticed before....
Impressive, one never stops learning...
Was it a left turn or a right turn?

Anyway, I am not worried. The patch will fix this, that, tripple fps, cure cancer, soothe hemoroids, whatever.

~S~

+1. Superior height + a wingman cure 99% of the current plane performance issues - apart from the G.50, which is seriously flawed in speed, climbrate and ceiling).

Cheers!

S!

IMHO that statement is way incomplete.

At what speed and G´s???

ANY aircraft can mantain what is called a sustained turn, in which no energy is lost. For a given altitude, airspeed and power setting (provided the engine power is enough) there is always a number of G´s which will give you a sustained turn. if you pull more G´s you bleed off energy (loose altitude or speed). if you pull less G´s you gain energy (increase speed and/or altitude).

It is a little more complicated than that, but that is the big picture. I recommend you take a look to the E-M chart concept. i.e http://www.combatsim.com/review.php?id=133

I agree, the G.50 is the only obviously porked plane at the moment. The ceiling of that things is just ridiculous. Why they porked a plane that was already porked by default is beyond me.:rolleyes:

LOL! Yeah the Fiat G.50 Freccia was the first monoplane of the Regia Aeronautica, low wing, all metal. Not a complete underdog, but very handicapped against Spits and even Hurries in terms of armament, R/T equipment and engine. It took the skills and motivation of the Finnish pilots to achieve 177 victories for the loss of 41 Freccias against the VVS.
And it took the Mc.202 to partially recover the technical disadvantage, while the excellent G.55 Centauro and Mc.205 Veltro arrived too late and in too low quantities.
But again, the G.50 cries for an FM update!

Hi guys, my experience in Clod is limited in flying (since the release) mostly Spit Ia; this cause I wanted to be extremely confident in this mount (at least in one mount) and trained at CEM usage and the general complexity of Clod. I'm educated to combat tacticts since I'm flight simmer since 20 years, this not makes me an ace, I'm well prone to disregard the tactics and I do! My background not prevent me to fall victim of my mistakes (it appens often ;)) but at least I'm able to analyze were my insuccess comes from! I say this to reset discussion about the net-pilots skill. I'm not interested if a success of mine is over a green pilot or inattentive ace and vice versa; I just want to report my experience on the machine.
I find the Spit Ia well underpowered below 4500ft in terms of acceleration, I usually set the prop pitch in 75-65% range to maintain the combat survivability speed of 200-210Mph. For experience I dont excede a continuative Rpm=2650 and boost pressure=5Lbs, this assure me the engine life for the entire mission. The best climb rate is similar to the official supermarine references, at 160Mph I maintain 1800-2000ft/min. At medium altitudes (10000-14000ft) I reach the combat cruise speed of 230-240 Mph with above parameters and plane neutrally trimmed (is essential). What appens every time in multiplayer is as follow: let's say 14000ft leveled, 220 Mph, 109 at my 10' 2-3miles 1000ft higher, I close on his 8' unseen. When I attempt a 40° turn in his direction and a 5-10° climb my speed drops to 180-190. If I force a bit these maneuvers speed drops to 130-110. When the 109 is aware of me evades transitioning from a leveled flight at combat/normal cruise speed and outclimbs me easily by 1000ft or more. It turns to be an excelent energy conserver even at high altitude (the yo-yos well described before). At lower altitudes if catched by a 109, if I menage to keep a certain separation, I'm able to evade forcing him in a gentle and large climb-turn; in the turn his inner squared wing stalls before than elliptical mine.
The roll rate diffrences beetwin 109 and spit is needless to talk about. In Split-s, if u have the right separation and u are the chaser, u can compensate his higher roll rate and u can predict his egress. In steep dive the Spit gains speed better then 109 and u can close on it. Obviously the higer roll rate is better taken in advantage by AI pilot. In this regard I would something about AI-roll rate. Last night on ATAG I closed on a G50, what a kind of arabesque it was able to draw in the sky! 3 minutes of rolls, back rolls, steep climbs, steep turns at a point I thought he was an AI, at the end of his flight (on the ground :-P) the server stated he was human...Great pilot..and great plane! I dont want to refuse any consideration made on G50 FM until today, this is just an episode I want to share with u. BTW, The spit roll rate, I dont know if and how much compared to the real one, seems very poor. Last consideration is about the combat and damage survivability of Bf109. I dont like to rage on what I consider an heavily damaged plane, but to many times I'm downed by 109s with slashed radiators. I like the situation in which I close to the enemy, I spray a generous amount of ammos on him and I enjoy the scene of him sinking in the Channel loosing all his glycole. But to many times he is able to subvert the situation regaining 2000ft of alt and aggressively continuing the fight. When the spit is hit there is no expectation on the engine.
A word would be worth to be spent on ammo belt. A lot of blue players have plenty of grenades thath makes the task easyer, for me I'm more satisfied in adopting an hystorical mix or AP incediaries and Balls as documented by some resources. One of this states '...four guns with ball, two with AP and two with incendiaries (presumably Mk VI) with four of the last 25 rounds being tracer (presumably Mk IV incendiary/tracer) to tell the pilot he was running out of ammunition. It is not clear why ball was used at all; presumably there was a shortage of the more effective loadings. (By 1942 the standard loading for fixed .303s was half loaded with AP and half with incendiary.)...' This is what i go for...
Cheers

Hi pupaxx, I find your post very interesting and your observations are certainly correct. I spent considerable amount of time in all 3 main fighetr planes in the sim and I have to agree.

Here interesting view of blue pilot:

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...and-Hurriecans....

This is very true, although some say the Brit planes are easier to pick up, I find it's CEM more challenging and less forgiving in a way. You can easily damage your engine when you're not careful with your revs and unlike 109, you have to watch your temperatures at all times. In a 109, you have to be careful not to overrev it on the other hand. I adjust my RPM depending on if I am after top speed or acceleration. You can certainly go full power (6.25lbs @ 3000RPM) at a times which helps a bit but you got to be careful not to fry your Rolls Royce, this very much depends on the altitude.

This is the only bit I disagree with. The 109 can certainly dive better (assuming the pilot knows what he's doing with the prop pitch lever) and will extend in a dive unless you cut his trajectory. Moreover he can disappear somewhere you can't follow (neg G) and it can be very dangerous as when he comes up again he will outclimb you like nothing. I don't recommend following any 109 into dive - in fact good Emil jockeys know this very well and they will lure you down to follow them. Don't do that. Never! Climb instead, pick him up when he goes in the climb again and make sure you stay on top of him. This bit is all about timing your manoeveurs right. Make sure you don't lose him for a second as he can and will bite you back.

Me too! I find the sim is well modelled and researched regarding the munition types and belting, the default settings (which I am using 95% of the time) is actually spot on, Mk.I has got early type of belting and Mk.II later type, that is very cool they got this right!

Excellent report pupaxx. Well done.

Hello everyone
I do not produce remarks,but I respond to this topic.
No like that ,that good and bad flying machine.
He and he has benefits and disadvantages for all.
It is necessary to fight with them taking these characteristics into consideration.
There are a good pilot and a bad pilot according to me.
There is him on both sides from them.
Practice does the master!
Salute

Very well said, Herr_Laca! S!

That G50 is a great plane. Takes forever to warm up. Real sexy though. So sexy that even your own guys on blue shoot at you :)

Yeah, the Finns showed a lot of skill and motivation in that plane. Good to know that the developers are aware of the FM problems with the G.50 and are looking in to it at least.

ATAG_Doc: Yeah! lol! first time I got shot at in the G.50 by a friendly I thought it was a one time kind of mistake but that thing just loves receiving lead from both sides.

They get a significant loss of energy when you put bullets in the pilot that's for sure. lolol Fix your aim.

We laugh at your pullets, they are useless against our bullets http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...l/mockface.gif

If you're not a high flying Spit or Hurricane diving onto your targets, I'll be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

Blame the mission designers then, not the aircraft. It's not the Hurricane's fault that the AI bombers come in at 3500 meters.

If you're in any fighter, low on the deck, you're a sitting duck for anyone. Even a bad pilot.


You're implying I'm somehow against people having fun? I'm definitely not. What puzzles me is when people fly on full-real servers and then imply that they don't like to fly high and dive on their opponents. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Any time you engage at Co-Energy, you're doing it wrong.

Well, but finally its a game and it can be great fun to try and find tactics to fight a enemy at co-e or even at e-disadvantage. If i only had one life that would be different. But just diving on a opponent with e advantage is kinda boring to me.

Sigh.

YES, EVERYONE should be attempting get above their targets and dive down on them.

The way the mission is designed is EXACTLY where I'm trying to place all of this '109s are better than Spits and Hurricanes' stuff. The 109 has many TECHNICAL advantages that can be negated by TACTICAL advantages. Those TACTICAL advantages get taken away by the SITUATIONAL REQUIREMENTS of the mission struture.

OF COURSE anyone who is low on the deck is a bad situation. 109 or Spit or Hurricane. But if you're trying to tell me that at equal altitude there's no advantage in being in a 109 (pilot skill considered equal), then you're bonkers. See Recoilfx's posts.

You're SUPPOSED to destroy targets in France/England and protect your targets in France/England. No where in there do I see 'get lots of kills!'. If getting lots of kills was the objective of the map, I bet we would see people jockeying to get higher and higher above each other. You can bet I wouldn't be going out below 18k ft.

But I CAN'T!!!! If I want to defend a target, 18k ft is USELESSSS!!!$!@#$O(#*&%)(%&)(W$*%&

So, the ONLY thing I can try to do is try to get together a skilled bunch of RAF pilots to fly low bomber cover and high fighter cover cap and work together. This is very hard to do with untrained people. I'm working on it, but it's hard.

Let's repeat:

1. I'm not advocating anyone in a 109 change how they play. Keep doing what you're doing.
2. I'm not even advocating that the flight models need to be changed. I certainly would LIKE to have a Spitfire that is more Fire than Spit, but it's not going to do anything to solve the "problems" being presented by 109s diving on their targets. It's not a problem. It's a tactical mistake made by the Spitfire pilot.
3. I AM saying, and have been in nearly every post I've made, that this is mostly VENTING FRUSTRATION at a mission structure that is friendly to the single or pair 109 pilot and very unfriendly to groups of RAF pilots. We need to seriously up our game to deal with something that a relatively adequet pilot on BLUE side can execute no problem (stay high, dive on target - WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO). The appropriate counter measure to this (the low/high cover) is not something that your adequet red pilot can do. It takes some skill.

My suggestion is this as an example. Get 4 pilots to fly together on comms. For some people, that's hard enough. Fortunately, it's getting easier as people get to know each other. Then get two of them to fly at 5,000 ft. Get the other two to fly at 15,000 ft. See if the 15k boys can keep eyes on the 5k boys over the course of 30 minutes. Constantly keep eyes on. That's not easy for experienced pilots I think, let alone fresh ones.

EDIT: Getting frustrated again, but only because you seem to be misreading what I'm saying in previous posts. Let's just call it miscommunication and get back to flying. This'll be my last post on the subject of all this.

That is where teamwork, aka TS3, comes into play!
Bombers should arrange for a escort, low fighters should arrange for a high cover.
Failing to do this, renders all lamenting worthless.

In real life.. The dog fight was the exception to the rule and team work was the rule

In sim life.. Team work is the exception to the rule and the dog fight is the rule

Which is no big whoop..

Until some simmer tries to use his sim experance as some measure of reality

Hm, I thought the FMs are porked and everybody is aware of that? Why the debate?

The debate purpose is to spend some time chatting about our hobby, while waiting for more exciting times. As far as the porked FMs, IMO they are not so much porked to prevent som healthy fun. Spits and Hurries are being killed by 109s, and 109s are downing Spits and Hurries. G.50s are destroyed by both parties.

Cheers!

Hehe, was that a slip of the tongue, so to speak? I like to think we shoot down more than just G.50s! :P

Last time I checked spits were good but too slow still could kick ass... hurris fast but poor cockpit... hmmm I have kicked and had my ass kicked flying both red and blue.

Mastiff I suggest you unbunch your panties while waiting for the new patch.

Reminds me of the old complaints to 1 C Team and Oleg

The Russians "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Germans "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The British "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Americans "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Italians "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Japanese Hmmm "never really heard from them"

It kinda funny to really think that you are flying in an historical manner in an historically correct aircraft in such a sterile environment.

Matching the numbers and tactics is the best to hope for, the rest is pure conjecture and assumption as to who did what and how, we can play at it and hit the fly button again, back then it was a fight for survival and the risk taking practised in this game in real life would have probably resulted in an early death for the pilot and his fellow countrymen.

Its a game have fun with it :)

.

Ok, I know the old saying "Never interrupt you're enemy when he's making a mistake" but in the interest of making things more challenging I’m going to offer some advice to the Red pilots flying on ATAG.
If you want to complete objectives you need to get together with your bomber pilots and tell them that they have to fly where the fighters will have the best chance of protecting them. I am constantly finding Blenheim pilots flying on the wave tops heading directly from their bases in a straight line towards their targets. Climb! Get those Blennys up to 3-4000m, cross the channel a long way to the East or West, and descend behind enemy lines.

I’ve flown a lot of bomber missions on ATAG, and I can count on one hand how many times I’ve been attacked by an enemy fighter before dropping my payload. Sure, my He-111 missions might take 45 to 75 minutes from takeoff to landing, but patience is a virtue. Don’t rush it guys, flying through the "trapezoid of terror" ;) that goes from Littlestone to Ramsgate, across to Dunkirk then Wissant, in a bomber is sheer madness.

Time may be of the essence, but 3 unsuccessful missions straight through the belly of the beast is still worth less than one successful mission flying around all the action.

Exactly. I'd be quite happy to fly escort on missions like this. And now that I know SOMEONE is bringing a bomber across high, I'll be looking for you! :D

Wise words.

Ah well, at least the forum is going to route again it should, FM battles :D

But to throw in my own two cents, I think a lot of red fliers should also keep a few points in mind here.

First of all, most flyers here have years of flying behind them, it's not like reality where only a handful of experten managed to survive, due to the nature of this game, everybody is a pro after a couple years.

Second, the 109 is one of those planes that only starts shining when flown by experts. If you know how to treat her I think every Spit or Hurricane will be in trouble, the difference won't be as pronounced as it is right now, but I personally don't even have a problem with Spit IIs as they are right now (and would have no problem seeing them included back into servers)

Third, in here the 109s are not tied to the bombers like back in those days, which was a huge problem for the german pilots. Not really historical correct in our servers, but something red will have to cope with.

Thus I doubt things will change dramatically when the FMs are corrected for both sides, really.

Just saying to those that think the Spit should rock due to historical legends.

Interesting thoughts, Bewolf, especially about the Spitfire IIa. I don't believe many Blue 109 pilots share your confidence! Just sayin'......

What's the secret?

You'll never find me. ;)

we will find you, we always will find you :wink:

Roll rate, acceleration and given SpitII also means E4, firepower. Thus you will find that rolling scissors, for example, work really really fine

S!

I mostly fly blue but have tested out the red planes as well. I can say that the CEM model of the 109 is a bit off. You can slam the throttle 100% at mission start (no warmup needed) and take it off only when going for landing :) .. And it never overheats too. Also, what little I have used it, WEP doesn't seem to effect the engine negatively either. Only thing that needs attention is the prop pitch.

On the other end of the scale, I think some planes are "overmodelled"(correct term?) in the CEM department, like the G50 and Blenheim. Very long warmups needed... So long that a 109 pilot has done a couple of sorties in the mean time ;) ... Even the slightest variation from the optimal values seem to cause some failure in Blenny.

On the bombers always low issue... well I can say that I personally am an exception. Regardless of the bomber type (thusfar I have flown Blenheim, Ju88, Stuka, 110) I always come to the target area at about 4km and circle behind the target so I can dive towards friendly lines. Any lower, and I get shot by the reds that seem to mostly keep below 2km... Well, not in Stuka... reds get shot when I come with it ;) ... Most Hurri and Spit pilots don't seem to know that it turns better than them.

Well, radial engines HAS to warm up for quite some time before slamming yarn old throttle, so it's quite realistic that the G.50 takes time to get off the ground and also the Blennie.

Some people here said the red planes are the most "pick up and play" friendly but I find the 109/110 to be much easier to manage. Turn on fuel cock(s) start engine, slam throttle and you're in the air. The Blenheim, for example, is the total opposite, everything has to be done with care....lol! no, I slam the throttle on that one too once oil temp is over 30 degrees. Once you know the basics of the CEM it is almost as simple as old IL-2, don't overrev, keep temps in check, check ATA or boost so it's not too high for a protracted period of time etc. The hardest part though is when you are in a dogfight and have to start fiddling with the prop pitch back and forth, looking forward to the Fw-190 in that department or any post E version of the 109's, feeling sorry already for the red flyers in BoM when they try to fly a I-16 or a Lagg-3 with full CEM. I hope the I-16 pilots likes pumping landing gear lol!

Really? :O ... Could you give the reference values for Blenheim, I'll try them out tonight. Every time I've tried it, it seems so super sensitive to anything. I've kept boost under 4 lbs... (water?.. the ones over the shoulder)temps between 200-300 as in G50, are these ok? What oil temp is ok? .. No idea what the RPMs should be :) .. I kept them at about 2000 or something like that. Every time the engines die on me one way or the other. Last time I tried it, was my longest run with airstart in A&A ATAG. I almost got to France before they died. Crashed on the beach :)

S!

Blenheim seems to contradict with the interviews of WW2 vets. Finnish pilot liked it and said it was an easy plane to fly and astoundingly agile for it's size. The CEM needs work in CoD, feels a bit simple to me.

:cool: Air Warrior?

I've started to fly again these weeks on ATAG, and:

I saw plenty of red bombers coming high over France from over the channel.

Flying high with 109 (4-5k) means you see nothing on the deck. not even at 1-2k. If you want to pick low targets, you have to either watch flak (which is rendered at longer distance than other things) or have someone fly low and inform you about them.

Actually, flying high is a BIG problem in Il2CoD, as from above 2-3 k you see nothing rendered on the ground, not even those big damn radar antennas, so, you have to actually come low to lock on your target, or dive blindly hoping for the best.

Also, I've constantly flew Stuka over England, at 3-4k, with no one intercepting me or bothering me in any way.

Regarding the flak, it haven't bothered me at all, not even in Stuka. Flak it is not a problem if you know how to fly against it: as soon as you enter a flak area, start using evasive maneuvers (lateral and most importantly vertical waves).

The worst thing about the ATAG atm is that no one coordinates their flights. NO ONE! Hopefully, Banks's DCE will provide a solid backbone for pilots to be tempted to do it!

Salute!

Just because you are not coordinated you can't accuse the others of not being - I see it all the time. The guys on Red team have their act together. I don't think I've ever seen you on there - the stats page says you have been there 23 times.

What side do you fly mostly? If you are not on comms you wont coordinate at all and that is not anyone's fault.

Each time I'm logging in on ATAG I'm also logging in on ATAG's TS server. I'm playing Blue side only.

I haven't seen in these last couple of weeks any kind of coordinated activity (which is more than 2-3 players acting together), not from Blues, and neither from Reds.

Did you take note of how many total flyer's at the time...I have seen similar, but I attributed it to just the generally low number of people, say 10 each side...I know that they are popular site, but greater numbers are probably after my bed time

Well, there ya go. If you haven't seen it, then it doesn't exist. Never happens. Bad luck, all 'round.

I wonder how many people realize that 15mph difference from stated performance was generally accepted in production aircraft.

I remember reading a report where production P-38s were performing 25mph below their specified performance and over 1000m below their stated max altitude. This happened to be a bit below the army air force cut off and the aircraft went to naca for testing. As it turned out the ducting for the turbo chargers had gaps of a few millimeters. These gaps were enough to make the air turn a bit too turbulent for the turbo-superchargers to ingest properly, and robbed the aircraft of a fairly significant amount of power. This resulted in a max speed and alt quite a bit lower then specified.

Now I'm not saying the FM of this game is completely borked or flawed... but to expect that the performance figures from test aircraft that were probably hand assembled and tested by the best pilots and flown in the best conditions possible... well the stated performance of such test shouldn't be taken as gospel when it comes to aircraft flying on the front lines. Small flaws in production, and the dings and dents that come with field operation can rob and aircraft of a surprising amount of top speed.

And this isn't even getting into the issues of pressure, temps and the like. Which also have a very large impact on an aircraft. Just ask anyone who has flown a cessna on a winter day and a hot, humid summer day.

Well, you're right! if I haven't seen it, doesn't meant there's none at all. But I am right too, because if I haven't seen it, it means it is not the normal case in there, but just a few exceptions I was unfortunate enough to not witness at all :P