Regarding the whining about anti aliasing not working....
 

Anyone heard of Star Wars the Old Republic? One of the most expensive games ever made by a 200+ team with almost unlimited resources?

It does not have anti aliasing - yet... The "are working on it". So please give the poor sods at MG some slack as having both AA and other GPU effects at the same time is obviously not "just a switch"...

http://www.swtor.com/de/community/sh...d.php?t=192825

/Mazex

I've never understood the constant demands for AA. I have good eyesight but I simply don't notice all the jaggies that people complain about.

I do and I don't understand how anyone can create an engine that doesn't support it properly. CloD was released 2011 and not 2001.

S!

It is the same as some people want 250fps when using an insane resolution with gazillion of applied FSAA/AF etc. There will always be a trade off between eyecandy and performance, can not have it all. I do VERY rarely use FSAA or AF forced via CCC, usually the in-game settings work the best for me and even then I am on the more conservative side while applying. As Sutts said..you hardly notice them, at least in heat of battle :D

Question

Does forcing AA on with Nvidia Inspector work as it did for IL-2 1946?

My old comp did not run Clod well so I never tried it but I just built a new comp and am waiting for a dang wireless networking card to come in so I can load "steam" on it.

XXX are you saying?
I play with AA in-game and it works, its a mod and you can find it in this forum

Oki fair enough. But when did last get a check-up at your eyesight? ;) Sorry - Cut not resists.
I clearly see a huge diffident between have it or not have it. Im using "injectSMAA_by_mrhaandi_1.2" at the moment to compensate for the leak of AA in the Sim. It work great. Try it out and see if it all looks the same for you Mate.

~S~

that isnt proper AA, the main prob is people are forced to use low resolutions for dot visibility which inturn increases the jaggies ten fold.

Must give that a try thanks. My card is so poor I must run at 1280 something and adding AA would probably kill it completely but it's worth a try.

Take a look here. ACE-OF-ACES did a great post there and it worked well for me.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=28978

~S~

You missed the initial post? Like I said, Star Wars the Old Republic one of the most hyped and expensive games has ever been done with a budget that is probably about 100 times bigger than CloD. It was released in december 2011, without working AA, and it's still not working but the devs "are working on it for a patch real soon, like in two weeks" ;)

There is AA in SWTOR now and worked fine from launch for me when i forced aa from ati CCC, with nvidia you can force it from INI file, but no need anymore there is ingame aa settings too.

Ok, here we go with some 3d history that can help you to understand the state in the 3d industry about AA.

AA was introduced some years ago in the fixed pipeline as a hardware/driver feature, so developers just needed to tell the GPU to activate it and the GPU did all the work. You even could activate or deactivate it from your GPU driver configuration. That is how fixed pipeline engines worked and still works. Of course in fixed pipeline engines developers are limited to what drivers and hardware can do (no great fX or effects, only common and standard things). Now we have non fixed pipeline engines, wich works with shaders, where developers can (and have to!) control all about the rendering process, which is extremely more complicated and time consuming, but we can have bump mapping, nice reflections and plenty of other nice FX, only limited by imagination, hardware processing time and time to develop and optimice it. Important thing is that now all is coded by developers, including AA. In this kind of egines AA is no more automatic and need to be manually coded as post process filter over the whole image. Thats why even if you turn on AA in drivers configuration in no fixed pipeline engines it do nothing. Hardware do no calculate it automatically anymore, not AA, not anything. Coding AA filter shader is not easy if you want it to be efficient and not blurring all the image. You need to identificate manually all edges and so on... So give devs a break, things are not easy anymore as we ask for more fx and eyecandy. It can be done, but need time if you also want a lot of fps.

Thank you for the info, Ailantd.

Yeah, deferred rendering has made the formerly easy step of adding AA very difficult.

And that is why you see tons of modern games that lack support for AA entirely - games like Crysis, Battlefield 3, Dead Space, Mass Effect.

It is hardly a problem unique to cod.

you did use one word that in the 40s may of been classed as swearing .

this place is a joke lol

Anyway if you are able to use FSAA ( Fixed pipeline AA ) it will crop your FPS a 20% or 30%, making the game unplayable in some systems, because is a hardware demanding AA technique.

Even so Luthier said that it will be implemented but guess that it will not very soon, remember that they are currently rewriting the graphic engine so it needs get working before add things.


You guys should try until then my post-process SMAA configuration :

It is not perfect so you will see some jaggies here and there under some circumstances but have no frame rate impact at all and does a high quality AA without blurring everything.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...99&postcount=5

I just tried it. It's not bad. Thanks.

I was using the FXAA, but online is not that good, because it blurs all the dots. It's hard already to spot planes at longer ranges and that post processing blurs the dots too much. So I wasn't using it online.

Yours looks like it should work online. It still has some jaggies here and there, but it's way better then nothing.

This thread was simply bait for the mods to have a field day with the "corrective actions". It's obvious people would argue about this. Just because some game on this entire market was released without working AA, it doesn't makes it right.

Crysis had AA implemented but not AF ;) . Don´t know about Crysis 2 though, haven´t played it in a while :D . To me AF is more important than AA, because i got the feeling that with TFTs, AA got more and more useless, especially with very high dpi. AF on the other hand...

In the past when I was using AA I had to reduce my resolution in order to improve my dot visiblity to a useable level.

Now that I've disabled my AA setting I can actually see the dots at the full native resolution of my monitor (1680x 1050).

My understanding of AA is that it works by blending the colours found in adjacent pixels (by a variety of methods). This is bad for seeing fine detail in the images.

Cheers!

So how does this company getting it wrong absolve 1C of their mistake/failure to release this part of the sim in a functioning form?

Its like accidentally running over a hooker, and then telling the cops hey its alright, my rich neighbors freezer is FULL of dead hookers, so I'm good.

Or something like that....:-P

+1

LOL reminds me of the calibrate your monitor scam over the gaudy graphics that 1C fixed.

The thread serves a purpose and is not trolling as you suggest but putting a fair point across and consequentially useful information that you yourself have seen fit to use and have good results in CoD.

The fact is you posted in here in an aggressive manner and the post was edited.

No ones arguing about it in here only you.

Now go back and delete your posts that have no use in here before the infraction system kicks in please. (this post will be deleted once that's done)

I suggest to all that instead of knee jerk reaction posting you actually read the information on this forum for your own benefit.

Your too quick to start wailing and whining and accuse others.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...859#post387859

Remember were here to help ALL forum members have a pleasant visit and interaction here.

Thanks.

Crysis sorta has msaa, but not on things like vegetation. They actually used a hybrid solution where there is a post-aa effect on some things. Crysis 2 is even weirder - it uses temporal aa on far away objects, and something sorta like smaa on nearby objects. As for AF - it doesn't work with their implementation of parallax mapping, and almost everything on the ground uses parallax. I think it does work if you turn off parallax mapping though.


Because getting true AA working with a deferred rendering pipeline is very, very difficult - and some of the greatest programmers working in real time 3d haven't been able to figure out how.

But hey, maybe you can figure out how!

I managed to force AA with Nvidia fine with minimal to no FPS loss.

Yes, now it is much more difficult than 10 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_shading

Sadly not everyone makes his research before posting which makes some posts look like ignorant speculations aimed to insult developers.

Thank you for detailed explanation!

AA is for plebs. Buy a bigger video card , buy a "27+ monitor , and you wont need AA.

+ 1/Thanks for that one. Excellent job with a real good tweak to CLOD. I just change my standard to yours, because it work great for me. Great improve.

~S~

MSAA doesn´t work and has never worked with alpha channels. It only works on geometry, that is why there was Transparency-AA (NVidia) or Adaptive-AA (ATi) introduced.

Actually i´m starting to lose track of all the different AA techniques, temporal AA? SMAA? phew.

is all of your 349 posts like this? the bigger monitor u have the more need for AA

Or the german abbreviation "LMAA" comes to mind regarding al the aa's. :D :D :D

That´s definitely the best technique, lol.

That does put things into prespective.. Thanks mazex

By the way Red

I added Buchon's settings to the JSGME selection some time ago.. You can dl ver 2.4 here

JSGME FXAA and SMAA utils

Enjoy

Awesome! Thanks for putting this together with the mod enabler. Thats what I use for SilentHunter 4 and 5 mods as well.

Loving the AA right now. The other planes don't look like they were built outta Lego's anymore. ;)

That was the easy part.. The guys to thank are the guys who made the tools and the guys like Buchon who spent alot of time using the tools to find the best settings for CoD

Hahahah, it has gotten really confusing! (and transparencies + MSAA + deferred = NOPE)

ogssaa, sgssaa, msaa, fxaa, mlaa, smaa, dlaa, ebaa, sraa and more! All have advantages and disadvantages, and there are those who will argue in favor of one or the other. It can sorta turn into a pissing match of opinions where opinion matters more then fact.

But this is a pretty good resource for understanding the different types of aa currently in use; http://naturalviolence.webs.com/generalaa.htm

AA is a tough thing. It can kill performance but it also boosts image quality. And games are all about a trade off - speed vs image quality. Finding the proper balance is hard - and different games/situations complicate things further. Untimely though you'll never satisfy everyone - even ssaa has its detractors. But maybe we'll start agreeing until we can do real time raytracing and the like... probably not.

Timothy Lottes, an nvidia developer, has a blog that has delved into some of these issues, and if you follow video game forums then you can see just how divisive this issue can be amongst the "hardcore" gamer set. Even in the company of "gamers" the solution isn't clear - some people prefer the artificially high micro-contrast/sharpness that games create.

His blog is here: http://timothylottes.blogspot.com/

Untimely "sharpness" is a difficult thing to quantify and AA only solves part of the problem, but that is beyond this discussion.

Also, I should mention that AA works fine if you run the game in DX9 mode. There was a post where luther confirmed that the game is using a deferred renderer in DX10 mode, but DX9 is a "traditional" forward renderer. So, if you want AA you can have it, just don't complain when you don't have the fancy shader and lighting effects of DX10 mode! aka il2 mode!

And I don't mean to come off as terse in my posts. It's just that I've been working on a game for the past ~1.5 years that uses a deferred renderer.. and AA has been a near constant headache for us. I can understand why COD has the problems that it does, but most people seem to think its 2004....

EDIT: I've been screwing around with forcing OGSSAA in COD, but doing so with my semi-old ati card, a 4870x2, it doesn't seem to work. Can someone with a nvidia card, or a newer ati card try to force it? I know it'll make performance unbearable, but it'd be cool to see radio wires without jaggies :)

SSAA with ATi cards works only on DX9 Engines.

BTW, how do you set SG- or OG- MS(SS)AA with ATi cards??

This is completely untrue. I have 2x GTX 580's and a 30" monitor. CoD shimmers like crazy even on 2650 x 1600. This is the only game I have that won't allow the video card to force it.

Yes it does. It means CoD is worse than SWTOR. At least you can force it on that game.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/12/20/en...-simple-steps/

Through drivers, sure

But there are other ways to force it

http://www.tommti-systems.de/start.html

And there are other ways beyond tommti tool - like powerstrip down sampling. But I haven't messes around with that much.

Worse?

I think you missed the whole point of the post..

That being that even a big software project with a big bugets and big teams are missing some so called 'standard' features that were not fully implimented upon release.

Not a mater of better or worse IMHO

I wouldn't say that, because what might be true for one may be false for another.. That is to say beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Sounds like you have a hardware issue.. Because I have 1xGTX570 with a 3840x1024 monitor and I get no shimmers.. And very good frame rates.

So what does this prove?

Only that PCs and people are different.

I have no hardware issues. But your res is really low. 1024 vertical res is WAY lower than mine. Perhaps you are just used to low quality.

SWTOR has it CoD does not. Proves the op is wrong.

AA makes a big difference in picture quality and to deny it is just dishonest or incorrect, otherwise you would not have gone to all the trouble to find alternative solutions.

Well, a BIG THANKS to ALL parties involved. I really appreciate the shared work. ;)

The sim does have problems. Understanding the reasons behind the problems can help understanding why they take so long to get fixed.

Or we can just pretend that the gameplay mechanics and view distance requirements of a 3rd person, low altitude camera game are the same as a flight simulator so we can complain a bit more, to no feasible gain might i add :rolleyes:

It's pretty clear from the preceding posts that AA today is a whole lot more complicated to implement if we want DX10 and above special effects, plus the separate pros and cons of each method factor in the choice of the implementation depending on the requirements of each gaming engine.

And since people have selectively short memories, let me refresh them a bit by citing an example of a currently successful sim: Does anyone remember RoF a couple of years ago? Shimmering land textures at distance, no AA and no dual-GPU support. Does it sound familiar maybe?

Most of those problems took about 18 months to sort out, with a team of comparable size to the CoD project and a product that had a more "aggressive" marketing model (meaning, an incremental yet near constant cash flow during the first few months).

In other words, if we want AA done correctly without having to buy add-ons on a per-flyable basis we have to either give them time to work and welcome the fact that a sequel is in the works to boost their cash flow, or code it ourselves.

I don't mean to sound harsh here, it's the realities of flight sim development that are harsh. ;)

I agree with you 100%. Thats not what I am arguing. I'm taking issue with the lie that AA does not matter and has little or no benefit to visual quality, thus those who want it are just whiners or have hardware problems. I'm not complaining about the devs. When we get it, CoD will look better than it does now, thats all.

What grafics settings have you got?

Well, I played SWTOR a lot in December when it was released and then it did not have it, even though it had an option in the settings it did not work, just like CloD. I haven't played it since early January and it didn't have it then but I realize from other posters here that it got it in version 1.1? Anyway, I played to level 28 without it and really enjoyed it anyway.

My point was that at release, SWOTR did not have it as using a lot of fancy Dx10 effects makes AA a lot harder than in the Dx9 days as aliantd and others have explained in detail in this thread. I just wanted to point out that fact as many remember that all games ten years ago had AA, and say stuff like "come on, it's not 2001 - how can a game get released in 2011 without it! ". That's the point, games with 100 times the budget of CloD do get released without it today, but not in 2001...

Mazex

Thanks Ace.

I will download those and try them out today. :D

Cheers

Some don't have it in GUI, but not many get release with no video card able to force it, even in 2012.

Maybe, but all we know for sure is that there are people with settings and setups like yours that are not having the issues you are having.

Disagree 100%

As your 2650 horizontal res is WAY lower than mine (3840)

Nope, as noted above I just prefer a wider peripheral view

Ill take your word that it has it, but based on the link it requires a hack, as in not aval to all via the GUI.

But your still missing the whole point here.. That being that upon release SWTOR did not have it, just like CoD did not have it. And SWTOR has a much lager budget and team than CoD.

I noticed you didn't provide a quote of me saying that it does not make a big difference

Do you know why you didn't quote me saying that?

Because I never said that.

As in-game settings or Nvidia settings?

Both, if possible? I'd really like to try them out as my GTX 570 has a few slowdowns now and then at 1920x1080. Thank you in advance.

Sorry, but you're wrong. SWTOR didn't offer an in-game FSAA option, but you could implement FSAA through the drivers without problems. At least for NVIDIA cards.

CloD still doesn't work with FSAA unless you use the FXAA injector, which is still just a workaround and no real substitute for workign FSAA.

But the apologizers will, as usually, continue their "it's fine, be sure" song. Nothing new here.

worked with Ati too from launch.

Your horizontal is high in pixel count as you are running a multi monitor res. 1024 on a monitor is very low res or very small image. Both inferior to mine. Wrong again dude, even the total pixels are much smaller than 2650 x 1600.

Wrong again, not missing the point. SWTOR was always able to force it with the videocard drivers with a config hack. Unlike CoD.

Wrong again, I was not talking about you I was refering to post #30, that is why I did not quote you. Although you did say I might have shimmering due to a hardware problem which is also completely wrong.

You are wrong a lot.

And the glass half empty horde will stand in the bar arguing with the bartender while the rest get drunk and try have a good time even though the new chairs are a bit wickety ;)

Agreed 100%

My horizontal pixel count is higher than your horizontal pixel count

Put another way, you only have 69% of the horizontal pixel that I have

Where

69% = 100*(2650/3840)

Agreed 50%

My vertical pixel count is is lower than your vertical pixel count

Put another way, I only have 64% of the vertical pixels that you have

Where

64% = 100*(1024/1600)

Disagree 100%

And note you are switching between talking about the resolution to talking about the image size

And in that regard my setup puts yours to shame!

I have a much lager view (image size) than yours!

Size wise I 'choose' horizontal (perihelial) over vertical..

Why you ask?

Well it should be apparent, but allow me to explain just encase it is not

A larger vertical view means you can see more of your cockpit floor and top of your canopy (your case)
A larger horizontal view means you can see more of the useful sky, what is left and right of you (my case)

Of the two

I think we can all agree that seeing a plane to your left or right (horizontal), at any time, is more useful information

More useful than the context of your cockpit floor, like the visual position of your rudder pedals.

Sorry, but that is incorrect

As you can see above, your horizontal pixel count is only 69% of mine, thus your horizontal pixel count is inferior to mine

Really?

I noticed you didn't provide a quote of something I said that was wrong

Do you know why you didn't quote me?

Because I didn't say anything that was wrong.

Agreed 100%

My total pixel count is lower than your total pixel count

But not by much..

Put another way, I only have 93% of the total number

3932160 = 3840 x 1024
4240000 = 2650 x 1600

93% = 100*(3932160/4240000)

Nope your still missing it.. And the fact that it was a hack and not part of the GUI proves it

Really?

I noticed you didn't provide a quote of something I said that was wrong

Do you know why you didn't quote me?

Because I didn't say anything that was wrong.

Did not a could not

Maybe, but all we know for sure is that there are people with settings and setups like yours that are not having the issues you are having.

Just to be clear

For those who may be reading this..

Note that icarus has yet to quote anything I said that would qualify as being wrong

As for what he 'thinks' I said or saying.. Well I can not be held responsible for that

3840 x 1024 is 3 x lower res screens at 1260 x 1024 each. Lots of low res pixels spread over three screens. So quality-wise, not pixel amount size, it is 1260 x 1024 vs 2650 x 1600. 2650 x 1600 30" monitors are by far higher quality and actually is the highest quality monitor res at this time. There is one 3840 res monitors which is $18,000 and are only 22" diagonal for medical purposes. For those who may be reading this. The resident know-it-all-spammer-obsessive quoter/arguer cannot admit when he is wrong on all counts. :rolleyes:

I would be more than willing to admit to something I 'said' was wrong, if it truly was wrong. But I can not admit to it yet because you have yet to provided (quote) what I said that you consdier to be wrong.

LOL :rolleyes: Big surprise another quote.

This is pure goldhttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...chdrama8jm.gif

so far its a definite points victory to Ace, lol.

Well I am done playing tit for tat with you.. No reason to muddy up this thread pointing out over and over that you can not quote anything I said that is wrong, thus we will have to leave it at you got nothing to support your claims.

LOL another quote. :rolleyes: Pure gold is right.

Guys please stop provoking each other and the name calling before i have to start dishing out the infraction points! ;) Who wants to win the points score then? ;)

I just quickly looked through this thread, so maybe it slipped through....

My question: Is the AA subject addressed by Luthier and Co? Just want to know whether or not it will be reworked so that it will work in the future?

Thx mates!

Now AA works on some surfaces and does not work on other due to technological difficulties described above. The devs are reworking the graphics engine and will manually program AA after that. I am sure they will try to make AA work better than now before BoM is out. Whether or not they succeed in this depends on problems they face in the process and deadline set by 2 publishers I think.

An impression I got reading sukhoi.ru forums is that deadline for aircraft modelling is very tough already. I think it might be even more tough for programming taking into account how many bugs must be fixed. Thus my conclusion is only time will tell when we can have AA. Maybe they decide to include some quick&dirty AA technology but it will have disadvantages like texture blurring, etc.

Thanks Ataros for the quick reply. That the devs are aware of the problem and try to fix it in the future, is what I wanted to hear :) I'm sure, in the end, we all will be very happy with this sim!

Its funny that you use this game as an example, I think they also have alot of graphics issues, the shadows are horrible and not well implemented, many other graphics options that they have not enabled in the GUI but you can enable some though the config file... it is similar to this game as well.

You have to wonder if the complexity of the graphics of todays games is somewhat out of control when you see these issues...

Espically for the game makers trying to make use of the new DX11 feature levels.. Which may explain why RoF is still a DX9 based game?

Years in development and years away from be finished. Or perhaps it will never be finished. Perhaps they bit off more than they could chew, even without having any new DX 11 features.

Well, it's been said before, Il2-1946 isn't finished yet, lets look at the still unfinished Il2-CoD in ten years. (Though, maybe running on DX25 then :D)

Agreed, but there is unfinished and there is unfinished. They are not the same by any measure. CoD has had far worse reviews that Il-1946 ever did and is far more unfinished than its predecessor was on release.:shock:

Good point..

It is really too bad that more CoD users are not familer with how 1C handled the IL-2 product line, because than and only they would they understand the defintion of unfinished wrt 1C products

Is it really necessary to walk this ole route again???

Been there, done that, tooo damn many times.

Not so sure about that, i've got formula 1 2011 running in directx11, with nice aa, so it can be done for sure.

If a game is 'Finished' it means that the developer is no longer supporting the product as far as i'm concerned. No game is ever technically finished , it will always need patching for new hardware ect.

Yes it is necessary when people keep repeating the falsehood that CoD is no different than Il-1946 when it was released as both were unfinished (been there done that too many times) when clearly it is very different. The reviews prove it so.

He would not have to repeat that IL-2 was not finished if you would not start this flame above. Thus it is 100% your responsibility:
Let's get back ontopic to AA.