What's up with the trains
 

People go on and on about how he modelled the trains to the point of people joking that it's Train Simulator 2011.

Well I was doing a free flight over England in a BF-110 and low and behold I come across a train! Feeling frisky I decide to strafe it. I come in broadside and give the train itself the beans. 4 mgs and 2 cannon just blasting away. Well guess what? I stayed on the tracks! Pftt, some modeling. The weight of fire would easily derail it. WWII footage shows P-51s and 47s blowing trains off the tracks all the time. The BF-110 should surely do the same.

Even a new movie coming out shows how damaging .50cals are against trains, let alone explosive 20mm shells would be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4QNoTOz1U8

Kinda disappointed.

Hmmm, it would take more than the weight of aircraft cannon & machinegun fire to physically tip a locomotive weighing many tons off its rails. A secondary explosion, such as from an ammo car or fuel tanker may be enough to derail a moving train, especially if the force of that explosion was at an angle to the direction of the rails/direction of travel.

Movies also show people being launched many feet backwards by the force of a 12 gauge shotgun (both barrels, no less) but fail to show the shooter getting similarly launched in the opposite direction by an equal degree.

EDIT: This is my favourite train attack scene taken from Dark Blue World: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0stVlJXAsbQ

I cannot possibly imagine that George Lucas' research team didn't take that into consideration.

Besides, if .50's can disable Tiger tanks, they can derail trains, no sweat.

If your bullets hit in the firebox area of the boiler and the crown sheet ruptured then indeed the loco could be blown off the tracks by the almost instant conversion of all the water into live steam and then exhausted into the cab of the loco.

Not real good for the crew though...

Sorry but when I see this scene where the P51 turns basically on the spot ... pffff. Someone said George Lucas? I say tie fighter ... says it all ...

The pilot obviously mapped his trim on a slider... reasonable guess, at least.

Well, have to admit, I really hate CGI effects like that (Sooo tanfastic and completely overmodelled - overrules G-effects completely!!!).
And no, none of those action scenes seem realistic. The P-51 pilot that did that stalling wingshot wasn't even part of the Red Tail sqdr.


DK-nme

Indeed. With an abrupt boiler detonation the unleashed force is equal to a moon rocket. A loco with 100 tons of mass easily could be thrown a hundred of meters away.

Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiler_explosion

True enough. I guess you could call that a "primary" explosion if caused by cannon/machine gun fire. I still maintain the weight of the projectiles themselves, even at a velocity of, say, 2,000+ ft/sec wouldn't be enough in themselves to topple or derail a locomotive. Unless the aircraft ran into it as well! LOL

But to the OP's post, if perforating the locomotive's boiler results in a catastrophic explosion.........then it SHOULD be launched off the rails in a huge plume of steam! I stand corrected on that. :)

Result of boiler explosion on a C&O H8 loco. These had the largest boilers ever put on a steam locomotive...

Well I'm thankful that we have working station clocks vs trains blowing up good

No kidding. Do people actually think a bullet can knock a train locomotive over? Do some math. What's the momentum of a 20mm round? What's the inertia of a train? Here's a hint: One is many orders of magnitude greater than the other.

If part of the train is exploding and the explosion pushes it off the tracks then the explosion pushes the train off the tracks, not the bullets.

This is the same as that "50 cals flipping over tiger tanks" nonsense.:rolleyes:

I'll take real pilots testimony over an interweb hero any day on both accounts

Pilots can be mistaken. You're probably one of those guys that reads an account saying "My spitfire turned inside the 109" without any info as to speed, altitude, or even which spitfire or which 109, and then decides that ALL spitfires must out-turn ALL 109s under ALL conditions.

That's the problem with blindly following pilot accounts.

It's not interweb heroics, it's mathematics. Math doesn't change from the 1940s to today. Memories given in post-war interviews do change.

50 cals can flip Tigers right over!! :cool:

So our heros are liars then? How can we believe they shot a plane down, they could have been mistaken, hell they were probably in the infantry through the war and forgot and now believe they flew planes.

Did I say they were liars? Don't put words in my mouth, son.

I said they can be mistaken.

I can even flip a King tigers over with a well aimed fart, Yankee P51 pilots sure as hell could!

I mean c'mon, Yankees won the war right?

Why shouldn't a 0.50cal throw a train off the tracks? Just look at what Mustangs armed with 0.50cals did to both the Bismarck and the Tirpitz! Or when they totally flipped over a KingTiger in Normandy who landed on Rommel himself, killing him.

cannon shell is tiny compared to 70 tons of locomotive. you need massive amount of energy to move such huge thing even a feet and your average 20mm cannoshell just does not have it. Think man.

Sounds like a boiler explosion to me. Pretty sweet that the DM for trains includes such a thing. Definitely not knocking a train over by the "weight of fire" though.

Anyone with a basic grasp of physics can tell you it just doesn't happen.

Please show the math that it isn't possible.

Go play pool, just replace the white ball with a tiny marble and see what happens. No need for an equation.

But if I throw 1000's of marbles at very velocities and are high exsplosive it's different

The math would not be all that bad, assuming certain simplifications. However it's quite unnecessary. Consider that a P-51 weighs about 9000 pounds. Now I have found that locomotives vary hugely in mass, but let's assume a 50 (imperial) ton locomotive, which is on the low end. That's 100 000 pounds.

The forces subjected on the locomotive cannot be more than the forces of recoil subjected on the aircraft. In fact since a great deal of energy will be expended by the bullets in puncturing the metal of the locomotive, it will in fact be much less, but the force of recoil is an extreme upper limit. If the energy in the bullets was sufficient to throw a train--weighing over 10 times as much as the aircraft--off its tracks then the aircraft would come to a dead stall after only a very short burst. Myths about the A-10 included, this is patently ridiculous.

Oh and of course this is just the locomotive itself, it becomes even more absurd if you consider the mass of the train cars.

Yes, but the plane has momentum flying forward which adds a lot to energy in the bullets. Come to think of it, most accounts I have read or seen on TV were pilots flying the P-47. Now if a massive Jug is in a transonic dive firing 1000's of .50 bullets from its 8 guns, that is a real wall of lead traveling at insane speeds. Now these pilots, who were there and saw with their own eyes say they knocked trains off the tracks I will believe them over some random guy on the web.

Damn good spot you found here.:-P


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ws/7_3_112.gif

But I have to say, your bait is getting old.

Watch the loco in my sig, it is a rather medium one. Its weight is about 84 tons, without tender.

Bullets are not the main cause of a loc explosion.

Remember that the steam of a loc is caused through heatening the water inside of the boiler.
The water tries to expand, but can only through the vent for its cylinder.
You have 170-210°C by 12-16 bar inside the boiler.

Now you have a A/C firing on it. The bullets only put some holes in it.
But what cause the explosion is, that the hot pressurized water now can depressure to the point where it becomes steam.
And that steam begins to expand so fast, that it rips everyting apart.

For those who don't believe in science or math (there's no nobel prize for math) and only in moving pictures, there was an episode of "Mythbusters" where they overheated a normal house boiler. It went through the roof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWnL8SipXT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rXwc...eature=related

lamo

Rowan Atkinson never gets old :D

Everyone should note (and Cheesehawk has wisely pointed out) that this is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the barrel, which is something like Mach 3.5 at sea level. The bullet will decelerate rapidly during the time it takes to leave the barrel and strike the target.

Sorry I'm not going to sit around and wait for History Channel/Discovery Channel to play the particular show, record it for you, rip it and post it on the net. Nor will I go to the library and find the books, scan them and upload them either.

Try some research outside of google and wikipedia for a start

Sorta sounds like the same responses you got on the Ubi forums back in April , doesn't it? :)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...819#1501019819

Isaac Newton is turning in his grave. :sad:
And knocking over tanks with machine guns? A very close miss of a 500 Lbs bomb could do it but not bullets.
And where would one find that info that is not on Google or Wikipedia? Can you give the title of the book or the name of the show? Maybe we have to dig at the end of the rainbow?
School system really sucks this days. :-x

This from the guy who won't educate himself on the physics of the train-flipping thing and expects us to do the math for him? :rolleyes:

Oh I see. Well, we got trolled then.

I'm just re reading The Hardest day by Alfred Price, and it is clear that you cant always rely on pilots testimony, he describes one German bomber that was claimed by up to 4 pilots, all had attacked it and seen it go down smoking, so all gave factual accounts of what they saw, it was what they didnt see that was the problem, how would a pilot know for sure that when he attacked the Tiger tank it wasn't also under artillery attack at the same time, it's that old fog or war.

As for the cannons or bullets knocking a train off a track, well that's just not possible, unless of course the boiler explodes or a shell may damage the tracks and derail it but most times you would think the boiler would be hit from the top and just let off a huge fountain of steam.

Well maybe i can help our little troll. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTaddev6KQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQJfGjyEk4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKomz...eature=related

Busted! Good catch.

My question is: Currently all trains are AI-controlled. Are there no plans to make them flyable?

Funny thing is that he posted this a while back in another thread: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...317#post257317
:lol:

Hmmm, seems he's a little fixated on this topic! LOL

Just more proof with the video and went to the active forum :confused:

So Dayglow answer me this.......

If 200 or so 30mm HE/DU (A-10) can't move a 41t T-72, how in the hell can a few hundred .50 or 20mm rounds move an 85 -100t locomotive??

Really.....give it up!

That's why I said he's bait is getting old.

Ahh, well I guess you were too subtle for me to pick up on that. Good "catch" though. ;)

utter nonsence most these holywood films.