Don't you feel ripped off as a console gamer?
 

Before the loyal disciples jump in with all guns blazing, I am a fellow gamer that has grown tired of the pc community, having to shell out constantly for upgrades etc in order to stay at the cutting edge of gaming & like many other gamers, I now want to enjoy a great experience on a great console, from the comfort of the sofa in front of a nice big LCD HD TV.

I've stuck to my word so far; I've started posts here, airing my views re: this title & I am far from a fan but I have done the right thing & left the game, left the community & its forum so as not to want to ruin it for the guys that do enjoy this game ... When you give ur view & realise you have bought something it's not, what's the point in staying around moaning about it.

It's just that 2 things have since come to my attention & as a customer of console software & products, I just want to know if it's just me that feels so underwhelmed, let down & cheated?

I won't dwell on my many disappointments in this title & will not compare it to its PC counterpart (although why I feel I shouldn't is perhaps strange as for one, it is a title that shares the esteemed name to an untouchable pc combat sim & so why shouldn't it be compared, & another; its pre-build up was to always maintain its realism & immersion that I personally believe, falls way short of even Over G Fighters).

Firstly there's OPERATION FLASHPOINT: DRAGON RISING. The original was a masterpiece & even the last gen xbox saw a great port over that treated the console gamers with respect, in keeping every aspect of the game intact, which included the powerful mission editor; it was great fun.
Along comes the much waited Dragon Rising & the console community are now told that although the game will be some 15 to 20 quid dearer than the PC offering, it will ship WITHOUT any form of mission editor & therefore any form of replayability whilst the PC gets the works as per usual. (Shopto.net are pre ordering it on pc for something like £18).

This is mirrored a treat in IL-2 also. Wanna take off & land in PC IL-2; fine. Don't wanna bother but instead set up a quick training type battle in just a few clicks that gives you the choice of multiple wingmen, fellow bombers & such against a multitude of enemies in mixed aircraft, fine also. How about a more detailed tool to create an entire mission? ...go for it, it's all there & the best thing. You only ever needed around 4 or 5 keyboard inputs to create all of this. You telling me that todays consoles cannot harbour this ability to give a console gamer this option when say the original xbox proved otherwise with op flashpoint 1 & even Far Cry?
Imagine the replayabilty you would be having if you could choose to simply start your training mission from the ground & return there, to fly with a few more wingmen. Just that would do wonders. I'm not even asking for the flyby cam anymore or even any form of visual replay theatre (although how a game of this calibur ever thought it could do without it is way beyond me).

Secondly, & the final insult is the absolute JOKE re: this DLC & NOT FREE AT THAT!!!!!
I was so looking forward to this title for such a long time that I stupidly ordered it for both my xbox & PS3 as I just knew that it would be a different experience with each consoles. Nobody forced me to buy them, that's true but I did right enough. It's a shell of a flight game as it is & an extremely broken one at that but to charge gamers what could arguabley have been in the title in the 1st place is an absolute joke. £40 for a console title that is worlds apart from the IL-2 Sturmovik Series isn't enough then.

OK I am from a community that makes skins for IL-2 online for ppl to share & vice versa. IL-2 1946 that came out only a few years ago was the complete series in one & cost in the region of £25 with the addons that were boxed with a dvd & instruction booklet were around a tenner online & not to mention the replayablity still today in new aircraft being made, all free ofcourse etc (just check out youtube).

I want desperately to not feel cheated or patronised as a console gamer. We're not all MarioKart, Blazing Angels, COD arcade heads. Most ppl probably on this forum would wish for something more for what they're paying in comparison to the PC populous.

Who here, took a little comfort from the campaign missions in having the option to try to make it back to base & land? And even that was taken away from you after the 1ST THEATRE!!!!

Devs. Want my money? Simple! I have paid for a great, very powerful, all singing, all dancing console machine here & pay far more for a console game to a PC equivelent. Just give me what the PC boys have got or somewhere close. All I want is the full game. I WANT IL-2 STURMOVIK!!!

Prob. no point in replying to this as I know from old, it's a waste of forum space, only used by the fanboys that copy & paste reactions like "stop crying" or "goodbye then" & for the latter it's prob. true as I'll take my whining posts away & let you continue to enjoy ur game in peace!!!

I agree that consoles seem to get a raw deal as far as DLC and Editing goes.

One game that was willing to get past this was Farcry2 - it had the same map editor on 360 as on PC, and it still seems to be played today.

I was surpised that we didn't get a mission editor similar to the IL-2:1946 experience. It -is- great fun being able to set up a quick dogfight, or bom,bing run, with a few mouse clicks. I don't know why this wasn't included. It would be very, very easy to do on a console. (Pick a map, choose number of enemies, choose objective type, choose number of friendlies, choose weather/daytime - randomly generate it - go play!)

Computers, after all, are masters of randomly generating stuff from blocks/tiles/databases... :)

I often (cynically I know) wonder if they limit the content deliberately so they reduce the lifespan of the game and make people buy their next game. IL-2 has survived (even after Ubi/maddox abandoned it) on player generated content/mission editors/etc. and that means nobody at Ubi/Maddox is making any money on it any more...

Like I said - people call me cynical - I see it as realism. :p

I like the XBox just fine for games but have moved on to the PC for one simple reason.
The XBox controller is not programmable. This makes the console effectively useless for anything more than playing the same game over and over unless you want to go through the hardship of learning all the controls again.
Look at IL2 compared to another flying game, Battlestations Pacific.
IL2 your joystick is the left thumb but in BSP it's your right
All the FPS games have similar commands but they're all programmed differently on the controller. It's just maddening.

Battlestations isn't a flight game, it's a strategy game that as a bonus also lets you take direct control. ;)

Do I feel ripped off? Not at all.
There's more involved in bring a console game out, part of which is better quality control than most pc games. Still bugs surely, but a much better experience than pc gaming. With pc gaming you spend a lot more on hardware that I have little use for other than gaming. With console gaming you spend less on hardware but more on games. But then there are used games and gamefly, so it's not like I pay $50-60 very often.

Keep in mind some of us game on both, it isn't necessary to be a "pc gamer" or "console gamer".

Not ripped off enough to read all that :shock:. Don't get a career at a newspaper.

Well said Raw, saved me quite a few keystrokes :)

BTW, we still down for strike tonight? [/threadjack]

I couldn't agree with the OP more. I've been a skeptic of this game since the demo came out on Xbox. I saw a lot of red flags early on that forced me to wait on purchasing BOP until I was certain it would deliver. Sadly it hasn't and I'm glad I never purchased it. Not sure how many of you played IL-2 1946 on PC but trust me when I tell you that IL-2 1946 is a better game. Please don't just think I'm merely trolling because I was really looking forward to BOP. And if you are enjoying BOP then it kind of makes me happy because for a lot of you this may be the closest thing some of you have gotten to a flight sim.

I understood early on that that console crowd forced the developers to really keep this game simple as far as sim potential is concerned. But, I wasn't ready for all of the simple things that they simply got wrong with BOP.

truth is, id prob never have played thios on the PC because i dont REALLY have an overly powerful PC. could there be a few more things done to this game to make it better, but i got a decent cheap flight stick and am really enjoying it so far, i think my biggest complaint is the lack of a community.

Well, as a European console gamer I'm used to feeling ripped off. :)

I've not given up on PC gaming. Constantly upgrading hardware has always been it's bane, but it's always been there and it's greatly offset by the benefits.

Dragon Rising is a good example of how it's not the PC gamer that has given up on PC gaming, but the Publishers (most of them anyway). The money is in fleecing the console crowd who have proven time and time again they will happily pay for MP maps that were free on the PC. Dragon Rising is a console port over to PC with all the technical limitations that consoles have. It doesn't even support dedicated servers on PC, the biggest reason to play a PC online over a console.

IL2, on the other hand, was made and crafted for PC first. BoP was specifically made later for consoles. Sure, everyone wishes BoP has all the little details that people love about PC gaming, but there's a limit to what they can achieve on consoles. And since, afaik, this is their first foray into making a console flight sim I'm willing to forgive some of the minor details such as cockpits on 109s etc. being available on launch.

Personally, I don't feel ripped off with BoP at all. The campaign was great fun, if a little short, but the single missions are a massive extension as well as the multiplayer. The problem is that if you've given up on PC gaming, but you want the same experience that a PC game entails you are pretty much screwed. I'm just glad their are companies like 1C and BIS which continue to make games for PC gamers and don't just fob off a console port onto us.

I don't have IL-2 for the PC, so maybe I don't know what I'm missing. But, I do know that BOP is a great game, and better than any other console flight game before. Sure there are things that everybody would like improved (A single-player mission editor would be awesome), so maybe in the sequel...

basically what i was saying, but he said it better. not alot of options in terms of flight games for us. so we dont know what we are missing.... all i want REALLY BAD is customizable controls for my saitek

I worked at a small underground newspaper for a while, here in LA. This was nothing compared to the amount some of us wrote.:cool::rolleyes:

The Militant?

No :P But this was a couple years back. The papers no longer around.

Well if you're not gonna be bothered to read the post, why bother to submit a reply??? If not for the vain attempt at a witty one-liner for the popularity vanity, lol!

For your oneliner to be replied to though; i will indeed take onboard your advice. I build Westland Helicopters & if that goes wrong I will steer away from the reporting industry!

Anyone else seeing a relation between the two? :P

I'd like to, I should be on. If there are no rooms going I'll crank one up. Having a lot of fun with this P-47.

Sounds good Raw.

Ok, I usually keep my mouth shut (as you can tell from my post count), but now I feel compelled to say something.

To the OP and Ace Rimmer, you guys had your intelligence insulted by this title; we get it, but please don’t characterize everyone on this board as “the console crowd”. I spend quite a lot of time flying Falcon 4.0AF on the PC, would you consider that a proper sim? It is quite possible to enjoy both. There are a lot of flight sim fans and enthusiasts of aviation in general around here. I’ve learned a lot of history from several knowledgeable posters on this board and enjoyed reading several lively discussions of the intricacies of military aviation past and present.

I’m not exactly sure what you two expected from BoP. I got exactly what I expected, a console game that takes flying a helluvalot more seriously than anything else that’s been available for me to play on my couch in front of my LCD TV after a long day (sometimes I just don’t feel like dragging out my HOTAS and sitting stiff in front of my PC for hours). The environments are beautiful, the planes look fantastic, and not since Over G has there been a console game with better, more diverse flight models. Additionally, there are only so many controls you can map to a controller/flight stick, so a great job by the Devs modeling all that they did IMHO.

Furthermore I’m not entirely sure what the OP’s reason was in posting this novel here, other than to come off as sort of elitist, too smart for a dumbed down PC port. Using the words “ripped off” in the post title wasn’t the best way to start. Perhaps “disappointed” would have been a better word. Just as it’s not nice for console players to be broad stroked as too attention deprived to grasp a proper flight sim, it’s not nice for PC simulation players to be colored as too intelligent and haughty to be bothered by something that is very enjoyable but just not quite as labor intensive as something on the PC. You managed to do both in one post, and honestly sir, it makes no difference where you work. Your employment doesn't determine who you are, and bears no relevance to the conversation, when you come in the kitchen rattling the pots and pans you're going to get a reaction. Then again that was your goal I assume.

Do I feel disappointed? Absolutely not! Love the game :)

Rant over, carry on. ;)

I agree with the OP but I knew the score before I bought my 360 so it's all good. I don't feel let down with BOP though, in fact it's a lot better than I was expecting it to be. Sure it's nowhere near as good as IL2 on the PC but it's still very good none the less. I still prefer gaming on the PC over the console though despite being confined to a 19" monitor :) I only bought my 360 so I could play online with my real world friends who aren't into PC gaming. The kids love it too :P

Personally i don't feel ripped of at all as a console gamer, i still remember when IL2 Sturmovik was released back in 2001 with only 30 flyable planes.
Since then a lot of flightsim entusiasts bought (myself included) :
- IL2 Sturmovik (Full Game)
- IL2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles (Full Game)
- IL2 Sturmovik Aces Expansion Pack (Expansion)
- IL2 Sturmovik Pacific Fighter (Full Game)

These where the foundations that allowed you to buy IL2 1946 a couple of years later for only £25. It's a bit unfair to compare both games at this stage.

To Phlux:

Unlike the other guy in the thread, you actually had bothered to atleast read the post & so you have my respect, along with my apologies if i appeared 'eletist' or over intillegent to a 'dumb down console crowd'. I meant to appear as neither & on the contrary, I have huge respect for the console owners like myself that will undoubtedly be "disappointed" once again.

We have great machines, very powerful, keyboard ready & flightstick compatible units with tons of memory & acres of HDD space; it's not far removed from a pc yet the games (not the players) are dumbed down at sometimes nearly twice the cost. True; I expected IL-2 because I bothered to read everything about this game from its conception.

As for my job, I was merely responding to a sarcastic comment made by Mr Big himself.

You need to keep in mind that Birds of Prey isn't just a port of IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946, it's an entirely new game. It tries to appeal to the majority of console gamers who don't want to bother with a simulator and just want to shoot stuff (generalization). I will admit they could have put in a mission editor, but I'm still having a great time playing it even without one.

BoP is lacking in many aspects compared to IL-2 1946, but it has made great improvements over other console combat flight games.

So, there's more involved in releasing one third of a combat flight sim game on a console to, say, ARMAII?

So basically, we're enjoying better visuals but going vastly backwards as content goes.

Better Quality Control??? BOP???? Umm, very confused as this surely has to be one of the top 3 biggest bugbears of the title, unless ofcourse you refer to the console as a whole in which case I would agree!!!

Fair enough.

However sir, I must say that since the game has been out (in some places) for a month now, anyone left posting on this forum would obviously be enjoying it despite it's few shortcomings. I'm certain you knew the reaction you'd get, and the first few sentences of your opening post confirm it. I'm just curious as to your motivation for starting this discussion.

Did I not make that clear? Garbage DLC over fixes & the off-topic release of OFP: Dragon Rising, which will disappoint thousands more console owners that deserve to enjoy what their PC brethren receive.

Respect for the great sig btw!!!!

As far as the DLC is concerned, it's sort of silly to have people flying pre-order content planes and have nobody else be able to fly them at all. Now, yes they did make more single missions, but other than that the content was already there. Fixes are on the way anyways.

Your opinion is crystal clear; your reasoning for posting it on a forum full of people who are enjoying what they bought is what's rather confusing to me. I have a hard time believing that your intentions were to champion the cause of the beleaguered console gamer, but nonetheless enjoy the remainder of the responses you get.

I can't take credit for the signature (read the fine print), but thank you anyway.

Hmm. A very suspicious & cynical mind you appear to have Mr Phlux as I wish neither to be a champion to anyone or to wallow in satisfaction at stirring up a hornets nest. I am merely a punter that's sick to death of being penalized for having a console. Admittedly, I am a lover of combat sims & yes; Falcon 4.0 was a little gem & then some. Ppl are no doubt getting enjoyment from this stuff & hey that's good. I was prepared to stay in the sunset on this but the fact I have pre-ordered another dud on PS3 (OFP:DR) & having read this Anton guys' reasoning for the chargeable DLC (it was already part of the title), I felt like expressing my opinion & asking others if they felt as I did.
I strangely feel as I'm having to justify my actions to you, in a forum of open debate & healthy discussion.
Pointless either way. You will go on & enjoy this game for what it is, good for you; I will not, I'm the loser I guess for buying it (twice) in the 1st place.

Yes I read the small print but still thought it worthy of praise.

Hey Houndstone, you raise two issues:

1) content in original game

The important thing to keep in mind here is that the devs want to take this game beyond the PC crowd that have migrated to console, but still keep the simmers happy (which I'm _very_ happy about :D)). If they go in too hardcore in their first outing, it's likely to come up in reviews, which will turn off buyers. If this is successful (and the signs are looking pretty good so far), then it's laying the groundwork for sim-style flyers on console - but the groundwork has to be laid down first. Driving games didn't start with GT5 and the driving force pro, they started with very basic wheels and much simpler handling models. Similarly, console flight games will need to do the same, or it'll be too much for flyers who haven't got a PC background. I personaly think they've done
a masterful job of balancing the arcade and the sim crowd, and hope that IL-2 as a console franchise goes from strength to strength, encouraging other more simmy games on our black/grey boxes :D.

2) value for DLC.


The content in the original game was _brilliant_ value - 70+ missions, often quite involved, 30+ planes (they don't get the full 40 from me, as some are plain impractical to unlock)), multiplayer and painted pictures of all the pilots :)). So it's not as if anyone was ripped off here. If you don't like it, buy any other console flight game in the last decade and you'll see that you're not getting a rough run. The DLC itself is a further two planes and six missions, all with the new plane (really looking forward to getting my teeth into the P-47 - on PS3, so haven't seen these yet) - the asking price for this is also very reasonable. Both took work, and I think it's only fair the devs get paid for the work they do ;). It's not as if we're spending $5 for anime skins for our planes ;).

ArmA2? I guess there is more involved since they have yet to find a publisher that thinks they can pull it off.
At least ArmA2 doesn't suffer from any bugs though, like you pointed out.


The patch 1.03 will solve and improve/balance the following in-game issues:
Major

• AI tweaking and balancing (especially AI infantry aural detection sensitivity lowered significantly)
• Improved multiplayer and cooperative campaign (saving games, connection issues)
• Numerous fixes and improvements in the Harvest Red campaign

Engine:

• New: Functions getPosATL and setPosATL to allow controlling position relative to terrain.
• New: command line option -showScriptErrors introduced to show errors in scripts on-screen
• New: Direct analogue throttle and brake for airplanes now available.
• New: More flexible configuration of Flares in the config (brightness, size)
• New: Mission name (with * indicated unsaved work) displayed in the mission editor
• New: Keyboard shortcuts in the mission editor
• Improved: Better airplane HUD visibility both night and day
• Optimization: Reduced frame stutter near map borders.
• Fixed: Rainbow could be visible even with sun below horizon.
• Fixed: 3D Editor - civilian and resistance units did not work correctly
• Fixed: Sea surface was not rendered in NE area out of map.
• Fixed: Terrain surface was sometimes using wrong parallax map.
• Fixed: Grenade could sometimes destroy a building just by impact
• Fixed: Radio messages sometimes echoed
• Fixed: Team switch did not work when player died
• Fixed: Reduced AI detecting slowly moving enemy vehicles by ear.
• Fixed: Prevent killed AI units reporting who killed them.
• Fixed: After respawn in MP, player's tasks, diary content and skills are transferred to the new entity
• Fixed: Leaning 'limits' did not work with TrackIR
• Fixed: MP client frozen in Receiving... screen sometimes
• Fixed: Problems with saving and loading games in cooperative campaign

Missions:

• Fixes and improvements in most of the campaign missions (Into the Storm, Harvest Red, Bitter Chill, Manhattan, Badlands, Dogs of War)
• Improved: autosave logic to not save when it was not safe
• Improved: Eye for an Eye in Scenarios

Data:

• Fixed: various minor problems on buildings
• Fixed: rocks destruction effect changed
• Fixed: penetrability of some vegetation
• Fixed: collision geometry of A_BuildingWIP
• Fixed: react FSM core conversations
• Fixed: cargo animations in LAV25
• Fixed: indicators in Ka52 when using NVG
• Fixed: cargo animations in BTR
• Fixed: Warfare keypoint on Chernarus

The patch 1.04 will mainly solve and improve/balance the following in-game issues:
Major

• Mouse controls: Improved mouse handling and responsivness
• Stability: Fixed CTD caused by Voice Over Net when many players were speaking simultaneously and other stability problems
• Sound: Fixed speed of sound simulation and other improvements
• Multiplayer: fixed scoring, multiple mission parameters added and various other MP-related improvements

Engine:

• New: Added mouse smoothing to game options.
• New: Enabled multiple parameters for MP missions.
• New: Mouse filtering strenght adjustable using mouseSmoothing=NNNN in user config.
• New: Command line argument -cpuCount=NNN to override cpu count detection.
• Improved: Mouse smoothing disabled for fast movement.
• Improved: Mouse smoothing can be disabled in user profile file using line mouseSmoothing=0;
• Improved: Audio volume settings.
• Fixed: Soldier were walking on non-existant heaps of debris from destroyed buildings.
• Fixed: Autocoordination caused rudder oscillation in high speed flight.
• Fixed: Crashes in VoN when many players were speaking simultaneously.
• Fixed: Immortal freezed soldiers occured in MP.
• Fixed: Broken kill scoring in MP (two points for unit kill).
• Fixed: Input key actions are no longer active while chat mode.
• Fixed: Diag_log used with long text argument caused crash.
• Fixed: Mouse scrolling in diary.
• Fixed: Enemy kills made by player using stolen enemy vehicle are no longer considered as friendly kills.
• Fixed: Switching to Utes from Chernarus caused Utes to contain infinite landscape.
• Fixed: Time of day synchronized on client after connection to server.
• Fixed: Speed of sound simulation.
• Fixed: Fire from rifle distort sound.
• Fixed: Crash by malformed input to a diag_log scripting function.
• Fixed: Dark muzzle flash in some of the weapon optics.
• Fixed: MP: Ships and boats used excessive bandwidth and CPU power.
• Fixed: Players are no longer forced to reconnect after MP Load on server.
• Fixed: Bike rider can be no longer healed.
• Fixed: Sometimes crew of a near vehicle was visible through the vehicle.

Missions:

• Improved: Communication menu updated to work with the new menu systems.
• Fixed: Some persistent RE calls added for better JIP compatibility in campaign.
• Fixed: Music was sometimes not playing properly due to faulty playMusic RE command call.
• Fixed: Scene area cleared from exploding destroyed vehicles during various scenes.
• Fixed: Possible appearance of immortal non-player characters in campaign.
• Fixed: (First to Fight) MP: Logos shown on client every time after JIP.
• Fixed: (First to Fight) MP: Skeet shooting not working for clients after JIP.
• Fixed: (First to Fight) Players not boarded in the chopper if they got in the towing tractor.
• Fixed: (Into the Storm) MP: Bad position of client players during converation.
• Fixed: (Into the Storm) Some voice-subtitles difference in the first dialog.
• Fixed: (Into the Storm) MP: No callsign for HQ entity on clients.
• Fixed: (One Week Later) MP: Clients not sitting on bikes after leaving the AAV.
• Fixed: (One Week Later) MP: Player is no longer the co-pilot in the Osprey.
• Fixed: (Manhattan) Escort chopper often shot down.
• Fixed: (Manhattan) Palyer stuck in the animation after first scene.
• Fixed: (Badlands) Prizrak no longer initiates conversation if Cooper is in a vehicle.
• Fixed: (Badlands) Non-fucntional ending in campaign scenario.
• Fixed: (Missing in Action) Redundant random sentences from Razor.

Modules:

• Improved: Ambient Civilians module caused lag in MP due to window lights.
• Fixed: Undefined variables in Ambient Civilians module.
• Fixed: High Command could behave strange when someone added his own display event handler.
• Fixed: Wrong positions of objects/logics.
• Fixed: Performance problems related to Animals module in MP.

Data:

• Improved: Some of the vehicle HUDs now contain missing info.
• Fixed: Alignment issues on several wrapper UI screens.

Enjoy!

Couldn't agree less I'm afraid with both points. A mere sprinkling of cockpits, a sim mode that is broken in my opinion beyond repair, awful control issues that are screaming "fix me", no replayabilty what so ever, no customization thru any gameplay mode, how is this to attract anyone with the love of a good combat simulation; & that my friend is where it's roots lie; IL-2 Sturmovik was, & is, the grandaddy of that genre.
So to bring such a class act to a console, the game has to be stripped of interest, glossed in pretty paint & sold at double the price?

The DLC supplied, at any price, is a cheek & a blatant disregard to fans of the game, wanting immersion & fixes. So the P-47 finally shows up with its own cockpit; no wait hang on, isn't that a P-51 cockpit? no ofcourse not. What does the other planes' 'office' look like? Is the map new? Is it another part of Bastogne that we haven't seen? IT WAS ALL PART OF THE ORIGINAL GAME!!!!
OK; lessons learned from Over G Fighters. That game did nothing wrong, had great control mapping, had fantastic model physics & flight characteristics, was hellishly immersive, had everything BoP lacks, but no one dug it & so it died. BoP has looks & very little else but lives & how much money do we have to shell out each time before everyone is satisfied when the original back in 2001 did it bang on 1st time.
Oleg wanted nothing to do with this title & I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Two copies, 2 control sticks & many hours down the line I can see why .... IMO!!!

HMMM!!! You completely misread me but no matter, my mistake. I was referring to BoP on PS3/360 to ARMA2 on PC as I have only just realised through your sarcasm that they are planning on releasing it for console!!!


Re: Houndstone Hawk ....."So, there's more involved in releasing one third of a combat flight sim game on a console to, say, ARMAII?

So basically, we're enjoying better visuals but going vastly backwards as content goes."


And when in my post (copied above) did I point out or even hint on ARMA2 having or not having bugs!!! Surely most folk would read into that as technically comparing 2 titles from different platforms. It's a cheap trick indeed, throwing words into ppl's mouth RK & then backing it up with a page of copied material of no relevence to the subject that only serves to make you look a bit ....well, foolish really ;-) !!!

I knew I wasn't the only who thought a straight port of IL2 1946 with some graphical enhancements would sell TONS more and have a much longer lifespan.

A straight port would have EVERYTHING this game has now. It would have arcade - for the noobs, you can turn stalls off. It would have simulator settings for people who prefer realistic flying and gunnery. A hardcore-lock-your-butt-in-the-cockpit for the serious players. Everything was an option on the PC version.

Yea, the game is still fun, but it hasn't gotten me to stop playing the PC version - depsite the better visuals.

Consoles need to mature as their demographic matures. I think the console players that are buying BOP can handle some extra options/sophistication.

amen!!!!

I'll just go in the order you listed those items:

-I wouldn't call it a 'sprinkling of cockpits'. With the exception of bombers, all allied aircraft have modeled cockpits and I'm sure German cockpits are on the way.

-I don't see how sim mode is 'broken beyond repair'... Enlighten me please?

-Control issues I can't argue with; although I have no problem with the current controls I think it's stupid to not include other control options

-No replayability what so ever? As far as I'm concerned, training mode (really simplified mission builder) and online provide plenty of replayability. Saying there isn't any at all is pure rubbish.

-What do you even mean by 'customization'? Customization of what?

Sim Mode broken beyond repair details the very problem with controls and I do believe it will not be fixed; perhaps the mapping of buttons can do a little but the issues with such a gargantuan dead zone problem in my opinion, will not be touched upon or rectified. How anyone is supposed to exercise any form of skill or flair with such a hampered control discrepancey is beyond me.

Customisation? The ability to customise anything; you name it, other than time, place & weather for a little you against the same enemy & the ability to stick on a missile or 2. Customization, the simple abilities to t/o, land, fly to a designation, even the simple customization to t/o into an enjoyable free flight, being able to choose multiple wingmen, to fight in a training scenario with a little mix & variety, change a livery or two, to name but a few simple ones.

Re: Cockpits to allied aircraft; do you not regard the PO-2 as being an allied non-bomber aircraft for starters. Do you also regard the P-51 as having its own cockpit?

I also agree that :
- A complete 1946 port would make BoP a much more complete game even if it didn't had any graphic enhancements
- Console players can handle as much options/sophistication as PC players

However :
- Its not easy to port existing software to a new plaform unless you started development with mutiple platforms in mind
- There is no XBOX support for PC flightsticks / Track IR and only MS can change that

I wish that BOB SOW was released for the XBOX 360 , we would get the next generation combat flightsim without the need for additional PC upgrades.

I completely agree with your analysis, unfortunally for those like us who come from Pc version of the game this isn't a must have.
Anyway Is fun, and when I can I enjoy on hour of flight on console.
I expected more from this BOP but the game is this, so enjoy it and have fun.

I don't know how the development of the game was worked out, but they didn't put in extra customization options for some reason. If it was out of laziness or perhaps they saw no need to include it in the game, then I will complain about it.

The P-51 does have a cockpit, it's just the wrong one ;). I won't deny that BoP has plenty of faults, (like the Po-2 you mentioned, which I had completely forgot about) but to sum up my views:

I do feel ripped off as a console gamer, but with BoP ( and other games) I can enjoy stunning graphics and fun gameplay with the portability of a console.

If you feel ripped off, why not add up the cost of a gaming PC and peripherals, take away the cost of your console and peripherals then divide the difference by the average cost of a new console game? How many games does that get you before you actually are being ripped off?

Given that BoP is the first console outing for the series means a lot of the development time is spent getting the core engine off the ground. Development costs a lot of money, and "feature creep" can prove very expensive, if not fatal, to development houses/publishers if not kept in check. You can keep adding features until the cows come home, but if you don't get your product out there earning you are just burning money.

If you want to make a fair comparison, at least compare BoP to the very first IL2 game, not one that has undergone several iterations of refinement.

But games do get dumbed down for the console market, undoubtedly. Either accept that or go back to PC gaming. It's that simple really.

I personally prefer console gaming because I can sit more comfortably in the lounge with a bigger screen, not spend hours trying to configure the game or hardware to actually run the thing and not worry about being bettered online by someone with superior hardware or hacks.

Even the very first IL2 game on the PC blows BOP away as it's a far better game in every respect apart from it's graphics.

im a harcore gamer on the 360 who happens to work 5 days a weeks and still gets a shit wage at the end of the month. I have bills to pay and other outgoings....

the 360 just adds to that! i do feel robbed at times yes. But who's the bigger mug?

them for charging that much etc, or me for paying for it?

I've just read the first few posts on this thread and have a question:

I've only received this game through the post today so don't know much about it. Is the original post saying that there is no way of taking off on a runway in this game then? Each mission starts mid-air?

I'm pretty sure you can land though right? I thought I saw a video of this the other day?

I bought the Xbox360 as I had heard that IL2 was to be launched for the consoles and, just as you have stated, fed up with the constant upgrades needed for PC based SIM titles. IL2 BOP for Consoles is a step in the right direction but I have to symapthise with the developers in the decisions that they have had to make in getting a product suitable for a market dominated by Arcade players and Plastic Guitar hero's. BOP is half way between being a SIm and an Arcade game. If you are serious about SIMs for consoles then buy the product and leave the feedback to improve the next release. MS and Sony also have to do their part and allow developers to fully exploit the potential of their Consoles. Low market share = no product update/improvements..........

Other than the few missions in the 1st Campaign (BoB) whereby you are given the option to fly back & land, the entire game including the half-hearted training mode, the entire rest of the games' campaign, & about 7/8th's of the training missions will have you start & finish in the air.

Take Off? I think that pops up once or twice thru all modes.

"What about Capture the Airfield online"?

Online is a lonely, lonely place to be as you will find out. Unless you're prepared to turn this experience into a pure arcade fest aka Blazing Angels & play online in arcade mode, you will hardly stand a chance of playing a decent online experience & sadly; the online is terribly flawed at this time.

When I mean IL-2 STURMOVIK for the PC, I am quite obviously referring to IL-2 STURMOVIK on the PC. I may have mentioned 1946 once within that post but my references are based upon the original 2001 release. I believe my quote (below) re: 1946 was merely describing it as the complete series all rolled into one & in no way was a direct comparison being made being BoP & 1946 alone.


"IL-2 1946 that came out only a few years ago was the complete series in one ..."


Other than your attempt at 'word twist', I also believe you make a very weak 1st point. Can (or could) you not run a PC combat sim as simple as IL-2 without Perepherals or a top-end graphics card? Hell yes. I did for ages!!! Sure it helps; but it also helps if you spend over 100 quid on a large 360 hard drive (that does nothing more than a bog-standard PC drive for about 20 - 30 quid), mouth watering console flight sticks etc.

I don't really understand your point in this paragraph. Are you saying you can play IL2 on a rubbish PC? And your talk of hard drives is lost on me - I'm on PS3 so don't know how a hard drive affects 360 performance.

My first point, weak as it may be, still stands - can you play the game, to equal graphical quality, on a PC for the same price as you can on a PS3 or XBox 360?

Maybe you have forgotten how you opened this thread...My second point is also valid. It is well known that this is the first console outing for this franchise. That requires new engine technology. Although their proprietary engine already works for PC and 360, they still need to build a PS3 engine from the ground up. Whether you're aware or not, it is not an easy machine to work with, and I think the quality of their product shows they've done an incredible job. Especially if you look at the size of the team in the credits and compare it to the ridiculously bloated teams you see on other projects. Very few publishers want to fund years and years of development before a project starts making a return. Hunt around for the information and you will see that the sequel to this game is the point where they can start adding all the nice things like replays and what have you.

And it's pretty derrogatory towards the developers to label it as a "simple" game. Bejeweled is simple. Any form of 3D engine is very far from simple. And getting anything to run on a broad range of PC hardware is also very far from simple.

I fail to see what you're hoping to achieve with this thread. We all know PC and console gaming are not the same thing. We all know there are a different category of games released to each market, although there is some overlap. To my mind, console gaming is a half-way house between coin-op arcades and PC games. The sooner people realise, maybe the less whining about how it's not the same as the PC versions we'll have to put up with, because quite frankly I'm sick to death of hearing about how BoP is not up to the IL2 standard. It is my first experience with the franchise and a very pleasing one.

Wow... Incredible...

Apples and Trash Bags... BOP wasn't meant to be IL2 1946 for the console. This is a game that is meant to appeal to a wider audience and I think it succeeded in doing just that.

You really can't compare the two titles. One title is nearly 9 years old with several addons which includes new planes new maps new objects for a platform that is much much more flexible.

Remember game developers PAY to build games for the consoles and they have to meet certain expectations set by the publisher and folks like MS Sony etc.

These titles had different goals.

Buyer Beware

Ah right, so BoP was never meant to try & mimmick a fantasic experience as 2001's IL-2 STURMOVIK! I get it now! The name kinda suggests to me that it's going to be a slight representation of the series ... IL-2 STURMOVIK: BIRDS OF PREY. (Bit of a hint in the title

Hey I'm all for the arcade mode to attract different ppl, I was led into thinking that I was to be catered for also!!!

I bought this title on multi platforms because I was told by the devs in its build up that I, the so-called PC SIM hardcore would be more than at home & that it was a faithful console experience worthy of the series so if you're sick of the whining Inf States, stop reading this thread!!!!
It's an Il-2 with most of the cockpits missing, a belly achingly laughable bomber experience straight out of Blazing Angels; it's an IL-2 where t/o & landing is seen as UNIMPORTANT, where a simple skirmish modes omit next to any form of diversity, a game that fails on every level other than looks IMO.
And back to the point of the post & just like OFP: Dragon Rising released this week, if there was a PC version of BoP, you wouldn't atall bet against it having most of the above criteria.
The point of the post, OFP:Dragon Rising ships to all 3 major platforms & unlike the last gen offering, guess what? the console version is stripped of any form of replayability & is blessed with a price ticket more than double the price in places!!!

OK, we get it, you're pissed at the games publishing world. As you might've noticed complaining like this only leads to unnecessary discussions and an overall negative vibe. You want to vent your anger, mail to the publishers of OFP: DR.

Well, even you have to admit even arcade mode on BoP is ten times better than Blazing Angels... (you don't see people flying into cliffs and bouncing back off alive in BoP do you?)

No you weren't, you were told by the publisher's marketing department, and you are exactly the person they dream of - someone who blindly buys the product based on what they tell you. It's not like there wasn't a demo to try before you spent money on it. And the full game delivers exactly what the demo promised.

So it's your own fault at the end of the day, and you really don't have a valid basis to complain.

And I wasn't referring to this thread specifically.

They just leveraged off of a title that is clearly one of the best if not the Best WWII sims of all time.


And what gave you that idea? The boomarang controller and the lack of TIR support? Come on you had to have known that if it was headed for a console it wasn't going to be the same experience.

Let me ask you this... Can you name a better Console based WWII Combat Flight Sim?

Well I guess that call comes down to your opinion of the game. I think it does the console justice and it gives new folks to the genre what could be had in the PC world. It is what it is...

Well the game designers probably took all those things into account when it was conceived. The premise was most likey a compromise. Do you know how long it took to create IL2? Several years in the making.

The world of games has changed. With newer platforms like the Xbox 360 and the PS3 publishers and developers are in a rush to get new products out especially right now. That is a fact. It's sad but if you think about it most console games aren't meant to last. They don't develope game engines and products like IL2. IL2 1946 is almost 9 year old game. Game developers want you to get your 40-70 hours worth of play and move on to the next title (more revenue)

Console games aren't meant to have extensive replayability. That's why you don't see a heck of a lot of combat flight sims anymore.

Oleg hit the nail on the head. Build something long term then release new addons for the PC market. Rince and repeat. For consoles its about getting you to buy IL2 BOP version 2.

Welcome to the new world of gaming

Best thing about this thread is it concerns itself with whether console gamers feel ripped off but nobody seems to want to mention the 360 DLC "download" clocking in at only 140kb ... which indicates an unlock code for content that's already on the disc.

Why is everybody being so coy about mentioning the holding back of game content so the publisher can charge for it later? It's the biggest rip off on the 360 no matter what company is doing it.

What else is on the disc that people will have to pony up for I wonder?

And when publishers complain about modded consoles and pirated games that have all content cracked and open for use I really don't feel any sympathy when I see mercenary shit like this going down.

You get what you pay for... If the numbers are there that support this type of behavior then the best bet is not to buy anymore games...

Because that is covered in other threads. And it's on the disk because it was rewarded early to people who pre-ordered.

And it's exactly this attitude that forces publishers to charge more for games and devise this "mercenary shit". Games are not cheap to make, and pirates do to the games industry what the a-holes that drive around without car insurance do to your car insurance premium.

While some console gamers can handle much more the sad fact is most do not or will not. I realize this back in PS when games like Vagrant Story failed. Even BOP has been criticized by one reviewer for being too close to the PC sim.
In the past most straight PC ports did awful in sales. This is why Firaxis tried to make a "civ-lite" (CivRev) for the consoles this time instead of a straight port of the Civ 4. Civ and civ2 sales were very poor on the console in the past.
One exception seems to be sports. One reason for this is sports games usually come out every year thus slowly add in options at first you only found of the PC.
Not only do most console gamers want the console be "hassle free" compared to PC they also prefer game to be hassle free as well. It's seem obvious to me since it's a lot easier to find a arcade match than a sim one online with BOP.

CivRev is awesome, but unfortunately buggy as hell. Otherwise I'd still be playing it today.

amen to that...
________
BEST PENNY STOCKS

FYI: Only parts of Europe recieved content as a pre-order bonus.

Unlike code, art assets are hard to conditionally add to a build on a build switch (#define), so I wouldn't be surprised if the actual disk contents were the same for all regions, with just the code modified via localisation switches to access different assets. I wonder if all the European language files are on every region's disks also?

There was a post about a German guy buying the UK version, and found his BoP was completely german until he switched his PS3 language to english.

Personnally I bought my game through Ebay in the UK to pay 20% less thanks to their currency.

And I had the surprised to have the game In French (Which is terrible due to the false English/ Soviet accent of the actors lol)

So I guess European games do have all european languages on the disk

With all due respect, you're missing my point :)

I already know that all EU languages are on the EU version's disk. What I meant was, I wonder if all EU languages are on a US version's disk. You probably won't be able to test it though, because a US build of the code will disregard the bit in an EU build that reads the system language and loads the appropriate files accordingly.

I don't think I made that any clearer lol. Oh well...

Suffice to say, I'm not surprised the DLC content is on every disk despite it only being an unlock in the EU.

That's a good way to put it.
However, the pirating is 99% on pc games, which are cheap and console players pay the premium price (in general). It's more like people without car insurance cause the stable individuals with homeowners insurance to pay more. :-P

£7.99 on UK PS3? for 6 missions that players could've happily thrown together with great joy & satisfaction, if the trademark mission editor was present? and for 1 and a half airplanes? (being that only 1 plane having a cockpit & even that one's in the 'game' already as a big glaring mistake). And to fly said planes on said missions with the same broken 'game'?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I'll have the laugh for you shall I?

PERSPECTIVE: £7.49 online buys you IL-2 1946, the complete PC IL-2 experience!!!!!

Here must surely endeth this thread as I ask again ........ "Don't you feel ripped off as a console Gamer"?

Dude, seriously. Go send an email to the publishers or whatnot. This forum is visited by the developers. They have practically nothing to do with the price. They try to help us best they can, took into account our feedback for the update, don't go bitching to them about something they can't control. It's disgusting.

how the *** is that giving perspective :confused:. Did you go 'what the heck, 65 bucks for COD5?? --> perspective: COD1 is 5 bucks online!'.

How can you compare anything to the price of a 10 year old game... srsly

Besides that post making you look like a jerk (and as was said, the developers have almost nothing to do with DLC price), it'll only be the PC IL-2 experience. Not the console experience, the PC one. Birds of Prey is the complete IL-2 console experience, and it's way better than other console flight sims.


This thread is becoming even more pointless than it was before.

EDIT: If you look at the prices for Rise of Flight planes (around $5 or $6USD per plane for planes that were already modeled before the game was released) , the price for BoP DLC will seem cheap to you.

Hey good call. I obviously must be some kind of a jerk to have not only bought this title for 2 platforms, but to have been passionate enough to give a sh*t about the way in which the console developer is dumbing down & destroying immersive gameplay for a higher price tag.

If I sound like a jerk in order to get my opinion across then fair game but the thread has seen some support to my views & therefore, IMO, wasn't a total waste of time.

EDIT:

Re: RISE of FLIGHT planes. Yes agreed. I made that very point earlier on; on another thread; but just compare the 2. RoF aircraft are truly beautiful creations with fully working cockpits throughout (even down to the radiator cowling flaps & engine mixture & prop pitch levers), that are more akin to an aircraft addon for FSX (and they, as you know can retail at around £20-£30 or more). The liveries are numerous as are the loadouts.
Compare that to the one & a half Bop aircraft that you have just downloaded!!!

I'm not supporting RoF & their antics because, as is the case with this title, the content was there in the 1st place, locked to the user unless they flash the card, again & again!!!

Enjoy!!!

Would everyone just leave this poor man alone? He's bought two copies (!), but you probably knew that because for some reason he says it in every other post. He's also very passionate about the game, although he shows it like Ted Bundy showed his passion for young women. He's a great fan of the IL-2 series and supports almost anything that will come from it, although 8 pounds is obviously too much.
Please let this man be, and let us hope he will do what he claimed in his first post in this topic: take his whining posts away & let us continue to enjoy our game in peace.

P.S. If anyone is wondering: this post does not require a reply.

That's what made you look like a jerk. I never actually said 'you are a jerk' though, I was merely pointing out how that post was rude, and didn't help you gain support for your views.

Now, have you downloaded the content? It would be unwise to make claims about it if you haven't even downloaded it. That applies for everyone including me.

I have nothing more to say in this topic. It's just another one of those 'I give you my views and you argue and give you views and repeat' threads, I've seen them before on many forums and websites, and one side of the argument will never convince the other side to change views.

I, for one, having been condoning the price of the DLC, namely because $5 is not a lot and I condone supporting a great title.

But finally it appeared last night (at midnight...wtf SCEE?) and I was expecting it to come in around the same price tag (£3.50 or so). But no, it's on at the monstrous price of £8. Now I just ran that through a currency converter, and despite the crappy GBP at the moment, that still converts to $12.75. I nearly didn't buy it, but I still want to support the game, so I did. Despite already having unlocked the TA152, and it having no extra trophies.

That is outrageous IMO. It's not even like they had to load it onto a ship and sail it across the Atlantic.

But I still don't feel ripped off as a console owner. I do, however, feel ripped off as an Englishman relative to America.

How the f*ck do the publishers justify this?


EDIT: P.S. LOL @ AncientSeraph's last post :)

If its any consolation, it still costed more for American PS3 owners than it did for Xbox owners from what I've been hearing. I only ever heard that it was $5 or its equivalent on the Xbox, but when I go onto the PSN, its $9.99. Seemed a bit pricey, but hey, I really want to try and support this game, and $10 isn't too much to ask.

Been having great fun with the Jug though. That thing is good at making things explode ^^ Or tear to pieces if you hit them with the fifty cals.

Can't say that I've been particularly happy with how the publishers have handled this game's release, but it has been a lot of fun, and I definately don't regret buying it. I haven't played a good air combat game in ages, and its nice to get back into the genre after so long. Especially with HAWKS sucking (well, I wasn't fond of it anyway), and the Ace Combat series jumping ship to the Xbox (Hey, it was fun for how over the top it got at times. Who doesnt enjoy fighting a giant, UAV spewing doom-ship....thing. lol).

Its especially nice to get back to WWII era air combat. Its just so much more satisfying to rip your enemy to shreds with machineguns and cannons. Pushing a button to launch a sidewinder just isn't as fun. Rockets are always fun too, and it always puts a smile on my face when I see a big, slow bomber explode when you peg them with one. ILs too. Lets see your fancy, bullet-absorbing armor take a rocket hit. lol

Find but ONE example where I refer to or regard BoP as being in the 'IL-2' Series. Like I say in my Ted Bundy way, and have ALWAYS MAINTAINED; it's worlds apart. I bought two copies (hey guys he said it again) because the marketing strategy led me into thinking it was indeed a title worthy of the name. Please get that through your unfunny, fanboy mind and it would be so wise to cut the word twisting for a cheap laugh.

Hey dude, laugh & mock me with sarcasm at my expense; Hell you can even refer to me as a mass murderer of women as your hilarious quote implies, if that's what gets you off & gets you the laughs & respect you require. Do whatever I don't mind but .... DON'T TWIST MY WORDS!!!!

Perhaps this post does not require a reply because of your false belief in your 'larger than life', 'funnier than thou' rhoutine.

8 quid for 2 planes and a few "missions". Er, No thanks.

Even if the game was fixed (which it isn't), or we had a patch date (which we don't) and the planes were new (not just a lazy unlock) I doubt this would be worth more than 4 quid.

It ranks alongside the Little Big Planet costumes as the biggest ripoff on PSN.

Don't forget about the Soul Caliber IV "exclusive characters" or the Resident Evil 5 multiplayer. OH! and the Street Fighter IV and Blazblue alternate costumes and colors. ...lots of DLC rip-offs, come to think of it.

I definately felt this DLC was over-priced, but I still got it because I've always liked the P-47 (and thankfully, its a joy to fly), and I want to support this game. I really don't want this to be its only entry on the consoles, I have certainly played the hell out of it, my friends too.

I really hope that patch comes out soon though. I want my Mustang to actually fly properly. Hopefully the sequel will be more polished as well. Still, for a first attempt on a console, and an air combat game on the console, BoP has been a lot of fun.

I can definately agree with your (and probably a lot of others) sentiments about the DLC, and had this game not already have been priced cheaper than other new games, and not been so fun, I would not have gotten it either.