Originally Posted by butterfield (Post 87761)

This is a really good post in defense of IL2 for the console.. but I also understand where sod16 is coming and would like to state this in his defense:

I've played IL2 on the PC for a good 5 years now. When I first heard it was being handed over to a third party for release on the 360/ps3 I was very skeptical. I thought, "How can this even be possible given a controller with buttons I can count on 2 hands? ...and would console users even want to get into the level of depth known as IL2?"

Then the trailers started appearing on the net and I was instantly in love. I thought "WOW.... this is IL2 1946 with a bad@ss graphical overhaul!!!... I watched the trailers over and over and over.....

Demo day arrives and I felt like a 10 year old on Christmas! I went into the demo knowing things like the engine "management" would be non existant. There would be no prop pitch/air fuel mixture/or in flight supercharger adjustments. There would be no manifold pressure or engine damage due too overheating ...and you know what? I was just perfectly fine with that. After all this is a game console not a flight trainer. I knew that the real bread and butter of the IL2 experience boiled down to 3 areas:
the dogfighting, knowing the strengths and weakness of each plane in a combat situation, and lastly .....the awesome damage model Oleg implemented almost 10 years ago.

Sadly area #3 is horribly diluted. :( Part of what made IL2 such a good experience was the unknown. Entering combat was the enemy flak going to destroy a flap? was a bf-109 cannon shell going to blow off my rudder? Would a round unluckily pierce a fuel tank causing me to crash land over enemy territory. If I ditched was my landing gear going to extend or was it going to be a belly landing? Well heck if I have to belly land I better find some flat ground or it's all over!!! You see this is whats sadly missing from BOP. So much fun was too be had just trying to ditch a plane and surviving.

Now you just get instant "hollywood" explosions when your wingtip rubs the grass.

I know Anton stated that this is a flight sim not a crash simulator.... but why remove the crash aspect and dumb down the damage engine when it was already there too begin with???,,,it doesn't hurt the playability of the game on the console or confuse the masses that play console games...it only completes the awesomeness that is IL2 ,,,and I surely know that the 360/ps3 can handle ALL of this if my old P3 700mhz did 5 years ago.

Maybe it was "we ran out of time" problem with the publisher.... I don't know but it is sorely missed.

Plus If the damage is restored to its original PC state and a replay editor is included we can have BOP videos like this :grin: --->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU7nDZmu4YQ

Originally Posted by sod16 (Post 87978)

Publishers are to stupid to know that everyone likes a bit of realistic, they think it wont sell, they are taking the wii approach.

Originally Posted by Bael (Post 88163)

They're not 'too stupid' - they're businessmen with enough experience to know where the real money is at. Games that are easy to pick up sell more units, period. Most gamers measure 'realism' with far less scrutiny than Sim fanatics - "Whoa, my plane stalled - this is so realistic!" vs "Arcade rubbish - why don't my wheels rip off at this airspeed?!!". They're worlds apart, and most gamers are too intimidated by sim levels of realism. Sims, and flight sims in particular (due to their high barrier-to-entry), are a niche category.. no matter how many people are on these forums and clamoring for more realism we're still just a very small portion of the huge potential install-base publishers are going after.

The only way consoles are ever going to get a full sim is by approaching it gradually like BoP - by primarily creating an arcade flyer and sneaking in as many optional sim elements as they can for the fanatics. Until a sim developer is in a position where they don't have publishers calling the shots for them they're going to have to focus on the majority. Hopefully BoP can raise enough eyebrows to become the 'Forza' of console flying games, gain a little prestige in the console industry, and be given free reign to venture deeper into the sim territory than normal.

I think the game itself, judging from the demo, is great - I'm actually more worried that not enough people know about it, or will actually pass it up thinking it's too much of a sim (due to the IL-2 moniker). Provided BoP gets some proper marketing I'm positive it'll do well enough for a sequel - a good BoP + flight stick bundle couldn't hurt either! *grin*

And before I get the whole "I know more than you.." internet-know-it-all treatment I'll just note that I'm a professional game developer, with multiple current-gen console titles under my belt. When you're making a console game you have to pick and choose your battles - no developer gets to do everything they want to. A lot of things fall outside of the publishers focus (like wheels coming off) and just have to get dropped due to time constraints.

Originally Posted by thundermuffin (Post 88168)

Well said.
+1 in my book.
But actually to add to your point. I don't think that it will get the recognition it deserves because of the IL-2 moniker not registering AT ALL, let alone being tied to sims. I had NO idea what IL-2 was until I got the demo and WHAM! my dreams had come true. This is what I have always wanted out of a game but have never been able to effectively pursue it because of my love for Mac's... damn Apple...

Originally Posted by Riceball (Post 87709)

Please. :rolleyes: You're kidding right?



Just because wheels don't rip off at high speed ,which I doubt was common,

Originally Posted by Bael (Post 88163)

They're not 'too stupid' - they're businessmen with enough experience to know where the real money is at. Games that are easy to pick up sell more units, period. Most gamers measure 'realism' with far less scrutiny than Sim fanatics - "Whoa, my plane stalled - this is so realistic!" vs "Arcade rubbish - why don't my wheels rip off at this airspeed?!!". They're worlds apart, and most gamers are too intimidated by sim levels of realism. Sims, and flight sims in particular (due to their high barrier-to-entry), are a niche category.. no matter how many people are on these forums and clamoring for more realism we're still just a very small portion of the huge potential install-base publishers are going after.

The only way consoles are ever going to get a full sim is by approaching it gradually like BoP - by primarily creating an arcade flyer and sneaking in as many optional sim elements as they can for the fanatics. Until a sim developer is in a position where they don't have publishers calling the shots for them they're going to have to focus on the majority. Hopefully BoP can raise enough eyebrows to become the 'Forza' of console flying games, gain a little prestige in the console industry, and be given free reign to venture deeper into the sim territory than normal.

I think the game itself, judging from the demo, is great - I'm actually more worried that not enough people know about it, or will actually pass it up thinking it's too much of a sim (due to the IL-2 moniker). Provided BoP gets some proper marketing I'm positive it'll do well enough for a sequel - a good BoP + flight stick bundle couldn't hurt either! *grin*

And before I get the whole "I know more than you.." internet-know-it-all treatment I'll just note that I'm a professional game developer, with multiple current-gen console titles under my belt. When you're making a console game you have to pick and choose your battles - no developer gets to do everything they want to. A lot of things fall outside of the publishers focus (like wheels coming off) and just have to get dropped due to time constraints.

Originally Posted by thundermuffin (Post 88168)

Well said.
+1 in my book.
But actually to add to your point. I don't think that it will get the recognition it deserves because of the IL-2 moniker not registering AT ALL, let alone being tied to sims. I had NO idea what IL-2 was until I got the demo and WHAM! my dreams had come true. This is what I have always wanted out of a game but have never been able to effectively pursue it because of my love for Mac's... damn Apple...

Originally Posted by sod16 (Post 88249)

especially if the advertising is done by a 6 year old.