Official Fulqrum Publishing forum

Official Fulqrum Publishing forum (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/index.php)

- Pilot's Lounge (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=205)

- - Horton (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=32286)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robtek (Post 430442)

to dispel a myth hard facts are needed, not the opinion of "Experts" who try to explain something with second hand knowledge.

Well other than digging up Willy and asking him..

I can not think of a better group of experts on the subject of the Me262 than the folks at STORMBIRDS

Can you?

Quote:

Where as you on the other hand have no proof let alone quotes to support your theories would be considered twisting and bending what was said.

How about this:

Quote:

And the high speed wind tunnel testing the Germans were working on was for planes flying faster than that.. Which is why they did not immediately make the connection that a swept wing is beneficial at sub sonic speeds.

Untrue as we have seen. As we see bend and twisted to fit your argument.

Quote:

But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg and not to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

Untrue!
You are twisting things once more - only the outer wing section was initially swept for COG reasons.

Quote:

You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me 262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.

Where you had to add 'unique' later on. So bend and twisted from 'any' to 'any unique' - which has a completely different meaning.

Quote:

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

Your claim on the first ballistic missile. As we all know his rockets never got beyond the experimental point.
The claim that Goddard had "done it all before" is simply untrue.
Another prime example where you bend and twist history to fit your agenda.

And there was the issue where you claimed the Allieds didn't bother with rockets and the V2 as it was not worth - yet they were keen on capturing the design team and send over 600 bombers.

The problem is again and again you pick selected quotes that fit your believe,create a few more myths along the way and bend and twist some sources that they fit your agenda, and ignore anything that doesn't fit your agenda.

Result is a completely distorted and one sided point of view, about as bad as history channel.
++++

Quote:

Originally Posted by tools4fools (Post 430554)

How about this:

So what part of we will have to agree to disagree are you struggling with?

Well what was I thinking.. In that this is like the 3rd or 4th time I have said that so I guess you just want to argue

Now since you insist on being persistent (aka argumentative)..

Allow me to put all your so called wiki link proof to rest

With that said

Recall that we both agreed that the folks at STORMBIRDS are the 'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' aka 'EXPERTS' on the Me262

First up, note that it is apparent from this statement, i.e.

Quote:

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

it is true (as some writers seem intent on repeating loudly and often) that the Me 262s swept wing design was due to the need to adjust the center of gravity for the aircraft

with regards to the 'reason' the wings were swept to correct the cg, where they make note of what 'some writers' like myself point out, that they really hated having to admit that all their research they did during the process of building new Me262s from scratch confirms that statement.

That being the wings were swept to correct the cg due to heavier than expected engine..

Translated.. The wings were NOT swept to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

As for Germanys knowledge of swept wing theory prior and during the development of the Me262.

STORMBIRDS has this to say wrt Busemann and Walchner published work titled "Profile Characteristics as SUPERSONIC Speed" and the conference on high speed flight held in Rome where Busemann gave a lecture title "Aerodynamic Lift at SUPERSONIC Speed".

Note the qualifier SUPERSONIC, it will come up later

Quote:

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

The real surprise then is why was this knowledge of the swept wing not taken advantage of worldwide before it was experimentally proven on the Me 262. The only plausible (if somewhat vague) explanation was the resistance to new ideas found in all scientific circles

Which also agrees with what I have been saying from the start.. Other than they left out the qualifier that the swept wing studies/data applied to SUPERSONIC flight which is something no plane, not even the early jets of WWII were capable of doing.

Now the funny part is the STORMBIRDS web sight goes on to say

Quote:

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

What concrete connections can we show between later aircraft and the Me 262 and later aircraft you ask? Don't worry, there is enough circumstantial and material evidence....

The best way to approach this subject is to split it into subsections, highlighting the use of 262 technology by general countries and superpowers.

Yet when you click on the subsections ('next pages') what you will find is...

The ALLIED FORCES page is BLANK (under construction)

The OTHER FORCES page is BLANK (under construction)

The SOVIET BLOC page shows some examples of the Soviets testing some Me262 after the war, and a copy (Sukhoi Su9) they made of it that had straight wings (this is that 'one' post war jet I was referring to earlier)

So even STORMBRIDS had/has trouble making the wiki link types of connections between the Me262 and post war jet fighter designs that you claim are 'there' and easy to make..

I suspect it has something to do with STORMBIRDS having a reputation to consider, where as you don't! ;)

Which speaks volumes IMHO

And is very telling for those willing to listen and/or don't buy into the idea that the Germans were supermen and/or being assisted by aliens from space

This is a quote from the Smith/Creek 4 volume tome on the Me262, pg 66,

"By Feb 1940, the design of the P1065 had been modified to have the outer sections of its wings swept back some 18 degrees. Originally this was done to solve problems that heavier engine weight estimates were causing with the positioning of the aircraft's center of gravity. The BMW P.3304 turbojets were still proposed at this time."

The original P1065 design had straight wings and the engines were in the wings.

Quote:

Now since you insist on being persistent (aka argumentative).

Again and again and again you ignore everything else.
I will repeat and repeat and repeat as long as you continue to do so.
Maybe after reading the same 1000 times you will actually understand it.
Like little kids which have to write 100 times the same sentence on a blackboard.
Other methods than that seem not to work with you.

Quote:

Untrue, nothing but a myth created by you to support your single minded claims.

Quote:

and the conference on high speed flight held in Rome where Busemann gave a lecture title "Aerodynamic Lift at SUPERSONIC Speed".

Which was held in 1935. The following is 39-42:

Quote:

Hubert Ludewieg of the High-Speed Aerodynamics Branch at the AVA Göttingen in 1939 conducted the first wind tunnel tests to investigate Busemann's theory.[2] Two wings, one with no sweep, and one with 45 degrees of sweep were tested at Mach numbers of 0.7 and 0.9 in the 11 x 13 cm wind tunnel. The results of these tests confirmed the drag reduction offered by swept wings at transonic speeds.[2] The results of the tests were communicated to Albert Betz who then passed them on to Willy Messerschmitt in December 1939. The tests were expanded in 1940 to include wings with 15, 30 and -45 degrees of sweep and Mach numbers as high as 1.21.

So research included subsonic speeds and wing sweep 13-45 degrees and by 42 they knew about the advantage of the swept wing.
Your statement is false.
Twisted, trimmed and bend to support your claims.

Quote:

But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg and not to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

False again.
Only the outer wing was swept for correct of CoG as we have seen.

Quote:

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

Feel free to post a link to Goddards 'ballistic missile' for once. As far as I know he never reached those 'extreme altitudes' he was aiming for, 2700m was the max in his experimental rockets.

Once again, maybe one day you will learn and understand:
The V2 was the worlds first ballistic missile.

Quote:

So even STORMBRIDS had/has trouble making the wiki link types of connections

Now you twist and bend things again. You turn a 'under construction' page into 'having trouble' and state this as it was a fact.
Once again only in your imagination.
If they never finished their webpage there can be thousands of reasons for it - your claim that it is because they are 'having trouble is completely ridiculous and not based on any freaking facts.

Quote:

I suspect it has something to do with STORMBIRDS having a reputation to consider, where as you don't!

The only reputation you have is to post false and singled minded claims.
Have a nice day.
+++++

So your saying you know more about the Me262 than the folks at STORMBRIDS?

Huh.. Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that too

Quote:

So your saying you know more about the Me262 than the folks at STORMBRIDS?

The only one who claims to know more than the guys from Stormbirds is you.
After all you are the only on who knows the reason why those pages are 'under construction':

Quote:

So even STORMBRIDS had/has trouble making the wiki link types of connections

You are just ridiculous.

And I still waiting your statements regarding the following:

Quote:

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

Links to his working ballistic missile please.

Quote:

Untrue as we have seen. Myth created by you to support your one sided claims.

Quote:

But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg and not to take advantage of swept wing theory/technology

False again.
Only the outer wing was swept for correct of CoG as we have seen.

Once more you have showed that the only reputation you have is to post false and singled minded claims.
Have a nice day.
++++

Quote:

Originally Posted by tools4fools (Post 431232)

The only one who claims to know more than the guys from STORMBIRDS is you.

Hardly

When it comes to the Me262 design and development..

All I do is quote STORMBIRDS

Which is all it takes to upset those who belive, or want to belive the Germans were supermen and/or assisted by aliens!

For example.. The difference between your proof and my proof..

When I stated the wings of the Me262 were swept to correct the cg

my proof was to quote STORMBIRDS

When you stated the wings of the Me262 were NOT swept to correct the cg

Your proof consist of you having to resort to playing connect the dots with wiki links and ask people to take it on faith

See the difference?

IN SUMMARY

If there was any proof to support your faith based claims..

You can be sure STORMBIRDS would have mentioned it

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthursmedley (Post 430120)

Roflmao!:grin: What a great thread! And what a terrific sense of deja vu.
In another place, in another time;

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...pt+wings+me262

Ace of Aces appears on page four, post number 39. Enjoy!:evil:

Sadly he is over at the dcs forums, too.

And they are easy to spot..

Note how they have to resort to attacking the messenger..

Why?

Because they know they can not attack the message (aka truth)