and to all the people saying how it went off topic, it's probably the natural progression of a discussion on this thread, don't think for a minute there's intention in derailing the original topic.

What emerges though is that there is still a lot of misconceptions and different takes on how things went.

Sounds so familiar (minus the raping). What country were those elders from?

Soviets were not beasts per se, however there should be a distinction made: behavior is very different when soldiers are on offensive side, which hasn't suffered much losses, and when soldiers are retreating with lots of casualties or are back on offensive after lots of defeats. Germans were less nice while they were retreating, and Soviets were constantly fed with ideas of revenge by propaganda. Sadly it takes not much for war to make beast from human.

Romania

we were occupied by the Germans, both when victorious and when defeated, and also as allies and enemies.. and by the russians, both when defeated as enemies and victorious as allies.. and the only difference was between germans and russian, not if victorious or defeated, not if allies or enemies.. russian soldiers at that time were simply steppe barbarian hordes, leaving a trail of rape, death, fire and destruction behind them..

How do Spartans fit into this theory? :p

Sparta was an Oligarchy.

Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.

Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people. Throughout history, most oligarchies have been tyrannical, relying on public servitude to exist, although others have been relatively benign.

The Führer and Supreme Commander
of the Armed Forces


Führer Headquarters,
16th July 1940.
7 copies

Directive No. 16 On preparations for a landing operation against England

Since England, in spite of her hopeless military situation, shows no signs of being ready to come to an understanding, I have decided to prepare a landing operation against England and, if necessary, to carry it out.

The aim of this operation will be to eliminate the English homeland as a base for the prosecution of the war against Germany and, if necessary, to occupy it completely.

I therefore order as follows :

1. The landing will be in the form of a surprise crossing on a wide front from about Ramsgate to the area west of the Isle of Wight. Units of the Air Force will act as artillery, and units of the Navy as engineers.

The possible advantages of limited operations before the general crossing (e.g. the occupation of the Isle of Wight or of the county of Cornwall) are to be considered from the point of view of each branch of the Armed Forces and the results reported to me. I reserve the decision to myself.

Preparations for the entire operation must be completed by the middle of August.

2. These preparations must also create such conditions as will make a landing in England possible, viz:

(a) The English Air Force must be so reduced morally and physically that it is unable to deliver any significant attack against the German crossing.

(b) Mine-free channels must be cleared.

(c) The Straits of Dover must be closely sealed off with minefields on both flanks; also the Western entrance to the Channel approximately on the line Alderney-Poitland.

(d) Strong forces of coastal artillery must command and protect the forward coastal area.

(e) It is desirable that the English Navy be tied down shortly before the crossing, both in the North Sea and in the Mediterranean (by the Italians)1. For this purpose we must attempt even now to damage English home-based naval forces by air and torpedo attack as far as possible.

Stern, 2.a was not even close to being met and you still want to call it a draw. :rolleyes:

Democracy was what it was in ancient Greece, in which everyone's word had the same weight when taking a decision regarding's city's policy.

It is not the case anymore with XX century's "democracies"

I'll give you a single example about what american XX century democracy is: The Gulf of Tonkin incident (the pretext which actually started the Vietnam war).. How is this different than what they officially say Germany did to Poland? In only one aspect.. Germany didn't won..

Hmm.. in this case, you need to re-read the memories of the WWII british fighter pilots, which were brought on (or even over) the very edge of mental and physical collapse at that time..

EVERY soldier is a fanatic when psyched up by propaganda!

whatever the plan was, it was suspended for other matters. At the time of the suspension of major aerial operation over the Channel the RAF was at the brink of collapse, the Luftwaffe could have won the war of attrition, had they persevered.

Let's give you an example: you're playing football with your friends, at some point the other team needs to leave because more urgent matters require their presence, and so far the score is a draw, but you've been struggling and you know that if they didn't have to leave you might have lost that game. I would understand your enthusiasm for having got away with it, but would you really consider that a victory, or one to celebrate anyway? :rolleyes: