erm, blaming Nazi Germany for the killing of millions of innocent people is one thing I completely I agree on (as much as I hope you agree the Allies did the same), but the conditions for the outburst of WW2 were caused by a series of long and short term causes, which can't simply be tagged under "Germany", and this is not just me saying this..

You have to bear in mind that after the horrors of WW1, nobody was really too keen in the start of a new war, and the German public opinion had mixed reactions at first regarding the invasion of Poland. It was started in a clever(ish) way though, with the annexing of Austria and "peaceful" invasion of Czechoslovakia as a claim for the lost territories of the Empire, and the escalation to the proper conflict was skillfully fed to the people by the propaganda.

It's not like every German was a Nazi and wanted to conquer the world, that's a somewhat naive view me thinks..

It's just too long a thread to read it all, then go back and start again, quoting bits that jump out at you. No doubt this has all been discussed a million times before, and no one here will say anything that hasn't been said before, so if you don't want to read the same thing again, don't read the thread.

The allies certainly killed millions of innocent people. The differences are in justification. When bombing enemy civilians you may be trying to encourage the enemy to chance their tactics, or weaken their resolve. Or they may be casualties among military targets. None of it is nice, but if you are fighting to ultimately defend your country it can be understandable. There is no such way to defend the holocaust.

This is so wrong I don't know where to start. While over the centuries there has been truth in the saying that the victors write the history, you should not give up on finding the truth. If they had won the war, they would still have been the baddies (as you put it), we just might not know they were.

The Romans took over Europe, they won - they were not the goodies.
The Brits took over half the world - they were not the goodies.
The Crusaders went on a killing spree under the name of god - they were not the goodies.

No of course they weren't. It was your view that the war was not Germany's fault (the country, not every individual) that I am shocked by.

I'm sorry but that's a bit lazy: you get in a conversation while it's been running for a while and start blurting out sentences and calling people names just because you don't understand, how should one take this?
so you are shocked about what I said, whereas justifying the killing of innocents to stop a war is acceptable?! Double standards anyone?!?! How can you even begin to think that and consider yourself mature enough for this conversation?!?! I am shocked, seriously shocked.

Ah and FYI, check out how the Geneva convention was changed in 1949 regarding civilians...

Yeah, well good luck with that. And yes, if they won the war, on an absolute principle they would have been the baddies, but you reckon they would have said this or were aware of being the baddies?! Nobody thinks of themselves as the baddies.. I'm still shocked about your partial acceptance of the killing of civilians, how do you classify the invasion of Iraq after 9/11? Was the killing of all those civilians justified?

your analysis is pointless. History is not a court, it's a chronicle. Historical analysis on the other hand is a form of judgement, but it can be bent and adapted to the different perspectives.
excuse me, what's a country made of, land only? It's the majority of people of a country that decide for the fate of it.

lol, wtf?

Yes, we all see that you do that.

Hais triggaaar

I'd leave stern's comments alone and ignore them, it's like nailing a jellyfish to water. And makes about as much sense.

Oh no.

It's all kicked off again.

Sorry chaps, just thought I'd say hello again.:)

If they could just get the patch released we would have something else to talk about!

Regards Mike

well I'm sorry but my logic is pretty simple: I look at the dates, numbers, statistics before and after (up to at least two years in each direction), which are incontrovertible facts, then draw my personal conclusions, which I expose with no national sentiment, but keeping into account other's (if present).

so you too think that killing enemy innocent civilians is fine? Nice, I'm starting to delineate what sort of mentality goes on here among a certain bunch of people.

Un-frigging-believable :!: