Good luck with that.

I think it's cool and all what the MS kinect promises, and eventually will offer but don't expect it to work all that well for flight sims....yet anyway.

First off, I would wonder what the refresh rate on the kinect is? Even at 60fps that's only half of what a TIR offers, and yes it makes a LOT of difference in game.

Secondly, with all of that processing to recognize your head and how it's moving I would also wonder what the lag will be like. TIR is almost instantaneous the lower you keep the smoothing (processing) and I would imagine its much worse on an interface that has to figure out where your nose is in relation to the rest of your face. Then again, FT users are probably used to having more input lag than a dedicated TIR unit but I will concede that it might not be that bad having never tried FT and contend that it will likely suck on a kinect.

Thirdly, the kinect is made for console gamers. Which means it's probably not built with fidelity and accuracy in mind. C'mon, we're talking about Call of Duty type gamers used to having the console autoaim for a 'close enough' satisfaction appeal.

Still, I really do like the idea of having a Kinect-like device that eschews the need for hats/clips and look forward to the day a good dedicated company like NP come out with one.

And NP is a small company with a great group of guys from my experience, who are always willing to personally go out of their way to help, not some cliched "corporate bigwig" stereotype. They put a great deal of effort into getting games to open up to head-tracking for a flight/racing sim market that is infinitesimal.

You really don't understand that Kinetic-like solutions will not do the HT trick just scanning your head, but can do that scanning shoulders, arms, etc. And if you use some "markers", the 3-point calculation using Kinetic can be MORE accurate and fast as TIR, FT, etc.

In a flight sim it will be great in 6DoF HT, much more natural, with much more realistic movement. It's a totaly new approach, and we will see how it will work in near future. Isn't just for "Call Of Duty" games. Open your mind and think about possibilities: with Kinetic you can have the same 3-point HT PLUS really 3D motion capture.

"...And NP is a small company with a great group of guys from my experience, who are always willing to personally go out of their way to help, not some cliched "corporate bigwig" stereotype. They put a great deal of effort into getting games to open up to head-tracking for a flight/racing sim market that is infinitesimal...."

Spot on. I first contacted NaturalPoint after I lost my arm, what, fifteen years ago? The support from NP was great as I struggled to learn how to use SmartNav and cope with my disability. If I wrote to them they always replied immediately and positively, and, although it might sound trite, I felt they were really 'there for me'.

Later, when I got into flight games to pass the time, I wrote and asked how to use my SmartNav with Warbirds and Dawn of Aces. I guess I wasn't the first to ask, because TrackIR came out about a month later. I bought it and off we went. I bought the 3Pro when it hit the shelves - Forgotten Battles was around by then and I really enjoyed the extra sensitivity and the Vector Clip. About a year ago I bought TrackIR 5 and gave my 6-year-old 3Pro to a new-to-FB pilot. He's loving it. I'm loving the 5 too, and the Track-clip's accuracy & convenience...

Watching this thread I've been surprised at the animus that seems to lurk in the argument of the anti-NP crowd. I don't give a flying f*** if someone wants to use a freetrack solution to achieve head-tracking, and I hope they will be able to in CloD. But why on earth do some people want NP to "go bankrupt"? NP exists by creating a kit that works 'straight out of the box' - useful to disabled people like me (and many others) and the sort of people who haven't the time or the aptitude to either assemble the equipment or write code.

Along with the NP hardware and software comes that same level of support that was there 'for me' fifteen years ago. When I had a problem I wrote an e-mail; and when America had woken up, I received a reply that put me straight. Somehow I don't think I could expect the same level of dedication from the freetrack crowd.

brando

The true measure of a man is not how he treats his friends, but how he treats his enemies.

by the sounds of it, you've already spent $150 approx.
A consesus was reached here very early in the piece that games should be available for alternative forms of headtracking... the hack method of doing so is in question though. Solution - develop a clean product



see point 1




see second last paragraph



see point 1



subject for a different thread, not the one in hand



we have agreement on that



you may have mised the fact, there was a consensus reached very early on




Thier disputes with NP, or NP's disputes with FT?
From you saying, it seems FT doesn't have much of a case either... how long has it all been going on for now? 2 - 3 years?


How much support would be offered with your bud's ap?

* Edit


.... you whinge about the cost of TIR (the whole argument for FT you present) but jump at paying for Kinect?

I would argue that I do, in fact, understand the "Kinetic-like" solutions better than you likely do. It takes a lot more processing power to figure out tracking points on a face or body than it does for 3 solid dots, and even more still to do so with any accuracy. I'm not saying it isn't possible just that I'm very skeptical for the first generation of these devices to be able to even come close to competing with TIR for the purpose of tracking head movement.

I do think this is the direction we're going though and it will be a good solution. Just not yet.

its the kind of gizmo (after more development) which would work nice with a virtual reality helmet.
might be a bit hard to mount on top of the monitor for use as a headtracker, with its current size though

YES!

Kinetic is some unique hardware unit that can do what a cheap wecam can't do, isn't TIR overpriced crap!

lol

(if TIR is crap, why do you go all out to emulate it?)

"Kinetic-like" solutions can traking just 3 dots like our today HT solutions. They use a normal camera that can trace the "3 dots" easily. The WAY they track these dots is that make these kind of solution much more flexible, with the TOF camera. If someone want great response just tracking 3 dots, it's easy to do, it's just a small part of the solution, isn't?

is there game support yet? do you want to see it in CoD next month? will you not buy, if it isn't included?

oh... TIR is also some unique hardware unit which can do what a cheap webcam can't

probably you didn't understand that the process is done by the device and not by the pc?

Did you guys seen what the people already did with the hacked Kinect all around the net? Please, have a look in here. Think what it will be done once the developer SDK will be let out of the door by M$.

Just have a look at the latest demo, the KinVi: A Kinect-Enabled Virtual Interface for Windows 7 Control.

I do not hate NP. But I have no respect for a firm which ask much more money for a product than it should, only because they have a monopolistic position. Which means the first occasion will arise to dump NP and go for another product, I will grab it without looking back or ever caring about NP.

Kinect has 3 cameras in it, and a LOT more plastic and internal hardware components than NP. If it also has some processors to do all the movement recognition internally, then even so much more, than NP's TrackIR. Yet, they have roughly the same price. Do you want to pick up a bet with me, regarding how much the cost for a NP TrackIR device will be lowered, once M$'s Kinect will put out the drivers for PC? Only then, you will actually see the true price of that product, but unfortunately, it will be too late. Even if NP will be forced to do it to survive competition, I won't but anything from them as soon as another (and better as it already is) product is out, even if much more expensive. I have money and I want to pay, I just don't want to be taken as a fool or enforced. All I just want is to be asked for a fair price.

Make no mistake, Kinect is the way user-computer interaction and control will be in the future. TrackIR, mouse's and keyboards have to go to computer history's recycle bin, and will do it, sooner than you'd think.

It looks to be a great gadget...


[QUOTE=adonys;227326]

I do not hate NP. But I have no respect for a firm which ask much more money for a product than it should, only because they have a monopolistic position. Which means the first occasion will arise to dump NP and go for another product, I will grab it without looking back or caring about NP.

[/QUOTE}



It has been proven there is no NP monopoly, so why persist in this?



Given, it is a completely different product and slightly different qualities such as resolution (iiuc)



quite possibly



How do you determine the "true price" of any product?



Perhaps, perhaps not, though time will tell




all that is your perogative, but let me ask; do you also whinge about the charge for video cards?





undoubtedly, but some here got upset because support stopped for "old" products.

Ubi/Oleg might not talk but others do, recently Miner Wars developer considering TrackIR support:

"The good thing about TrackIR is its Standardized so people will know it will work with there hardware with out any tweaking. Also the product is very sound and high quality, you may not like TrackIR for w/e reason but it is an industry standard and most likely will be going with it, we may support others in the future only time will tell." http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=487

Industry standard is as good as monopoly.

I haven't seen any proof you're talking about. And have you seen me ever before saying this, to talk about me persisting in this?

You are right, the resolution is much better in M$'s Kinect.

Simply: by estimating the costs of the hardware incorporated in that product, deducting it from the selling price to obtain the added value cost, and comparing the added value cost with that of other similar products.

Regarding the above comparison, the hardware from M$'s Kinect is MUCH more expensive than the one from NP's TrackIR, and the same for the research and software needed for those two products. With the selling price being the same, it's obvious that NP's TrackIR is MUCH overpriced.

Also, if you may find the comparison forced, we can analyze just the TrackIR itself: NP are selling the product mostly online, which means they can't pay more than 20% for the online seller. The usual profit rate for a good business is somewhere at 10%. Let's cut NP a slack and allow a 30% profit. I doubt that the hardware required for a TrackIR exceeds 10-15 euros, which would be roughly around 10% from the selling price. Do the sum, and you'll get 40% for.. what? drivers and sowftare and research? in a 5th generation product, which only evolved from hardware's point of view? The real price of TrackIR should not exceed 50-60 euro.

Aaa.. you are serious about comparing a video card's research, hardware and software costs with that of a head-tracking device like TrackIR? Maybe if compared with Kinect.. but with TrakIR?!! You must be joking, or playing stupid, better make sure you won't remain like that after..

Stopping support for "old" products is an indicator of economic greed, if that product is not hardware deprecated. Which is the case in here, as at least TrackIR's 3 hardware is fine enough (and the device itself not so old in usage-years).

PS: Please do not try to impose your bullying attitude you've displyed on this thread towards me, I'll have none of it. Thank you!

You obviously haven't read the thread through (either of them) and are operating under a misapprehension... you were corrected



are you sure?



Have you considered including labour costs, packaging and manufacturing overheads? and TIR is available in retail outlets as well.




that's you making a false connection there... so what of the charge for video cards? and why no cries of duopopoly?




so... dropping support for AGP, gameport, and basically p/2 and floppy drives is greed?



don't falsely claim monopoly, when there isn't and you'll have no need for your aggressive defence when corrected ;)



*Edit


give it another go, son (read down a few posts)

How about instead of telling people to read the thread you go back and quote this "proof"? If it is simply a post of you saying "no it isn't" then that doesn't count. You've tried this a couple of times in this (and the other) thread and it isn't really fooling anybody.

80% of NPs TrackIR products (1-4) have a lower resolution than Kinect. TrackIR 5 has an identical resolution to Kinect.

I was going to drop it earlier as clearly you can't be reasoned with but your persistance of attacking Freetrack in these threads as well as a google search showing me this isn't the only forum you have done it on leads me to agree with some others conclusion that you are in fact a Natural Point employee.

How about you go back and read the thread through, instead?
Its not meant to "fool" anyone, it is meant as do yourself a favour and catch up... otherwise things really would be going around in circles, complete with quotes from pages ago. Then the cries of "spamming" would start, eh



thanks


reasoning is easy... just come to the party with honest discussion. Now just because you feel a hack should be allowed and someone else feels a hack shouldn't be allowed, makes for a difference of opinion... I'm sorry you don't like a different opinion to yours, is this where things are going to get narsty? and which forums do you mean there?

I'll tell you again, I have! What would be the point in me looking through a thread again for something that doesn't exist?

See that's the thing, it's your opinion that it's a hack. You've made your feelings quite clear yet every time someone comes in to show their support for the inclusion of FT you repeat them.

I don't mind the opinions of others, and I don't expect to be able to change them. What I mind is people stating their opinion as fact without backing those opinions up and circular arguements repeacted to try and force your opinion onto others. This is what is happening imo and the reason i've let myself get sucked back into this topic.

I have no intention for things to get nasty so don't worry about that. If you can't remember where, try a google search for wolf rider and freetrack. I suppose there is a possibility it isn't you.

In fact, you haven't corrected anything, just made a statement without any support. Which equals bullshit in any common sense interpretation. Actually, you were the one corrected for the wrong use of the "persistent" word. A wrong you don't seem to accept or even understand.

Yes, I am sure. Why would I be less sure than you when stating that TrackIR has better resolution than Kinect? Where is the data to support that statement?

Let me tell you the actual data, as the person above stated, the resolution is equal, ie 640x480. Raw. Which kinda leads me to another serious thing: Why would NP post a RAW resolution on their site for TIR5 specs? The answer to that is the well known white-painted marketing: make public a true, but not useful, characteristic. Why would someone be interested in TIR5's RAW resolution? I am interested in TIR output/computed resolution, which might even be 32x24 if you ask me, as long as NP doesn't make any statement regarding this.

So, M$'s Kinectic is using a 320x240 out resolution.. What output resolution is using TIR5? None on NP's site, so, allow me, until NP will make that public, to consider Kinectic's resolution bigger.

Yes, I have considered them. They were embedded into the hardware (manufacture) price of 10-15 euros. Retail outlets ask for a bigger % from the selling cost than online sellers, yet most of the NP's sells are made via the online stores, so that can be safely ignored.

That is not me making a false connection, but you eating bullexcrements.

I was talking about a fair price, and you said why not complain about videocards, then you turned it into a monopoly complain, which was actually not. that monopoly complain was above.

And just for you to learn, there's no duopoly (which actually is a special case of oligopoly) on the videocard market, you're confusing the production of videocard chipsets with videocards manufacturers. And basic economic knowledge would have told you that an oligopoly is not necessary a bad thing, as long as the players are not following an agreed (price) policy and a correct market competition exists between them.

those are classic examples of hardware deprecated. There is a BIG difference bewteen the way an AGp vs PCIx hardware are working. Can you tell me why TIR3 hardware is considered deprecated, and sodiferent thant the hardware from TRI4 or 5 to not be supported anymore?

It's obvious you have no common sense and are not a reasonable person to talk with. Even more, your fanaticism is suspect of direct NP influence.

I have nothing more to say or talk to you anymore, please feel free to consider this discussion with you ended and yourself ignored.

err, if you go back and read through, you'll find you're wrong



where did I say that?



Does Kinect publish that? and I think you mean 480, not 40



and that is important, because _ _ _ _ _ ?



you may have underestimated, but that's not uncommon



agreed... ignore it



same situation, different players and you try to ignore one in favour of the other



see the above



incorrect... I mentioned duopoly


yours and corrected


manufacturers get the chips from which of two major manufacturers?



the equivalents of speed, amount ofdata transfer... perhaps? same as AGP/ PCIx



and what has that got to do with the thread?


If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that..




let me also ask; does the xbox kinnect connect with earlier xboxes?

Your employer should pay you in percentage instead of dollars.

In fact I think the hardware of TIR is about $10 including the cap.
But there is still marketing, development(salaries), rent for office/warehouse and production facility setup - your supplier doesn't make the molds for free, you are aware of that, right?


Let's do some calculations on numbers I have and a good bunch of guessing:

Judging by serial numbers of Tir 5, they sold at least 30k units in 09/10.
I got serial 120xxx and I read about 160xxx.

Now let's look at the euro reseller prices:
€145, minus tax €116.
Margin: Your 20% are wrong for sure, that's nowhere enough unless it's a huge amount. A reseller takes 30-40, specially if it's a unit with low sales numbers. NP can probably wholesale sell it for 60, maybe 70 euros.

USA: best guess $70-80


Reseller vs NP e-shop: Judging by the members on NP forum, I would say 70% bought from a reseller.


Units USA vs rest the world: I have no numbers, so lets merge $ and € prices and take (high) $80 as an average reseller price.


70% go into wholesale @ $80= 21k*$80= $1.6mil
30% direct= 10k*150= $1.5mil

3 millions - wow, to pay all the crap I listed at the beginning?
But wait: That is for 2 years, so we're down to 1.5/y.
1.5mil equals a shop with 3 to 4 employees...
Even better: Cut that in half, because it's sooooo overpriced.

In case anyone has additional info, like higher or lower serials, proof of margins or the like, please post here.

Swiss, thats one of the better posts here !!!

well, the math is only partially correct. because:

- a serial number of 160xxx rather leads towards a 160k units produced, not just 30k.
- even at 30k, with 1.5 mils a year and 5 employees paid at let's say 3k a month (which is a big wedge) will results in 5x3x2x12 (employees, wedge, taxes, months) = 360k a year. add another 300k for hardware costs (10x30k) and you'll get expenses of around 660k. let's throw another 300k for the other expenses (rent and so on, even if is more than three times what should be spent on for these), and you'll get 960k from 1500k. a profit of more than 50%, which is HUGE.

now, considering NP is not only doing TrackIR, the costs should be even less.

And if we'll actually consider the 160k units produced and at least 140k sold (I'm sure they are not manufacturing them all at once, but in batches accordingly to demand), then we are looking at other summs entirely.

Nothing of this change the fact that TrackIR is nothing more than a sort of performant camera, hardware wise, and asking 150 euro for that, is WAY too much.

swiss was probably referring at his serial number started with 120xxx bought a couple of years ago probably? now it is about 160xxx so 160k-120k = 40k/2 = 20k units x year that is what swiss said (about 30k for 2 years) am I right?

no one will use the same serial spanning across different iterations of the same product. is more probable that the serial is reset with each new version (see Thrustmaster's Warthog for example).

and even so, at 30k (which should actually be almost 40k), doesn't change the 50% profit.

and even more, no matter the calculations we are doing in here, the product is WAY overpriced for a camera hardware category.

would you pay double for a fork just because the business producing it can't be productive enough to make it at the normal price it should?

I see lots of webcams sold all around the net or store sellers, at prices starting with 10 euro. from there, to 150 euro it is a looooooong way, way too long for my tastes.

Again, measuring profit only percent per unit is bullshit - you have to look at the actual numbers. And costs.
A software developer takes over 100k a year, if he doesn't he works at the wrong place.
What kind of job should that be 3k? Cleaning the warehouse?
Btw:
Have you ever run a shop?
I did.

Serial numbers: You are aware they can start wherever they like? The can start with a 10digit number if they feel like it.
That's why I asked fort higher or lower numbers, for T5 only.

edit: To alb: exactly

adonys, 150 IS the NORMAL price for a complete plug'n play headtracking solution!

You are comparing a Buggy-Kit complete, ready to assemble, based on a VW Beetle (the original) with a brand-new Mercedes 280SE fresh from the factory.

Maybe in your world, not in mine. But what do I know?

I've put above a lot of reasoning, but you seem to not understand or ignore it. The simple fact that M$, which is by definitiona the mother of all greedy corporations, asks only 150 for a device which is far ahead in everything (hardware, software, characteristics, capabilities, utility and usage) compared with TrackIR should make you wonder.. but no, you seem to be obsure to common sense and reasoning.

I guess, after all, that's the reason we still have to live with overpriced devices.. because of attitudes like yours..

Maybe, but my impression is that we have to live with illegal or at least moral despicable behaviour because of people with a attitude like you.

btw, can you tell me the price of a ready to use head-tracking-solution thats NOT coming from your imagination?

You don't seem to understand the difference between a massive worldwide corporation with a huge mass market and a company that makes head-trackers for a far far smaller market, and their respective purchasing abilities.
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that M$ makes a higher net profit on their devices just because of their buying power, and the kudos that being a supplier to M$ brings. Put it this way: if you were CEO of a chip-making firm and you went to a bank to raise some capital, which contract would you rather have in your back pocket; one from a firm called Naturalpoint or one from the corporation called Microsoft?
I see people running off figures like tens of thousands - big deal. M$ aren't even going to think about it unless the market is in the millions.
As for the idea that making 50% profit on an item is overpricing - what planet are you living on? Take a look around you, at your electronic devices, your furniture, even the clothes you are wearing. Don't you know that 50% is the basic mark-up for all retail items sold? Get real...

Funniest post ever!

If you built the "I'm not a complet idiot and can buy a PS3eye/Wiimote, plug it in a PC, and sold some IR leds in some kind of suport and fix it in one headset", the NORMAL price will be less than $50... And with 100-120FPS... :cool:

This topic can't be taken serious with this kind of "defenders" of NP hardware...

Clothes is a good point.

The most expensive, super high quality T-shirt on planet, is $2(!) wholesale, yet it is unlikely you'll ever find this quality in store.
Standard quality for western countries is ~$1.

Percentage:
We had items in the shop with a net profit of 90%.
That's not cost times 1.9, but cost times 10. Plus tax and CC commission.
WTF?!
We must be billionaires!
Really?
It's a cycle tube, cost is 85cent landed, retails for $10.
For those $9 you have to ship from the warehouse to the store, unpack and put in the shelve, answer stupid questions(is it the right size?), it enter into the system and cash it. Sure, there is still some profit left, no problem.

But:
We only sold 2k pcs of them per anno, so it's still only 20k which is more like peanuts. We could have sold them for $20 and would still sell 1800.
On the other hand if we sold them for $5 we could possibly increase sales to 2.5 units.
Do the math.


Another example?
You can sell one lot(50pcs) of $2000 bikes, ready to use/warranty/1st service incl. with a margin of 25%, or even less, as you get $500 a pop.
You CAN NOT do the same wit a $500 bicycle.
Assembly and service cost stay the same.
And in this example we don't even have R&D...

You could as well say:

"if you're not a complete idiot, you can just download your favorite OS, run the hack and save $300".

Feel free to replace OS with: mp3, movie or any software of you choice.

Adonys... Euro?? you forgot shipping and taxes

Still with this crap of "hack"?

Pathetic.

By the way, Bill Gates don't bother if a lot of "poor" individual users "hack" his OS... It's the funniest thing too!!!

Keeep saying "HACK"! It's funny!

Amusing thread.

Personally after working all day in IT support and maintenance I much prefer to just pay a few dollars to get something that works rather than build my own head tracker.

I did try building my own rudder pedals once and it was seriously not worth the effort.

However if other people enjoy building their own pedal powered PC or homemade head tracker who am I to oppose it. Its also possible some people may have trouble justifying the cost of a trackIr with the wife or girlfriend.

Either way I see no reason not to allow access to the free interface for those people keen enough (or financially challenged enough) to build their own.

that's as taken for granted, Galway... and no-one is arguing against an alternative which is free of relying on another's copyrighted product to work being included.
Most however use the hack option within Freetrack to hack NP's software... even with games that have access made open to alternative headtrackers (FSX/ ArmAII for instance), most of the users pass over those options in favour of the NP software hack because of the better results.

Tut, Tut, naughty boy, using such language.....must I remind you to at least try and answer my simple question?



QUESTION...........Why have NP been unable to claim damages or prevent the use of their original DLL against, or by, 3rd party developers?

I seem to be having De ja Views (excuse the pun), haven't I asked this before?


.....................and never get an answer.....I wonder why that is?

answer is the same as last time

Last time?......apologies - I must have missed it!
Please point me to it, it may be buried in approx. 3000 posts, or better still, remind me of what you said.

you are aware FT is a hack, aren't you See?

There is no TrackIR interface in FSX, Troll_Rider.

"We use simconnect to "talk" with FSX, as does some other 3rd party hardware and software." http://forum.naturalpoint.com/forum/...t&Number=20766

FSX is a trackIR enhanced game..... this one has been gone over before

Please explain quote then.

"We use simconnect to "talk" with FSX, as does some other 3rd party hardware and software." http://forum.naturalpoint.com/forum/...t&Number=20766

Which brings me back to my question.....no need to repeat it, its five above this one - but, until it is answered, I for one cannot simply assume (or claim) it is 'hacked' as you and others put it.

I would expect a manufacturer to protect their 'intellectual property' through civil action. If that were not the case I would have to question wether it was in fact their 'Intelectual property', which could possibly explain that manufacturer having to devise an alternative.

the answer was given See...

what does "civil action" mean to a hack?

rather a straightforward statement there and no explanation necessary (even for Gracie)




@

See... you're going nowhere, don't you see that?

That is not an answer to my question.

But one I suspect you cannot answer and yet continue to assert copywright infringement as a reason why FT should not be inclusive alongside TrackIR. Untill you or NP answer the question, you cannot substantiate that argument against inclusion. I would like both for the benefit of all!

that may be in your world, See, but the answer you've hassled for (to your own detriment) has already been given. Now, if that doesn't work for you...read the threads through s l o w l y and from the beginning, you'll learn more. Maybe you'll learn that a consensus was reached very early on regarding inclusion of alternative headtracking... the sticking point being on how they go about what they do.

Its not hard

According to Natural Point lawyers the FreeTrack developers:

"removed violating material from the binaries and replaced it with tools which allow the user to violate the copyright themselves when TrackIR support is needed".


From a legal point of view this apparently moves the copyright violation from the FreeTrack developers to end users of FreeTrack. Taking individual users to court is ridiculous.

However this discussion is also ridiculous as no-one here is, as far as I know, actually a copy-right lawyer so everyone is simply scanning the web for quotes to try and badger the opposition with.

How’s this for scanning the web.

Some really, really funny reading about the installation hell that VF19_Wolf_Rider has to go through to "hack" the Sim Connect dll and get his TrackIR to work.

http://forum.naturalpoint.com/forum/...r=20766&page=5

Quite a "clean" solution you got there W-R. You still sleep well at night? Or maybe section 107 "Fair Use" exception to U.S. Copyright Act helps you with this? Your sticking point is pure fallacy. But certianly you are entitled to wash, rinse, repeat as much as you like. ;)

And as it has been already said by FT-users, they give a rats-turd for violating the copyright!
And they still have the chuzpe to tell that NP is the "Big Bad Company with a monopol"
PATHETIC!

Sure, sure. As long as you don't play any of these "trackIR enhanced" games, your as pure as the wind driven snow!!!:)

robtek, your sig is violating 1C copyright with screenshot of IL2 gameplay. PATHETIC!

you sir are a complete and utter moron




I used to be in SQN40 too ;)

Yes Number Six. The irony is indeed very thick here. The mask has finally been pulled off and your identity revealed. Now that you know that the hackee who hacks, provides the hack to the hacker, what will you do??? Name change I bet.:grin:

No need to change and nothing was "hidden", though your scouring the 'net for background is a bit suspect don't you think?

At this point, what ever puts your mind at ease Number 1.:grin:

"cause and effect" misused in a fallacy




You are one of the lawyers of M$ that said to the European court that illegal users of windblows said that they don't give a rats-turd for violating the copyright and still had the chuzpe to tell M$ is the "Big Bad Company with a monopol"?... They didn't believed you, right?...

but what has that got to do with NP and the FT hack?

57 pages of arguing over NP and FT...just wow...

+19 pages of Wolf_Rider's previous troll.

Another lie, and a really stupid one, as usual.

In ArmAII the Freetrack Interface works exactly with the same performance as the TIR one. And just a MORON with Freetrack will use the "NP software hack", because it's change the .exe and crap the MP capabilities.

This moron talk a lot of crap. Freetrack Interface don't have any issues compared with TIR one. They work the same simple way: sending HT data to some software, raw, pose, etc.

This guy is a complete idiot. And a LIAR with bad intentions.

not my fault you don't like views which differ to yours

At this point, I strongly believe the idiot is just posting to kill any discussions in these threads, a thing which not only shows stupidity, but sheer bad intentions.

+ 30 pages of the above

Bill Gates last working day at MS was in 2008, officially he's just a "chairman" - I think they should rather call him counselor.

Have you noticed MS stopped giving away free software for piracy victims - they now make you pay for the real thing.

What would call the W7loader? Crack instead of hack? "Workaround"? Matters, lots...
If they dont care, please explain update KB971033.
And I have some doubts MS makes the big money with retail OS'.

To build a bridge to Kinect:
We dont even know if MS is actually making money with it.
Rumor has it they are losing some with each sale - for the simple goal to get more market share.
They are in good company though:
Sony is STILL losing money in 2011 with each PS3 sold, 6%.
Funny,huh? Sony has a greedy rep too.

Royalties on games must be good.

This argument is a bit like two pilots in a turning battle and neither can get the angle.......one has to break.

I will post this in both threads as they are essentially the same and, as a user of both systems, have been the 'devils advocate' for too long. So both sets of combatants read the following! I added the RED text to version violation.

Text strings bearing explicit notice of "EyeControl Technologies" copyright (former name of NaturalPoint, Inc.) can be found within previous versions of the library in question. However, the strings have been encrypted in recent versions of the library to hide them. The continued presence of the strings can be verified by connecting to the interface and reading them.

The creators of FreeTrack did not deny copyright infringement at this time.

During early releases FreeTrack V1 the source for their TrackIR Enhanced DLL was publicly viewable. The copyrighted strings were clearly visible in the file NPClient_h.pas. Since that time, the developers have removed public access to the TrackIR Enhanced DLL in their source control system , while the rest of their source remains open to the public.

Already addressed this, strings are functional part of interface so no copyright violation.

Section 102 copyright law repeated again.

"In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work."

so... let's go back 100 posts;

Article 10 paragraph 1 of TRIPs provides that a computer program is a type of work which is eligible for protection under copyright law:

"Computer programs, whether in source or object code, shall be protected as literary works under the Berne Convention (1971)."


and

Article 27 paragraph 1 of TRIPs states that:

"(...) patents shall be available for any inventions, whether products or processes, in all fields of technology, provided that they are new, involve an inventive step and are capable of industrial application. (...) patents shall be available and patent rights enjoyable without discrimination as to the place of invention, the field of technology and whether products are imported or locally produced."


and back 20, for See

Unfortunately, as this thread clearly demonstrates - theres legal Black and White with a hell of a lot of Grey in between. My final say....FT V2.2 Fine but V1 very iffy.....

my quote in #573 is 2.2 ;)

You can assert your rights all you want. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions where these rights are not enforceable. Again, Copyright Act section 107 "fair use" clause when the use is non-commercial or section 102 where you have no rights in the first place. Also, the fact that Freetrack creators did not deny copyright infringement doesn't make it so. Also, TIRViews.dll must be a a hack too??? The difference here is, this is not non-commercial fair use. This is commercial. A profit motive. Big freakin' difference. NP is trying to sell their products, so they made a hack to games so user can have 6dof for games that did not intend to have it. What's their legal cover??? More NDA for all these games??? B.S. Also, why does NP make their dll freely available to the public if they are so worried about copyright violation by Freetrack??? Maybe because they don't want to get called on it??? Also, why does W-R keep quoting TRIPs??? Good luck enforcing that. We aren't in the NWO yet. Nation states still follow their own laws when the rubber hits the road. And W-R is really streeeetching that case anyway. He assumes WTO would override section 102 and 107 of U.S. copyright Act and that the U.S. would actually enforce such a thing. Where's the precedent??? There is none. More B.S.

All this legal mumbo jumbo doesn't lead anywhere as we aren't in the position to do anything about it.
It was admitted here that FT Users did, and still do, use the NP route to access games that dont use the free accessible freetrack.dll.
As this is done by the users and not by FT it is not possible to prosecute.
So the users using the hacked NP-route are legally safe but maybe morally questionable.
As it was explained quite a few post earlier, NP is not the big multinational company with unlimited resources as some posters her seem to imagine.
It is a company that started with software/hardware to ease the life of disabled people which then expanded to this small niche-market flight-simulation.
Still it is a small company and when the kinect system from MS is pushed into the market, this company is history, along with other companies that serve this market.
Then we all will find out what a real monopol is, when the price for kinect units has risen to the real costs plus the gain MS can get then without rivals.
I believe some will then look back with grief to this time with petty discussions.

Quite so! And when Windows 10 comes down the chute and makes all your Kinect software unworkable, so that you have to shell out for Kinect IV to keep using tracking - viz. Win XP, FFB1 and the gameport interface - then I expect we'll hear all the same stuff again. The only problem by then will be that no-one is listening.

Now Kinect is "underpriced"... A "dumping" attempt to dump a product that don't have competition yeat... A beautifull way to justify NP overpriced HT solutions for sims.

Please, don't try to discuss economics... This example makes me laugh a lot!

Well, it will be not "to dump a product that don't have competition yeat" but to corner a possible market!
By the way, can you proof in any way that TIR is overpriced???
I mean with facts, not your fantasy.
And dont you try to compare with a mass-market webcam, apples and oranges!

Can you prove to me that NaturalPoint is a little itty bitty company? Show us their financial statements. AFAIK, they are privately held, so you won't be able to do that. So, I'm supposed to take your word for it they don't make much money for such a small company, when you at the same time question my morality for using Freetrack when it is perfectly legal to do so. At least this time you prefaced it with "maybe". So, "maybe" I'm making headway here.;)

Nice try, MB.
There was a calculation here in this thread, by swiss, i believe, that gave a plausible account of the possible money NP is making with TIR.
Thats at least 100% more than we've seen for the proof of greedyness!
And it isn't legal to use the NP software with FT, it only can't be prosecuted.
But keep on grasping for straws to keep your morality intact, if it is okay for you to bent legality when you don't have to fear prosecution, so be it.
Just don't tell everybody it is perfectly ok to do so.
Btw, i have to admit that i am no angel myself, but thats private and i dont advertise.

Frankly, NP profit margin is irrelevant from my point of view. It is a simple make/buy decision where I do a differential cost/benefit analysis relative to my pocket book. That has nothing to do with NP profit margin and the reason I didn't jump into that conversation. The fact that adonys uses it in his purchasing decision is an example of exogenous factor in play. If he doesn't want to buy TrackIR because he feels NP profit margin is too high, well more power to him. If you feel NP is an itty bitty company that needs your donation to survive and it gives you feeling of moral superiority, well more power to you. These aren't economic rational reasons in my mind. But they do drive purchasing decisions. Now, if you want to buy TrackIR because you don't want to build one and you want customer support, that is rational imo. If you want to build Freetrack and save some money, that is also rational imo.

Ilya Shevchenko @ 2:17

'It's very important for us to interface with all the new devices and of course we keep track of all them to make sure that they all work. And we take great pains to ensure that our users who fly our game can use ALL of the devices that they have. '

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoz1Kb2wkPE

Sigur_ros, very good that you post that so late on page 59, its been one of the more lively discussions here :-D

MadBlaster, i admit i have too agree with your post, it is rational.
What brought me into this discussion were the irrational accusations by FT-users of mysterious agreements (NDA's) between the big, greedy NT company and not exactly mentioned, but shurely real, game-devs, to suppress the rights and the freedom of a little band of FT-users. :-D

You mean like this?

'Implementation of the "HeadTracker" interface is canceled at the request of NaturalPoint.' http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=33510

@robtek

Okay. Then I take back that your "irrational". You can keep the "I'm immoral". I've been living with that one for awhile anyway.:-P

@sigur_ros
Your timing is impeccable.:lol:

response to Lobi ...

" Or perhaps you'd like to make some money out of your efforts - I understand you don't.

See, people who want to earn money from their work tend to respect others who try to do the same - this is why companies respect NP's property.

Thread closed. "

Yes, the response of a crap company without guts. A company who sells the "first title" of "DCS", uses the same old engine of LOMAC, and goes trough two years to release the next module.

It's a big fail project. And it's really funny that you talk about DCS and not about BIS! LOL!

Look at ArmAII and O:A sales and compare with DCS series... BIS don't need the leftovers of NP, W-R...

As usual, pathetic. Put links to Freetrack fair discussion in BIS forums, loser!

If Ilya said, I'll glad because I'll can use my PS3Eye and Freetrack to HT, because it's even not a "new" device.

Thank you!

too bad you mised it on day one, eh?

and you never did explain, in layman's terms, how the interfacing works in ArmAII did you, LoBi...

So you defend Natuarlpoint stopping clean alternative interface . What happend to consensus?!?!

If you meant those words you would not jump automatically to defend Naturalpoint like always.

There you go, a direct link to a post of a developer stating another communication interface implementation was stopped at the express request of TrackIR. Which also implies that is might be a current policy of NP to ask simulation developers to only implement TIR interface into the engine.

THAT can be used to sue NP for unfair business competition.

"the alternatives developers have every opportunity to present a clean alternative to developers in seeking inclusion. A consensus was reached very early in the thread on games should be available to alternative headtracking"

... yes, I do mean those words



the thing about that is there has been a loud noise made about that and no actual proof...

I explain in layman's terms how FreeTrackClient.dll route works, sorry if you can't understand.

Someone can try explain to W-R in totally moron terms.

no you haven't

iirc that was at the time when the alternative still included NP software.
The alternative changed that later in this form that then the, not prosecutable, user had to violate the copyright to gain access to titles without freetrack.dll.

bla-blaing around that FACT is only what it is: mindless mumbling. if that statement is true, and was made by a developer, then, I repeat, NP can be sued by anyone having interest in using a WR interface with that product, on the basis of unfair competition, no matter how many bla-blas will you throw in here on NP's behalf to cover it. just ask any lawyer you want for confirmation about this.

adonys, you have to quit on that selective reading.
I wrote: "iirc that was at the time when the alternative still included NP software."
FT was forced to remove the NP Software from its bundle. FACT
The only one who has difficulties understand short sentences and therefore is blah-blahing seems to be you. :-D

Yes I have. If you are so stupid that can't understand, isn't my fault.

Everybody with a functional brain understood how FreeTrackClient.dll can provide HT data to any aplication.

You still stuck with "mouse look" and "hack". You even can't understand that. Sorry if you are that stupid, I can't do anything about that.