Yep here is a photo of one - (no hakenkreuz but there seems to be a painted over section where one previously existed):

http://thumbsnap.com/i/K1gJUFZN.jpg


Shame all these captured 109's were melted down for the metal ... but I suppose there was a war on.

Great picture.

Great picture, but are you sure it's from Stab/JG 53? The Gruppe insignia seems to indicate III Gruppe to me.

Actually I would normally not write in a thread like this, but certain comments are a little naive, and most likely written because the writers know only part of the picture. Give this also some thought, there where plenty put to the choice concentration camp or front line service. Give that some thought now, with all the hind sight we have. How you would have choosen in that situation and only knowing rumors what is going on in those camps?
Also there where more than enough that didn´t give a hoot about the political big wigs, but where there where they where, because they hoped so to protect their families and homes. That they where misfortunate to be fighting on the side of a cruel system is what we know now, but when you are given only the choice certain death, and high risk of death which would you choose? That there where also exceptions that knew full well what was going on, and believed that was right so is also known, but these are also more the nut jobs. I am just trying to say look at the individuals and don´t throw all in the same pot. As that is how many thought during the fourties, we should know better now.

Well the reference to the photo said:

Bf 109 E 4 "White 5" of 3rd Gruppe/JG 53 (53rd Fighter wing, possibly based in Guernsey), shot down over Margate, Kent on 6th September 1940. The pilot was Unteroffizier Schulte and the aircraft crash landed near Manston airfield.

I completely agree.

I was pointing out the Wehrmacht may have had a compulsory oath to Hitler as leader but nothing else. It was just part of the formality of joining or being conscripted. Everyone swore the oath whether they truly believed in Hitler or not.

On the other hand the Waffen SS did require a genuine commitment to National Socialist beliefs.

I sat threw nine hours of murder watching Shoah and I've seen countless other Docs. on the subject, gasoline injected into hearts for a simple test of endurance on how long a man can survive with fuel in his system, human skin covers on chairs in offices etc, I'm no idiot. These are the Aribert Heim's the Himler's and others who follow their doctron. Psychopaths.

What I'm saying is you can't put all of the Germans who fought in WWII into the group in the box above. I can just see Hans-Joachim Marseille pull up to Auschwitz in his little Kupple wagon and say..Hey we're behind schedual, fire up some more ovens! That last part is sarcasm.

This is actually a weird topic. It's like the Allies are trying to force shame on the people who like to fly German aeroplanes. "Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII" Guess who's going to look bad.

Ok for the sake of Socrates.

Lets start with what my grandfather said, a soldier in both Winter War and Continuation war. I was a kid during '80s and he told me a war story to which I replied "I would had never done it", eyes blinking innocently. My grandfather was a very good man, maybe the best man I know, and he never showed signs of frown or anger at me except two times. This time he was frowny and serious even and said "none who were not there can never understand". Is it a cliche?

No. It is a simple truth. Or do you imagine you can know something after reading books, watching documents and movies? Pardon me, gentlemen, when I say it is very naive to begin to judge common people and their actions in those mad times. You have exactly as much clue how life was in those sick times as you have clue about how sex with a woman is if you haven't ever experienced it. That is you have some clue and can say "oh WW2, sick nazies" without ever being there, as you can say "oh sex is wonderful" without ever even experiencing it. So are you wrong? No, you are right in both cases. But still I can say you don't understand how it is/was because you never experienced it. You have only been educated to imagine how it is/was.

Long story? No, the questions posed to start this thread are not trivial ones. They are about morals/ethics, which is very complex question. I think maybe 99% of you don't even understand the basics of those well enough to discuss anything as complex as WW2 ethics/morals. And no offence meant. And even if you knew, you would not be able to discuss anything good because you would still miss the actual first hand understanding how things was. Like you can't discuss sex good if you haven't ever experienced anything else than solo masturbation.

Conclusions: All this doesn't mean you are stupids and should stop discussing things you don't understand. It means keep discussing and try to understand as much as you can and never let it happen again. That is what you people can do. If you want.


SPOILER ALERT BELOW. DON'T READ IT BEFORE THINKING WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN SO FAR







Edit: See? My grandfather knew I would had done it, whatever it was, had I been there. Exactly in the same way you would had done all the same things what common people did in those sick times. If you were English, you would had done what English men did. If you were German, you would had done what German men did. If you were Russian, you would had done what Russian men did. Talk about ethics. Or jump back to conclusions.

And even today, men do what they are told to do, nothing has changed in the long history of humans. If the ruling party takes it's country to war, then there are few options for the people, both civilian and military.:grin: