Andy is a lot like chicken little running around flapping his scrawny arms , screaming the sky is falling the sky is falling , Egad the Average temp is .5 a degree different than it was 12 years ago on this day !!!! EEEEAAAAAGGGH !!! RUN RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIFE !!!! and then he tries to back it up with a lot of Niles Crane snobbery .

SlipBall, you give no source for your posting. Where is it from?

In any case, this quotes Kevin Trenberth, head of the Climate Analysis Section at the USA National Center for Atmospheric Research. You might like to see what he had to say about the recent upsurge in extreme tornado activity in the US:

http://www.joplinglobe.com/topstorie...y-of-tornadoes

See?

So let me see if I understand you correctly..

Your saying the reason un-wed mothers and abortion rates have not dropped to zero since the 80s is because they are immaculate conceptions?

Interesting? And I thought you didn't belive in god? ;)

What? Is that supposed to mean something?

Yes people are STILL having un-protected sex.. Even though you claim people adjusted life style based on scientific studies

While the rest of us were getting laid in the 80's and 90's , andy was up late at night spanking it to science magazines and his life size al gore poster .Also he was coming up with plans to elude the bullies who were going to chase him home from school .

Just a quick question Slipball. Who do you work for? ie what industry.

And people are still becoming infected with HIV as a consequence. Fortunately, enough people in the groups most at risk took notice of the warnings, at least in the developed world. Anyway, at no time were scientists suggesting that "we would all be DEAD due to AIDS by now". They detected a new disease, found out how it was transmitted, and gave the best advice available on how to counter it. Sadly, not everyone took notice, and some have paid the consequences.

Anyway, which other branches of science are controlled by the shape-shifting lizards? You still haven't told us...

Roflmao! Yes. Sometimes when you catch a fish and place it in your bucket, it is best to put it out of its misery with a swift blow to the head.:grin:

You lefties aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. You are going about it all in the wrong way and using the wrong fear motivator.

Dump the "Green" label which will never be separated from the sandal wearing pony-tailed, latte sipper image.

Take a clue from the only other alternative energy market, the far rightwing bunker "survivalist" crowd.

If you and all your buddies in the blogosphere started an "American Independence" movement that didn't whine about saving polar bears and instead touting saving money on energy so to better afford luxury polar bear hunting safari's, you would probably make more headway.

Yeah I know it's not an American issue, but start it here anyway.

But your point your missing here is the scientist took the 'data points' back in the 80s and projected it to the future and said we would all be dead due to AIDS by now..

That is the problem with a lot of scientific models..

They don't allays take into account all the variables..

Especially the ones that can cancel one another..

And as time goes by they learn more, such that they may even include another variable

Which explains how the scientist were saying ICE AGE in the 70s and 80s and than switched to GLOBAL WARMING in the late 80s and 90s

You have to give them some credit thought

In that the scientist felt pretty silly after that 180

So now they call it CLIMATE CHANGE that way their A is covered and they can take credit for either direction the temps go

hahahahahaha you nerdly little dork . Go change your contacts .. Here's a tissue I guess I hit a nerve with that last comment .

Your second paragraph describes andy to a T

Yikes.. I thought the left were the moderate ones willing to listen to all points of view?

Yes , they are so superior and have astounding intellect .

I've just outlined a way to turn American right wing rednecks into environmentalists.

I demand that my brilliance be recognized.

The fish is dead and is now starting to smell really bad.

Turd

It's kind of ironic that our friend andy - while being uber-green and against "Big Oil" , is using this WW2 sim. Which simulates battles between greenhouse gas spewing aircraft. Unless of course they were electric powered Aircraft . Were they andy ? Electric powered ?Hypocrit much ? You might as well go outside right now and burn a plastic bag .

Maybe he thinks they are gliders? ;) That big spinny thing on the front is just for looks! ;)

...Thick as two short planks...

oooo that cuts so deep ...Don't you have some harry potter convention to be at ?

Ah Andy.. Im sorry, been ribbin ya, but just in good fun

Everything in the world is about balance..

Too much of a good thing is not a good thing..

Which is why us red necks need librals! We need balance!

Without it our see-saw would be no fun!

The good news is most libs are over weight, thus we only need a few on the other side of the see-saw to offset our side! ;)

I've been insulted in many ways in this thread, but that is totally beyond the pale. Call me a liberal again and I'll hunt you down and feed you through my tree shredder. :-P

S! ;)

He prefers the word progressive .If it wasn't for guys like him I'd have no fun on this forum .;)

Well we seem to have lost 5./JG27.Farber along the way, but his thread will be studied for years to come.:grin:

...By historians writing on the part played by Fox and the like in the decline of the United States. Whole books will be written on 'the cult of ignorance' and the worship of stupidity. In my anthropological studies I've come across a few weird religions, but I've never seen imbecility personified as a God before...

Ha ha...you surprise me, just when I thought AoA had made some head way with you.:grin:

For any unaligned, unconvinced, or open minded people who may still be reading this thread and trying to make sense of the competing claims here is a useful website that gives the current scientific position.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

Answers to some claims made in this thread:

Positives and negatives of global warming
http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...termediate.htm

Is there a scientific consensus on global warming?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...-consensus.htm

What do the 'Climategate' hacked CRU emails tell us?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/Clim...ils-hacked.htm

Is CO2 a pollutant?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant.htm

Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/volc...termediate.htm

Solar activity & climate: is the sun causing global warming?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/sola...al-warming.htm

What does past climate change tell us about global warming?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/clim...arm-period.htm

Global cooling - Is global warming still happening?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...termediate.htm

Answers to 173 questions/claims on climate
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

maybe people should just google themselves instead of the spin doctor approach pointing them to a certain website with a certain agenda. I see one of my fellow alma mater is a contributor. Go UC Davis Aggies! Biggest joke of a school ever.

Don't try to confuse them with facts, kendo65, their mind is made up...

There have been a few links to climate-skeptic sites. Thought I'd provide some balance.

The 'certain agenda' you refer to is a fairly clear and balanced summary of the current scientific consensus. One of the problems in all this is that the ordinary man in the street sees an array of competing voices making what seem like sound arguments on either side of the issue and has no way of deciding for himself who is right. That site gives the 'consensus position'.

Are there opposing voices? Yes, but they're in the minority, though the casual observer wouldn't necessarily know that.

Sure. 'consensus opinion', ordinary man in the street...'no way of deciding for himself who is right'. so go to 'this' website because 'this' website will get your head straight. got it. I'm not knocking your opinion. But what you wrote and did by linking to a single "skeptical" website is spin in every sense of the word. I guess I shouldn't worry about it. The ordinary man has figured it out by now. He is pretty smart guy.;)

I count myself as one of the 'ordinary men in the street'. The vast majority of us don't have the technical training or knowledge to examine the complex evidence for ourselves and make a judgement. So what we get is an array of experts with conflicting opinions and no way of deciding who is right.

That site is pretty balanced and gives a good summary of the mainstream scientific position. It tries to explain why certain skeptical arguments are wrong or misleading.

I don't expect it will sway those who are committed to their point of view, but I wanted to show that there are sound arguments against many of the viewpoints expressed in this thread.

Anyway, Andy has been banned. I've no intention of staying around trying to fill the 'resident leftie punchbag' role.

:rolleyes: Go post on another forum,please.

Best Regards,
MB_Moron.

It doesn't matter what these sceptics and luddites think. What is happening is that the USA now knows how much business is involved in making renewable energy products and how they can get off middle eastern oil. The USA invests more in it than any other country, it makes business sense.

Okay, that is fine. You have a right to your opinion.

Well Western Australia's doing it's best to stop global warming! We've started granting mining permits for Uranium.

It's been banned up until now. Which was a pitty because my Dad went off prospecting for Uranium in the 60's, Hey I could have been rich!! :(

I think our market will be China and India! Remember the Atom is your friend!!!

Whats your Government doing? ;)

Taxing us dry and giving it to bankers... :(

+1

These types of attitudes are why global warming supporters are always going to be looked upon with suspicion by conservatives.

"We are the enlightened, everyone else is a moron."

Your side loses from the beginning by coming off as elitist "Philosopher Kings"

I think ours is doing that too! Sure to help! Remeber it's all part of the Plan! ;)

not much of a market in japan anymore though ...

All said.

:cool:

man, were you ever mislead :rolleyes: :-P

so kendo posting a bunch of links is biased, but posting anything that supports the claim that climate change is neither happening nor caused of influenced by human activity isn't biased?

love that.

seems positions and opinions are entrenched by, predominantly, political delineation rather than any understanding, appreciation or desire to address the question at hand. sad that a scientific proposition and investigation is laid to one side by a desire to beat each other with liberal panty-sniffer/right wing headcase sticks.

andy got trolled hard in this thread, mostly with the lefty stick but also by the climate change denial schtick and, in honesty, lost it. but he wasn't the only one throwing insults around. to say that "I thought the left were the moderate ones willing to listen to all points of view" is somewhat insulting really, and forgets the left's long love of simply lining up it's enemies and shooting/decapitating/deporting them. we can be just as savage, brutal and blunt as the right, we're all people after all. but that comment also carries the implication that the right don't have to be reasonable and listen to all points of view, which to be fair is usually borne out by observation.

Liberals are very tolerant and fully support free speech as long as you agree with everything they say . The moment you disagree , you must be a faux news watcher , an ignoramus , a Luddite , a Glenn Beck fan etc . Liberals are all about preventing hate speech for all of those who agree with them . Whoever doesn't agree with them is hated to the extreme .The second they feel cornered it all turns to insults and hatred .I see it all over the Internet each day . Just check out the comments on msn newsvine for a prime example .Andy is not unusual , he's their norm. Most lefties are philosopher kings as was stated earlier and love to force their superior views on all of the under informed Luddites and imbeciles . Bunch of Fraser crane wannabes .

At least Kendo made his point respectfully , no one is denying anyone their viewpoint . The way Andy went about it was in a very condescending tone like he was über intelligent and anyone who dared disagree was a faux news watching moron . He was BEGGING to be belittled .

I haven't watched tv in years.

Lol, Galway. It's endlessly fascinating. Climate change denial=the white mans new burden!:grin:

I remember Y2K also! The sky was falling then to.

And the prevailing thought about this is we don't care. Let it get warmer or cooler. Its caller winter and summer. Relax. The world isn't ending yet. But it will. Eventually all things will end but you the posters here won't witness it.

Bottom line is once Iran /Isreal go at it within the next couple /few years climate change will be the least of our worries .

Agreed.

I should say I am more concerned about why my lawnmower didn't start yesterday than global warming. It gives me more trouble than the climate ever will.

Bingo! ;)

Because my work is at sea, the ever changing weather has always fascinated me. I was there to see the height of the warming trend, and its effects on my bottom line. About four years ago, I began to notice an opposite direction in the weather. You may think I a nut, but I firmly believe I will see an ice age begin in my lifetime. Unlike warming, cooling can take hold in the span of a decade. The very best minds on the study of the suns activity, have warned governments, ice age by 2030...you've been warned!!:grin:

I think there is one point that hasn't been put in this debate (is it really like that grown ppl debate? :evil:)

''GLOBAL Warming'' as most people know it is really kind of a myth. It is some kind of trend launched in the end of the 90s.
The view people will get from it is also biased depending on where you live. Seems that for a lot of americans Al Gore is the guy that discovered it (that arrivist xxxx ?:confused:) for exemple.

We (we as in us/the others/you/me/zombie media ppl...) mostly hear of global warming in documentaries often presenting it on a really, really, really mystical point of view (immensity, eternity, human's spirit, superior power, etc), or in (sometimes silly) ecologists speaking like they live in magical world or the opposite, speeches denying it with only the speaker's verve to back its opinion:-P :eek:

Well, enough of my personal opinion of what's wrong with our short-sighted view of reality.

The fact is Global warming will not be that much global. In some places the climate will be hot and more dry (in desert areas for exemple) and in other places you'll get a longer cold season.


My point is that yeah, global warming is xxxxxxxxx. But climate change is definitely not.
We are living it dudes, only a blind man could not see some slight but visible changes in the course of the seasons, the rhythm of the storms, the plant pollinization(not sure its the right english word=> plants sputting yellow things that make you sneeze) and the areas these plants are growing.

Are we responsible of it ? We don't know actually. But we surely don't help ;)
And all the speeches for/against global warming hide the real big deal: we should prepare for climate changes whether or not we are responsible of it.

I personnaly think Europe will live a huge change in the course of the seasons in a close future. Jet stream going off its path and stuff...Seems already that nothing is making a buffer between hot air from africa and cold air from siberia.

:)

[edit] Wow, didn't think i wrote so much :p Thanks for those who read me ! [/edit]

I wouldn't argue that there is climate change. But what is said will happen will happen without any help from earths inhabitants. It will do what its going to do and there's nothing you can do. We can't prevent its eventual end no more than we can prevent a huge asteroid hitting earth.

That's about right Atag Dog , it's going to happen like it always has and no amount of taxation is going to affect it whatsoever .

Couldn't agree more.

RedToo.

+1 ;)

+1 for Doc

I agree too. If you put the elements of the periodic table into a jar of varying proportions and apply heat, light, absence of heat, light, you get matter transformation. The earth, a jar. Of course, a true-to-the-core atheist will claim to understand this. Yet, one can claim to be an atheist and at the same time engage in non-physical abstraction processes about the climate? Talk about a split. If you claim to be an atheist and claim to understand science, then logically, you really shouldn’t give a rats about climate change, because you understand that you are simply a bio-bag of chemicals interacting in a bigger jar of other chemicals and that your “life” is simply a change in velocity of various chemical processes in your local scope and “climate change” is manifestion of the change in the velocity of the chemical processes relative to the jar. Unless you are not really an atheist? Maybe instead, you are a vile, despicable scammer with another agenda? This is the likely reality imo and experience and why I pass judgement. That is, to conquer the non-physical elements of money, power, sex...etc during your carbon based “life” cycle. So, here come the indoctrination techniques from the marxist\communist\eco-facist\phd scammers en masse over decades as catalyst to transform certian non-physical elements of the jar to enhance their own life cycle. There really isn’t such thing as a real atheist. Anytime you hear non-suicidal person tell you he is an atheist, ask him to prove it by making high velocity matter transformation of himself. It’s not going to happen. But really, that is the only way you can tell if he is a true-to-the-core atheist. So, they don’t actually exist. It is simply another scammer doing his/her thing. Atheism, a scam, just as climate change is a scam, just as a “scam” is another non-physical element in the jar. So, how did they get in the jar? How do you get the scam out of the jar? You don’t unless you are willing to become a real true-to-core atheist and are willing to light yourself on fire right now, this second to prove it. Go get a match. Bye-bye. See, just a theory. However, maybe some non-physical “god” and/or “devil” put the non-physical elements in the jar and that is what keeps you from engaging in high velocity matter transformation? Yes, that is why there are the religions of the jar, in case you were wondering. Maybe now you understand why this debate in the non-physical realm will never end. It is good against evil, god verses the devil, ...etc. It’s the physical and non-phyical elements of the jar in reaction as long as heat/light is applied and removed relative to the jar. And what gives us heat and light??? The sun, baby. The egyptians, not so dumb. Funny, they didn’t choose a tree, a polar bear, or a glacier for a god. No, they were logical. Not like your modern day eco-facist or your al gore types who choose a religion of greed, or your marxist types who choose a religion of theft.

Deep... Just cos Im a swirling bag of chemicals doesnt mean I want to harm the enviroment or set myself on fire though...

This just in, only way to be an atheist (ie. have no belief in God) is to commit suicide.

Wow.

:rolleyes:

Fixed that for ya! ;)

Phew, MadBlaster. Glad you put it this way. I'm convinced. I used to think increasing global warming was due to increasing gun control. Thanks for putting me in the picture on this. S!

Logically bible belt Christians would not bother reading this thread as they have been promised a shiny new replacement planet after they break this one :D

Global warming is only of interest to atheists (as well as muslims, jews, various Asian religions, druidics, the wicca people, new agers and members of various non-approved christian cults like Catholicism) as they are stuck with this one.

but it makes us feel better to think that we can be masters of our fate. simple as that really.


madblaster, how is atheism a scam?

is there an atheist organisation that asks for a tithe in return for a promise of...well, anything? the core of atheism, as i see it, is that the notions of good and evil lie entirely in the physical realm and control of man, not in any abstract entity such as god or the devil. don't try and make out that being god-less means you have no grasp of ethics. if anything it gives a greater appreciation of why you should do the right thing - because it's the right thing to do, not because you get an after-life reward.

It's going to do what it do. And there isn't anything man can do to slow it down even a millisecond.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4dhvm9ivGQ

1) “is there an atheist organisation that asks for a tithe in return for a promise of...well, anything?”
There are all kinds of scams. Apparently, money for false promise is on your “A” list. What does that say about you? I take your view as no faith in the ordinary man because he is a sucker for organized religion. Maybe the scam of the so called “atheist organization” is to close your mind to order and open your mind to chaos and destruction? Gee, I wonder why they would want to do that?

2) “the core of atheism, as i see it, is that the notions of good and evil lie entirely in the physical realm and control of man, not in any abstract entity such as god or the devil.”
I would say god and devil are analogous to good and evil. You’ve heard the term “methphor”. I would say none of these lie in the control of man. For example, a free man makes a choice. He may percieve it to be good choice, while another man observing may percieve it to be a bad choice. This is how wars start. If one man kills the other man because of his choice, the man that lives gets to decide who is “right”. You know the cliches, “only the strong survive” as “evolution in a nutshell”. The inate ability to pass judgment on another is part of evolution of the species. So, your definition of aithest can not be correct. Man can not control good and evil. They must be in conflict in order for man to evolve. The question I have, why is the ability to pass judgement inate? How did that get in the jar? Do you see it in the DNA molecule? I don’t think so. It seems to exist in the non-physical realm. It seems to be an ability developed and changing over a life cycle.

3) “don't try and make out that being god-less means you have no grasp of ethics”
Again, how did your atheist acquire ethics? What is the context? He must have first developed an ability somehow to abstract/conceptualize the notions of good and evil in order to become ethical?

Jmho, I think your definition of atheist needs some work. I stand by my veiw that there is no such thing as a real atheist. It’s a sales pitch to a scam. See atheist -> karlmarx -> communist manifesto -> steal everything.

This has never been a debate about the science.

however there is probably also too much focus on the political and religious issues.

Yeah politicians in general, whether fascist or communist, liberal or conservative, are all total idiots and most organised religions are inherently evil and all about power (regardless if we are talking pre-reformation Catholicism, modern Islam, TV evangelists or right wing American fundamentalism).

However the efforts of the politico's and religious nutters of the world pale in comparison to the machieviallian manipulations of large corporations.

You only have to look at Northrop Grumman to see that.

preeeeetty much

like i say, makes us feel better to do something. like the band playing on sort of thing.
i made no such comment about "false promises". tithes taken by the church go to good causes, if for nothing else than to maintain the fabric of often ancient buildings and often for charitable activities. the promise of something is implicit and goes back to the time of selling graces, but i make no assertion that is a false promise. i may not believe in it, but that makes it no less real to some people.

to say that atheists have "closed their minds to order and opened them to chaos and destruction" is kind of wonderful. do you believe in other gods, or just yours?
what
so the guy who commits evil can declare himself to be right.... and he is? what?

the non-physical realm has nothing to do with human consciousness, mainly because *ta-da* human consciousness is a function of the physical brain. learn to neurobiology. next you'll be trotting out descartes and his attempts to prove the existence of god. as to judgement, it's one of those innate qualities that makes us human, that we develop through experience and what we learn of the world and it's inhabitants. of course it changes over a life cycle. if nothing was learned then we'd still be whacking the crap out of each other with the jaws of sheep.

oh and they aren't cliches, but strength can either be physical or mental. we prevailed over the neanderthal, according to theory, because we were smarter not bigger.
no, not necessary at all. i set fire to your house. you don't like it. would i like it if it's done to me? no, then it's bad. if this same process applies or can be said to apply to each reasonable person (ie not sadists, masochists, the unhinged) then it applies as either good or bad. i'm putting this in very simplified terms because... well frankly there's a 5,000 word essay on this, easy.
well it was a definition pitched at a certain level, and intended as a mini-definition to save time, typing and refinement. it's no sales pitch though, it's not selling anything.

if you consider wealth redistribution and societal equality to be "steal everything" then you massively misunderstand the ideals of marxism, to such an extent that you should either read up on it or cease commenting on it. you simply cannot steal what you own part of. that communism failed in all it's incarnations is mostly due to human nature, apparently we can't really act in a truly altruistic way for ever, require carrots to put in the best effort with our talents and generally foul things up through greed and avarice. but then that apparently applies in all political systems.


i would suggest that your invitation to atheists to kill themselves actually constitutes a hate crime though. if i told all christians/muslims/jews/hindus/worshippers of his noodly-appendagedness to kill themselves i would expect criminal sanctions to follow shortly after.

amen.

without a hint of irony as well, in all honesty.

This is why marxism is a fundamentally flawed system. We work to better our lives. No one will put the effort into performing exceptionally when there is no reward above performing adequately.

Everyone is dragged down, not up.

quote:
“i made no such comment about "false promises". tithes taken by the church go to good causes, if for nothing else than to maintain the fabric of often ancient buildings and often for charitable activities. the promise of something is implicit and goes back to the time of selling graces, but i make no assertion that is a false promise. i may not believe in it, but that makes it no less real to some people.”

Your exact words “in return for a promise of...well, anything?” You seem confused by your own words. If a promise is broken, if it doesn’t materialize, if it doesn’t stay true to form, if it promises nothing, I think it fair to characterize it to be “false”. Get it? Then you say exactly this, “i may not believe in it, but that makes it no less real to some people.” I will parse this. “I may not believe in it” suggests to me you believe the promise to be “false” because if you believed in it, it would be “true” and you would believe in it instead of qualify it as “may not”. Then you say “some people”. Now maybe you should go look at your “good guy” self in the mirror and ask, “did I just pass judgement?” I would say you did. It’s okay. I do it all the time.

quote:
“to say that atheists have "closed their minds to order and opened them to chaos and destruction" is kind of wonderful. do you believe in other gods, or just yours?”
I’m comfortable in my skin. What else is there to say? If you think chaos and destruction is “kind of wonderful”? Whatever. It’s your skin. We now know where you stand.

quote:
“the non-physical realm has nothing to do with human consciousness, mainly because *ta-da* human consciousness is a function of the physical brain. learn to neurobiology. next you'll be trotting out descartes and his attempts to prove the existence of god. as to judgement, it's one of those innate qualities that makes us human, that we develop through experience and what we learn of the world and it's inhabitants. of course it changes over a life cycle. if nothing was learned then we'd still be whacking the crap out of each other with the jaws of sheep.”

Diving through the insults, a “function”. Okay, the neuro process the brain goes through to form a non-physical/intangible called an “idea”. Nothing physically relevant about that unless it materializes into something that can be perceived through our senses. I just had another idea, but I won’t mention it here. So it won’t materialize as insult. For you to guess or to remain irrelevant. It’s also wonderful how you equate human consciousness to neurobiology. I think those phds are still working on it. No brain transplants yet. But keep sending them your monies or try to steal ours because they are the smart guys with all the answers about how your brain works. In the meantime, you’ll have to stick with the indoctrintation techniques you were taught.

quote:
“oh and they aren't cliches”
as in the phrase is common and subject to overuse in the vernacular to lose meaning, imo.

quote:
“no, not necessary at all. i set fire to your house. you don't like it. would i like it if it's done to me? no, then it's bad. if this same process applies or can be said to apply to each reasonable person (ie not sadists, masochists, the unhinged) then it applies as either good or bad. i'm putting this in very simplified terms because... well frankly there's a 5,000 word essay on this, easy.”

Again, you make the circular argument. A common theme. What is “reasonable”. What is the context for “reasonable”. Imo, “good” and “bad” are the building blocks to “reasonable” and “ethical”. No 5000 word essay necessary. Keep using your neurobiology to figure your way out of the circle. How about, “think outside the box”. Get it? Does that qualify as a cliche in your opinion?

quote:
if you consider wealth redistribution and societal equality to be "steal everything" then you massively misunderstand the ideals of marxism, to such an extent that you should either read up on it or cease commenting on it. you simply cannot steal what you own part of. that communism failed in all it's incarnations is mostly due to human nature, apparently we can't really act in a truly altruistic way for ever, require carrots to put in the best effort with our talents and generally foul things up through greed and avarice. but then that apparently applies in all political systems.

I guess your not a farmer. The war for communism hasn’t ended. It has taken the guise of man-made global warming. “Atheism” is recruiting tool, a sales pitch. The ordinary man is aware. Your attempts to wrap it up in higher purpose sugar, epic fail.

quote:
i would suggest that your invitation to atheists to kill themselves actually constitutes a hate crime though. if i told all christians/muslims/jews/hindus/worshippers of his noodly-appendagedness to kill themselves i would expect criminal sanctions to follow shortly after.

If I don’t believe they exist, then how can I believe they can kill themselves? Are you suggesting thought crime? Should my neurobiology be arrested? How do you do that? Do you want to murder me? At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised in the least! You really underestimate yourself if you believe in a so called atheism. Anyway, my last words. It was fun. I’m out. :grin:

that's a fundamental misunderstanding of marxism. the theory at least. spot on with how it is implemented though. ideally some are dragged down, but a larger number - as the wealth tends to be distributed as a pyramid rich and few at the top, poor but many at the bottom - are (meant to be) dragged up. funny thing is it tends to be the middle class that espouses marxism, with the richer and poorer tending to have it down as being a liberal panty sniffing taxation fest.

i think i'm remembering this story right, paraphrasing heavily though - when watching a train load up with passengers, marx and a companion went past the first class carriage, and saw the luxury and comfort these few were afforded. they pass second class to see old women perching uncomfortably on wooden benches in the busy carriage. they come to third class and watch as people are loaded into bare cattle carriages. his companion turned to marx and said
"when the revolution comes we'll make those pigs travel third class with the rest of us" (not actual pigs of course)
"no, comrade, you misunderstand - when the revolution comes we'll all travel first class"


oh god, you've made a mess of this madblaster.

quote:
“i made no such comment about "false promises". tithes taken by the church go to good causes, if for nothing else than to maintain the fabric of often ancient buildings and often for charitable activities. the promise of something is implicit and goes back to the time of selling graces, but i make no assertion that is a false promise. i may not believe in it, but that makes it no less real to some people.”
by a promise of anything i meant, quite literally, anything. 72 virgins, 10,000 less years in purgatory, your own swimming pool. anything. i don't believe it so i don't get it, but the person paying the tithe or doing the penance may well receive such graces as dictated by their faith, for all I or anyone else knows. some people believe, some people don't. you're trying to start an argument with your own misunderstanding, as i'm not judging anything or anyone there. i always chuckle when the thing of "judge not lest ye be judged" is used one sidedly though. that and the casting of stones. anyway, the point was that atheism asks nothing from those who believe it, it takes nothing nor offers anything in return which it does not deliver - so how can it be a scam.

quote:
“to say that atheists have "closed their minds to order and opened them to chaos and destruction" is kind of wonderful. do you believe in other gods, or just yours?”
no, not the "chaos and destruction" bit being wonderful - although out of chaos arises order, out of destruction arises new life - it's the sheer brass neck to say that atheists rejoice in it. it's a sort of mix of sarcasm and "oh wow, do they mean that or am i reading it wrong". there's plenty to say - do you believe your god to be the one true god, and by extension that the many millions (billions) that believe otherwise are wrong?

quote:
“the non-physical realm has nothing to do with human consciousness, mainly because *ta-da* human consciousness is a function of the physical brain. learn to neurobiology. next you'll be trotting out descartes and his attempts to prove the existence of god. as to judgement, it's one of those innate qualities that makes us human, that we develop through experience and what we learn of the world and it's inhabitants. of course it changes over a life cycle. if nothing was learned then we'd still be whacking the crap out of each other with the jaws of sheep.”
what insults? as current tech stands we can only highlight areas of activity associated with certain activities - movement, memory, language and the like - but that's not to say that specific thought processes (what am i eating for lunch today?) cannot be similarly mapped out once scanning techniques are improved. to say an idea is intangible and non-physical is to show an ignorance of neurobiology, because things like "i want to move the mouse cursor left" have already been successfully mapped and used to develop a means for people to communicate despite massive physical or neurological trauma destroying their physical capacity. a brain transplant? in what respect or for what function would you do that? it's not swapping out a hard drive. each brains structure has been altered by that person's life experiences, even at the basic level of understanding that we have now it isn't a muscle or filtration organ that can be transplanted.

btw, loving the hint of craziness you're throwing in at the end there "indoctrination techniques" *girlish giggle* really? i mean really?

quote:
“oh and they aren't cliches”
as in commonly used because they are common in life. there's a reason they are cliches. the meaning is still there.

quote:
“no, not necessary at all. i set fire to your house. you don't like it. would i like it if it's done to me? no, then it's bad. if this same process applies or can be said to apply to each reasonable person (ie not sadists, masochists, the unhinged) then it applies as either good or bad. i'm putting this in very simplified terms because... well frankly there's a 5,000 word essay on this, easy.”
circular argument? what now?
i state what is reasonable. i'll try again - someone acting without malice or overt charity, without cross purposes, without a motivation that they would deny others, with fairness. in effect, an average person. good and bad are more easily classified as harm or gain, within this framework and seeing as you're all hung up on good and bad. there's also an element of consensus. a reasonable person would want no harm to come to them but would want gains. a reasonable person would also not deny others this, as to deny others could be to deny themselves.

think outside the box is hackneyed meeting speak, and perfect for bullsh*t bingo. see also "blue sky thinking"

quote:
if you consider wealth redistribution and societal equality to be "steal everything" then you massively misunderstand the ideals of marxism, to such an extent that you should either read up on it or cease commenting on it. you simply cannot steal what you own part of. that communism failed in all it's incarnations is mostly due to human nature, apparently we can't really act in a truly altruistic way for ever, require carrots to put in the best effort with our talents and generally foul things up through greed and avarice. but then that apparently applies in all political systems.

you're great. i mean really - this is just brilliant.

quote:
i would suggest that your invitation to atheists to kill themselves actually constitutes a hate crime though. if i told all christians/muslims/jews/hindus/worshippers of his noodly-appendagedness to kill themselves i would expect criminal sanctions to follow shortly after.

no, you typed it out on an internet forum. that's not a thought crime, it's just an offensive sentiment to express publicly.

there's a lot of hate in you, which i find sad really. why do you have so much hate in your soul? maybe we should talk about it, see what you're repressing and try to work out a way to make you better.

quote:
"oh god, you've made a mess of this madblaster."

Now we are getting somewhere. "Well, are you ready to go?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcXWE-edyL0 :)

i was referring to your multi-quoting of my post. you need to make the different bits distinct. as for the blasphemy, that's a verbal/textual tic. better than saying "oh f***", but not as good as saying "oh my word" if discussing something with someone liable to completely ignore the entire argument and instead nit pick about three little letters. also known as trolling.

read the rest of the post, it's basic courtesy.

Ok, it's been read and judged. Now I'm off to see the wizard. Have a good day dude.;)

Be warned Titus. Ye have been judged!

woeful, truly woeful.
quite.

In UK the richest 1% control a quarter of the total wealth.
69% of land is owned by 0.3 % of the population.
In 1997 the Uk's thousand richest held wealth of £99 billion; in 2010 this had risen to £336 billion.

In both USA and UK over the last 30 years real wages have declined - a direct consequence of neoliberal economics with ever-increasing globalisation and outsourcing of jobs. This decline in real wages was the main reason for the massive expansion in credit needed by ordinary families to sustain their standard of living. We saw how that ended in 2008.

Forget your socialist and Marxist bogeymen. Your real worry should be the current version of capitalism that is the most efficient means ever devised of transferring wealth from the middle and lower classes to the already rich.

As the American and European middle classes continue to see their standard of living eroded, and as we edge closer to the seemingly inevitable collapse of the Euro maybe you should remind yourself that it wasn't Marxism or socialism that created this mess.

edit: and the atheists didn't have too much to do with it either.. ;)

and I'll just point out that I don't consider myself to be either a socialist, Marxist or athiest

It's basically a matter of how bad someone wants to be wealthy. Many inspiring stories out there, people get great ideas and work hard to fulfill the dream...the mess you speak of is result of very large governments and the entitlement payouts for all those gov. worker retirees, and other hand outs IMHO

Tell that to someone in Greece at the moment, or one of the 50% of Spanish youth who find themselves without jobs, or the thousands in Ireland who have had to emigrate.

The current mess is the result of the collapse of the financial system in 2008.

I already was of this opinion but this thread has just reinforced it. It seems to me that the right-wing belief system is just a massive self-reinforcing pattern of denial. When reality (from global warming to crashed economies) threatens or invalidates their belief systems they retreat into ever more frantic denial and distortion, ending in a mad dash for bogeymen to pin the blame on. We've seem the full gamut in threads on this very forum over the last few weeks - everything from those mad corrupted scientists through the (usual suspect) Marxists and socialists, athiests, even homosexuals a few weeks back. Everything is fair game if it allows them to sustain their cosy cocoon of denial.

Anyway, I've said I wouldn't get involved in this and I have. This one's for you Andy.

I'm off now before the Klan arrive.

Where has it ever worked and why do some still think that it can?

Talking to climate change advocates long enough and the conversation goes from climate change to wealth inequity to income redistribution using climate change and the vehicle to achieve this change.

It's all spelled out in dozens of radicals books.

Look all around the world as all the civilizations that came and went before ours.

Ours too will meet the same fate as all the rest before ours and there isn't anything we can do collectively or alone.

Maybe, but I'd personally rest a little easier if you didn't seem so relaxed and accepting about our world's (imminent?) destruction.

(We all know it's going to end in December 2012 anyway - the Mayas and all that....)

This thread is more surreal then watching Glenn Beck.

The amound of conspiracy attributed to numerous orgnaisations and proffessions is worse then kennedy, moon landing and Area 51 combined.

given the current system and circumstances any alternative ideology can be attractive.

when edison suffered so many failed attempts at making lightbulbs, should he have given up because of them?

quite often it starts at it being an unwarranted eco-tax, bringing the whole political shebang into it. in no small part due to it largely being a right wing sentiment that anything that attempts to curtail pollution or perceived causes of climate change is "bad for business". quite how these changes would not require effort and therefore provide employment is something i have yet to see explained.

They need to make there own work/income till a better opportunity comes along, again hard work...

that's a wonderfully simplistic view.

That's how I did it since age 14 till today, only a couple of employers along the way.

Personally I would choose to blame the vegetarians.

My God, you're right! Hitler was a veggy. So was Gandhi and L. Ron Hubbard!!

Actually, it was Socialism.... all the PIIGS are Socialist countries and the home loan laws of the US socialist Government (Clinton Democrats) was the fuse.


The hilarious thing about the "wealth redistribution" part of "Climate Change" is... those bucks are going from the West to the poorer countries so they can build power stations. Yes! CO[sub]2[/sub] emmitting power stations.

Yep and so was Charles Darwin and Bob Dylan and Ozzie Osborne. Atheist Hippy splitters the lot of them.