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-   -   Friday Update, April 6, 2012 (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=30949)

Ploughman 04-09-2012 01:44 AM

I can't remember the last time I played this sim, and I'm a huge fan of it and flight sims in general, playing mostly off-line. Even when the patch arrives I can't really see myself playing it again any time soon, frankly, the game's been so broke for so long I'm out of the habit of playing it. That doesn't mean I wont' buy the next instalment, I certainly will to support development, but this sim's simply dropped of my 'available to do' menu.

Vengeanze 04-09-2012 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ploughman (Post 407020)
I can't remember the last time I played this sim, and I'm a huge fan of it and flight sims in general, playing mostly off-line. Even when the patch arrives I can't really see myself playing it again any time soon, frankly, the game's been so broke for so long I'm out of the habit of playing it. That doesn't mean I wont' buy the next instalment, I certainly will to support development, but this sim's simply dropped of my 'available to do' menu.

Exactly how I feel. I visit the forum like once a week...mostly because the shortcut is there in my browser. No news ever.
I will dust off my game when the patch arrives and hope for that loving feeling to return.

furbs 04-09-2012 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ploughman (Post 407020)
I can't remember the last time I played this sim, and I'm a huge fan of it and flight sims in general, playing mostly off-line. Even when the patch arrives I can't really see myself playing it again any time soon, frankly, the game's been so broke for so long I'm out of the habit of playing it. That doesn't mean I wont' buy the next instalment, I certainly will to support development, but this sim's simply dropped of my 'available to do' menu.

I would say that's how most people feel. Waiting, hoping.

150GCT_Veltro 04-09-2012 09:43 AM

Considering how is the England landscape, is a good news you guys have changed team for the russian landscape.

For the future, if we'll never have a future for the BoB, would be nice have a new English landscape rebuild from scratch, even if as a third party work.

Volksieg 04-09-2012 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 150GCT_Veltro (Post 407061)
Considering how is the England landscape, is a good news you guys have changed team for the russian landscape.

For the future, if we'll never have a future for the BoB, would be nice have a new English landscape rebuild from scratch, even if as a third party work.

I'll be honest..... Personally I see no problem with the English landscape. I prefer the french one on a purely aesthetic level but I think they have England pretty much nailed...... apart from the glaring omission of some of our major landmarks- St Paul's, Battersea Power Station....... lol (Are said landmarks being introduced in future?)

furbs 04-09-2012 10:19 AM

Colors are still not quite right, no way enough hedgerows, trees, roads and buildings dont blend with the landscape, apart from that its ok. :)

Volksieg 04-09-2012 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbs (Post 407075)
Colors are still not quite right, no way enough hedgerows, trees, roads and buildings dont blend with the landscape, apart from that its ok. :)

That is true..... We definitely need a lot more trees and hedges but, sadly, that would make the game a slideshow. :D

I did have to make a few adjustments to my monitor settings as, with it's factory pre-sets, the countryside was a pastel nightmare.... but yeah... I'm 'appy.

I think the buildings blend in ok.... but that's probably because I have bad eyesight and can't wear my glasses as they makes my facetrack go mental. Every cloud has a silver lining and all that. :D

I'm going to have a potter around Berkshire in the Tigermoth later this afternoon to see if Windsor Castle is modelled....... if not, I'll add that to the glaring omissions list. I did see a video of someone doing the tour of london flight and they said they were pleased to see Windsor Castle included..... though I'd have to be a bit concerned as to why Windsor Castle has suddenly found itself in London of all places. LMAO

=FI=Scott 04-09-2012 10:40 AM

personally I think that is too harsh,

I lived in the south east of England (Canterbury) for three years and go back about twice a year (wifes paternal family from there -Folkestone & Caple Le Ferne) and I think they have done a pretty decent job of the landscape. lots of people complained about the frequent haze but it is very common, even on sunny days. Perhaps the biggest ommission is hedgerows imo but also having lived in Canterbury no Cathedral is a bust. In RL it dominates the landscape for miles around.

Perhaps one of the most difficult RL factors to include is the fact that the sea can change so radically, and in short spaces of time. It can change not only in terms of swell but also colour, from deep blue to light green. I would pay to have that on its own in a sim.

kendo65 04-09-2012 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volksieg (Post 407077)
I did have to make a few adjustments to my monitor settings as, with it's factory pre-sets, the countryside was a pastel nightmare.... but yeah... I'm 'appy.

After hearing the 'calibrate your monitor' response a few times I bought a Spyder 4 Pro - no good, it's still a 'pastel nightmare' (I'll qualify that a bit - everything looks good from the ground and low-level, it's when you get a few thousand feet up that the pastel tones come in. The devs must surely be aware of this so I hope to see some more tuning of the lighting effects in the new patch to get it right)

I think France works better than England too. Everything seems too haphazard and unstructured in the COD English landscape. The strange thing is that they did a much better job with the old Open GL version (1946 DVD). Even videos of the pre-release demo version from the Russian games show (Igromir) look A LOT better than I see currently on my PC.

furbs 04-09-2012 11:11 AM

The preview on the DVD looked much better because of the more organic layout, hedgerows and much much better colours.
The terrain blended in much better with the towns and roads which leads to a more realistic feeling.

kendo65 04-09-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbs (Post 407082)
The preview on the DVD looked much better because of the more organic layout, hedgerows and much much better colours.
The terrain blended in much better with the towns and roads which leads to a more realistic feeling.

Agreed. I would LOVE to have something that looked like that.

They absolutely nailed the English countryside with that version.

kendo65 04-09-2012 11:45 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Ok - something strange.

I've wondered about this for a while. I saved a few of the videos from the Igromir show. One in particular showed a Hurricane flying over the English countryside.

I've just done a few screenshots from the video. This is the pre-release DX version of the game remember, but look at the terrain layout...

hedgerows, nice layout - looks very like the Open GL???

So what's going on?

Tree_UK 04-09-2012 11:49 AM

Thanks for the update blacksix, a couple of questions if i may,

Recently you stated that the patch was going to be released but a last minute glitch with decals prevented this happening, previously to this news there was another last minute problem although I cant for the life of me remember what it was, now we have another last minute issue with the particles. Are we to assume that the first last minute patch killer was fixed but it then affected the decals which when fixed affected the particles?

furbs 04-09-2012 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendo65 (Post 407097)
Ok - something strange.

I've wondered about this for a while. I saved a few of the videos from the Igromir show. One in particular showed a Hurricane flying over the English countryside.

I've just done a few screenshots from the video. This is the pre-release DX version of the game remember, but look at the terrain layout...

Hedgerows, nice layout - looks very like the Open GL???

So what's going on?


Not sure, but that looks a little different and better to what we have now...maybe just a test of a area?

philip.ed 04-09-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendo65 (Post 407097)
Ok - something strange.

I've wondered about this for a while. I saved a few of the videos from the Igromir show. One in particular showed a Hurricane flying over the English countryside.

I've just done a few screenshots from the video. This is the pre-release DX version of the game remember, but look at the terrain layout...

hedgerows, nice layout - looks very like the Open GL???

So what's going on?

They've certainly attempted it. I'm not sure what's changed, but the layout looks a lot better.

Currently, it's not a case that they need more trees: rather they need less trees and more hedgerows.

kendo65 04-09-2012 12:08 PM

Is it possible that what we want IS in there, but for whatever reason (probably performance or bugs) it was removed from the release version??

It's an intriguing possibility. I'd certainly feel very happy if I thought they could put it back to that as easily as they apparently changed it?

p.s. welcome back Tree

ChocsAway 04-09-2012 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 150GCT_Veltro (Post 407061)
Considering how is the England landscape, is a good news you guys have changed team for the russian landscape.

For the future, if we'll never have a future for the BoB, would be nice have a new English landscape rebuild from scratch, even if as a third party work.

I've only just started to re-visit the forum after a fairly long break.

It has been my opinion for a very long time that the devs 'hearts' have never been included within the development of CloD. I feel they are keen to now use it as a sketchpad for BOM and that CloD may never reach its true potential.

As for BOM...well I for one will not purchase it unless they one day ;) make a decent fist of CloD, ie make it at least playable without the micro-stutters and implement the myriad of missing (promised)features. Even then, I'm not sure I'd be interested in what is essentially (correct me if I'm wrong) a tarted up version of the original IL-2. That is a personal opinion though and I'd have much rather seen the much ignored Korean theatre given a fair crack of the whip this time around.

I'm still on board though and would love to see CloD working in all its glory, but I still have my doubts as I did 6 months ago. I personally feel we've been fed an awful lot of 'waffle' by the devs since the last beta patch was released and I just hope the graphics engine re-write will have been worth the wait. Then there will probably be an even longer wait for the missing features to be implemented...that is if they decide to go that route rather than concentrating all of their efforts on BOM.

The patience of many on here (not speaking for everyone) including me has been pushed to the limit and I think the devs have to do something positive soon to avoid a 'rats leaving a sinking ship' scenario (or did that happen already!). In the end I only want Clod to work as advertised and include the promised features that I payed for.

It has to be said that in a year plus since release very little has improved with the sim and although the 'avid' ;) fans (not going to use the 'fan***s' word :grin:) might disagree with me the devs have IMO deserved the amount of 'flak' that has been directed towards them from digruntled purchasers of CloD.

I hope that they are able to redeem themselves soon and go someway to making CloD into what they claimed it would be before we see BOM. :)

Luftwaffepilot 04-09-2012 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendo65 (Post 407097)
Ok - something strange.

I've wondered about this for a while. I saved a few of the videos from the Igromir show. One in particular showed a Hurricane flying over the English countryside.

I've just done a few screenshots from the video. This is the pre-release DX version of the game remember, but look at the terrain layout...

hedgerows, nice layout - looks very like the Open GL???

So what's going on?


I wondered that myself. The igromir videos, although mostly taken with a pocket calculator, looked much better, better colors, better contrast and better feel of Britain.

=FI=Scott 04-09-2012 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree_UK (Post 407098)
Thanks for the update blacksix, a couple of questions if i may,

Recently you stated that the patch was going to be released but a last minute glitch with decals prevented this happening, previously to this news there was another last minute problem although I cant for the life of me remember what it was, now we have another last minute issue with the particles. Are we to assume that the first last minute patch killer was fixed but it then affected the decals which when fixed affected the particles?

Asked 'while you were away' Answer- nothing....

Unless you have a ban fetish Tree, perhaps watching this play out is a better option. Otherwise perhaps Helgas House of Pain would suit better ?

ChocsAway 04-09-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree_UK (Post 407098)
Thanks for the update blacksix, a couple of questions if i may,

Recently you stated that the patch was going to be released but a last minute glitch with decals prevented this happening, previously to this news there was another last minute problem although I cant for the life of me remember what it was, now we have another last minute issue with the particles. Are we to assume that the first last minute patch killer was fixed but it then affected the decals which when fixed affected the particles?

Lol! Nice one Tree! :grin::grin::grin:

Major Marvel 04-09-2012 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChocsAway (Post 407103)
I've only just started to re-visit the forum after a fairly long break.

It has been my opinion for a very long time that the devs 'hearts' have never been included within the development of CloD. I feel they are keen to now use it as a sketchpad for BOM and that CloD may never reach its true potential.

As for BOM...well I for one will not purchase it unless they one day ;) make a decent fist of CloD, ie make it at least playable without the micro-stutters and implement the myriad of missing (promised)features. Even then, I'm not sure I'd be interested in what is essentially (correct me if I'm wrong) a tarted up version of the original IL-2. That is a personal opinion though and I'd have much rather seen the much ignored Korean theatre given a fair crack of the whip this time around.

I'm still on board though and would love to see CloD working in all its glory, but I still have my doubts as I did 6 months ago. I personally feel we've been fed an awful lot of 'waffle' by the devs since the last beta patch was released and I just hope the graphics engine re-write will have been worth the wait. Then there will probably be an even longer wait for the missing features to be implemented...that is if they decide to go that route rather than concentrating all of their efforts on BOM.

The patience of many on here (not speaking for everyone) including me has been pushed to the limit and I think the devs have to do something positive soon to avoid a 'rats leaving a sinking ship' scenario (or did that happen already!). In the end I only want Clod to work as advertised and include the promised features that I payed for.

It has to be said that in a year plus since release very little has improved with the sim and although the 'avid' ;) fans (not going to use the 'fan***s' word :grin:) might disagree with me the devs have IMO deserved the amount of 'flak' that has been directed towards them from digruntled purchasers of CloD.

I hope that they are able to redeem themselves soon and go someway to making CloD into what they claimed it would be before we see BOM. :)

Could not have said it any better.

Insuber 04-09-2012 12:59 PM

Welcome back Tree!

Iirc the present landscape colors have been washed out (de-saturated) in one of the patches, together with the cockpits.
As far as the hedgerows ... yesterday I've flown low level between Biggin Hill and Dungeness, and the landscape wasn't so bad.

Cheers!

furbs 04-09-2012 01:12 PM

Where are the pics Insuber!!??

Insuber 04-09-2012 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbs (Post 407127)
Where are the pics Insuber!!??

What pics mate?

Luftwaffepilot 04-09-2012 02:01 PM

Tree, the strangest thing is that the particles are a "last- minute" issue.
Either they haven't even tested the game once or they are just talking bs, cause the particles have been an, if not THE issue from day 1!

Tree_UK 04-09-2012 02:07 PM

Yes i was actually wondering if anybody as ever seen any of the Dev team actually playing this game (on line that is). It doesn't say a great deal for the product if none of the creators actually play. I'm sure if Luthier flew on line even just once he would have a far greater understanding of what our issues and concerns are.

Flanker35M 04-09-2012 02:15 PM

S!

I remember shooting down Oleg's P39 in my Bf109 during IL-2 beta. He flew well and was great to see other devs there too. He got first hand feedback so to say. I wish Luthier and Co would arrange for example "Catch the Dev" events or something, like World Of Tanks has. Would bring the community more together I think?

furbs 04-09-2012 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 407138)
What pics mate?


Sorry, thought you was flying for real :)

ATAG_Snapper 04-09-2012 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree_UK (Post 407149)
Yes i was actually wondering if anybody as ever seen any of the Dev team actually playing this game (on line that is). It doesn't say a great deal for the product if none of the creators actually play. I'm sure if Luthier flew on line even just once he would have a far greater understanding of what our issues and concerns are.

Good point.

Haven't seen any of the devs in the ATAG Server that I know of but that may be a language issue. To be fair, we get many players showing up at all hours (and logged in our STATS page) that I don't know who they are and may well be members of the dev team evaluating their progress. It's also likely they could be going to the Repka Server for better pings and the language thing.

louisv 04-09-2012 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendo65 (Post 407097)
Ok - something strange.

I've wondered about this for a while. I saved a few of the videos from the Igromir show. One in particular showed a Hurricane flying over the English countryside.

I've just done a few screenshots from the video. This is the pre-release DX version of the game remember, but look at the terrain layout...

hedgerows, nice layout - looks very like the Open GL???

So what's going on?

That was before speedtrees, and I don't see anymore hedgerows than the current version.

I remember disctintly that this version of the landscape was rejected by many (including the usual suspects...) because of the cartoony look of the trees and the landscape in general.

Opengl has nothing to do with it.

kendo65 04-09-2012 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louisv (Post 407161)
That was before speedtrees, and I don't see anymore hedgerows than the current version.

No, it wasn't. This was a couple of months before the release - video is dated 5th November 2010 to be exact.

The Open GL version was way before. This is a DirectX pre-release version (with SpeedTree).

Looks VERY different to me?!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by louisv (Post 407161)
I remember disctintly that this version of the landscape was rejected by many (including the usual suspects...) because of the cartoony look of the trees and the landscape in general.

Opengl has nothing to do with it.

Reread my earlier posts. I think you're getting confused between two different versions.

jimson8 04-09-2012 03:25 PM

The fact is that there is a ton of cash out there for the taking. The developers have to know that many of us are waiting to hear that the game is working well, before plopping our money down.

I don't know what the story is behind "eastern front" and other new modules that will be coming out for sale, but I won't be buying anything until I see that most are happy with the performance of the game.

So developers, here I am waving cash in front of the monitor. Give me a reason to spend it.

Another version based on a broken game won't do it.

Here's to hoping you get my money soon.

Volksieg 04-09-2012 04:09 PM

I was kinda hoping for a "surprise" announcement today, what with the knowledge they were working through the weekend.........

Didn't happen. oh well. :D

I just hope the game is fixed soon as I'm cancelling my Broadband in a few weeks and moving home... (Obviously I'll be setting up broadband again once that's over. lol).... was really clinging to the idea CloD would be fixed by then.

I haven't lost faith, mind. I still think good times are coming and they will be soon! Just hope 1C doesn't make a fool of me for being so positive. :D

Daliaraptor 04-09-2012 04:21 PM

Come on guys
 
Yes, there are bugs.
Yes, there are crashes.
Yes, the FM is... well, sometimes wiry.
And yes the AI is crap.

But after countless hours in clod (MP), it is nevertheless the absolute most breathtaking game i've ever played.

I spent about 1000 Euros for my Computer, another 400 for joystick and track ir. I should have spend a litle bit more for the PC:cry: but it works good enough to hunt down the enemy fluently:mrgreen:

Flight Sims are expensive, but worth the money. Be happy that there is at least one developer who made this kind of game/simulation (except 777). Or would you prefer the outcoming Resident Evil 10 with a lot more action than before???
Or a crappy flight shooter, which are very popular at the moment:confused:

I know there are people who cant even play it, im so sorry for those. Really! you miss something great...

Good luck...

This are the specs:
Asus Formula 4, AMD Phenom X6 1080T,Asus 6950 2GB (Settings on verry high, except Trees and Landshading)

bw_wolverine 04-09-2012 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree_UK (Post 407149)
Yes i was actually wondering if anybody as ever seen any of the Dev team actually playing this game (on line that is). It doesn't say a great deal for the product if none of the creators actually play. I'm sure if Luthier flew on line even just once he would have a far greater understanding of what our issues and concerns are.

If you were a CloD developer at this point, would you use a recognizable name when playing online?

Or maybe better put this way:

If you had a cage of starving lions, would you dress in a three piece bacon suit and wander in?

Osprey 04-09-2012 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine (Post 407189)
If you were a CloD developer at this point, would you use a recognizable name when playing online?

Or maybe better put this way:

If you had a cage of starving lions, would you dress in a three piece bacon suit and wander in?

Hmmmm, worth an experiment.....

Sutts 04-09-2012 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daliaraptor (Post 407182)
Yes, there are bugs.
Yes, there are crashes.
Yes, the FM is... well, sometimes wiry.
And yes the AI is crap.

But after countless hours in clod (MP), it is nevertheless the absolute most breathtaking game i've ever played.

I spent about 1000 Euros for my Computer, another 400 for joystick and track ir. I should have spend a litle bit more for the PC:cry: but it works good enough to hunt down the enemy fluently:mrgreen:

Flight Sims are expensive, but worth the money. Be happy that there is at least one developer who made this kind of game/simulation (except 777). Or would you prefer the outcoming Resident Evil 10 with a lot more action than before???
Or a crappy flight shooter, which are very popular at the moment:confused:

I know there are people who cant even play it, im so sorry for those. Really! you miss something great...

Good luck...

This are the specs:
Asus Formula 4, AMD Phenom X6 1080T,Asus 6950 2GB (Settings on verry high, except Trees and Landshading)

+100
Well said

Chivas 04-09-2012 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree_UK (Post 407149)
Yes i was actually wondering if anybody as ever seen any of the Dev team actually playing this game (on line that is). It doesn't say a great deal for the product if none of the creators actually play. I'm sure if Luthier flew on line even just once he would have a far greater understanding of what our issues and concerns are.

There is no chance they aren't doing plenty of flight testing online while at work on their own servers (and probably the Repka servers), and are more than well aware of the issues. They've also probably built and tested the performance of a number of revisions of the graphic engine, and will continue to do so until they feel its ready to release.

The particle issue appears to be the last stumbling block for the performance patch. Of course this could be all bullcrap, but what purpose would it serve, they've already sold the majority of the copies of COD there going to sell until its fixed, and the majority of us won't buy the Sequel unless we see and hear positive things from those who have bought it.

The product will have to sell itself this time, passed performance is no longer a positive, that sells sight unseen. Even if there are still issues with the Sequel there maybe enough sales in Russia to keep the development solvent long enough to fix them. Personally I think they will have the performance issues fixed, and probably another patch with some fixes for the AI, Commands, and FM etc either before or in conjunction with the Sequels release. I really don't see the the release of the sequel for quite sometime, which should give them plenty of time for another patch, after the performance patch. They would probably want to community beta test fixes for the AI etc before releasing the sequel anyway.

Tavingon 04-09-2012 09:06 PM

Fantastic.. Looking forward to it but in all honesty it is CLOD I am looking forward to most with added stuff

PotNoodles 04-09-2012 09:41 PM

I don't see the point in holding the patch back because of a few lagg problems. Especially when the game is one big lagg for me in it's current condition. I can also be 98% certain that once the patch is released that people will still moan about certain things, so that's another reason not to hold it back. I just want to play the game, but in it's current state I'm not able to do this. I don't think there is such a thing as "The Perfect Game." One without bugs.. Seriously, we would be waiting forever if they tried to make the game totally bug free. I will be more then happy when I am able just to play the game.

BTW - I am just making points here! I don't believe in moaning - My wife and kids moan on at me all the time, so I know how annoying moaning can get.

kendo65 04-09-2012 10:18 PM

May be a good idea. Been starting to think that myself.

This calls for a poll. :)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=31011

hiro 04-09-2012 11:17 PM

thanks for the updates

and the picture are coming along nicely. I like the attitude to keep at it and keep improving things.


there used to be a time when toyota was considered junk and ford + chevy + gm ruled the car biz, but toyota focused on little improvements . . . and now they have quality stuff (well they had problems like all top biz does).

-----

in regarding the devs flying online . . . I used to repair PC's . . . and when I got home, the last thing I wanted to see was a PC or even use one.

Maybe the case is here, the devs are working alot on this game, and when its time to go home after work, they don't want to bring work home :D

But thats just me. I knew some guys that lived and breathed computers, so they'd be working on computers, and then go home and hack or run their p2p seed servers or just program stuff for fun, and their lives revolved around computers, so it depends on the person, some people see their work as their life . . . others may want to balance their lives out more . . .

----

in regarding the game being broke . . . I think the future patches will solve most problems Clod has today, and since the format for old Il-2 is probably being used, we will get the sequel, which is stand alone but it will add on to Clod. So the sequel will also update Clod . . .

-----


i'm totally from the school of measure once, cut twice . . . meaning its better to fully test something, make sure it does what you want it to do, and does it in all sorts of situations from slow to crazy, take your time to do it right, then release it.

Granted there is a balancing act, you cannot waste time and spend forever doing something or suffering from excessive perfectionism, especially with sims or video games in general.

Wolf_Rider 04-09-2012 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotNoodles (Post 407247)
I don't see the point in holding the patch back because of a few lagg problems. Especially when the game is one big lagg for me in it's current condition. I can also be 98% certain that once the patch is released that people will still moan about certain things, so that's another reason not to hold it back. I just want to play the game, but in it's current state I'm not able to do this. I don't think there is such a thing as "The Perfect Game." One without bugs.. Seriously, we would be waiting forever if they tried to make the game totally bug free. I will be more then happy when I am able just to play the game.

BTW - I am just making points here! I don't believe in moaning - My wife and kids moan on at me all the time, so I know how annoying moaning can get.

Well, what happens is... not everyone is ever happy.
The developers roll over to the very vocal minority and release a patch before it is ready and they get shot for releasing a patch with bugs and hounded for doing that.
Look, everyone knows the state of the nation... give the developers space to work and allow them to get to target, giving it the their best shot.
Let them work without pressure or blackmail (financial and emotional).
There is no real point in having an early partial release, is there? (isn't that what got us here in the first place??).

Just do the same thing you tell your youngens, when they moan and carry on - "have patience, it will be ready, when it is ready"

PotNoodles 04-09-2012 11:53 PM

@wolf_Rider

I see where you are coming from and I am not overly bothered about waiting. The point I was making is that they may just aswell of released it because it will not please everyone when the patch is out. My point is there will always be bugs in games and this fix will not address them all. I will just be happy when I can play the game, unlike some people who just like to moan about the colors in the game and what not. Anyways, it will be ready when it is ready and I except that.

ACE-OF-ACES 04-09-2012 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine (Post 407189)
If you were a CloD developer at this point, would you use a recognizable name when playing online?

Or maybe better put this way:

If you had a cage of starving lions, would you dress in a three piece bacon suit and wander in?

Bingo!

Same reasoning goes into why I don't fly CoD online with my forum handle.

Tree_UK 04-10-2012 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES (Post 407286)
Bingo!

Same reasoning goes into why I don't fly CoD online with my forum handle.

Well I fly online using my forum name and join TS channels and I have never had any issues, but I take your point if you are really unpopular you wouldn't want to let yourself be known.

313_Paegas 04-10-2012 05:19 AM

Don´t release patch until is finished.
After all, if you want to release something, do flayable cockpits for Wellington, Dephiant and repair engine management for Blenheim.
;-)

III/JG53_Don 04-10-2012 08:23 AM

I mean I am completely in line with those who want a finished patch and not sth. rushed out just to keep bigger parts of the community quiet.

But IF I understand it correctly that particle effects are the last issue they are facing regarding the microstutters and therefore IF these stutters are the same as in our version, then I say: Hey here I am patch, I'm waiting for you :D

But maybe in their current engine build the stutters because of particle effects are worse than ours due to the rewriting of the code. In that case I think nobodys helping anyone with releasing a patch now.

Jatta Raso 04-10-2012 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES (Post 407286)
Bingo!

Same reasoning goes into why I don't fly CoD online with my forum handle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree_UK (Post 407315)
Well I fly online using my forum name and join TS channels and I have never had any issues, but I take your point if you are really unpopular you wouldn't want to let yourself be known.

Bingo!

:rolleyes:

Opitz 04-10-2012 01:11 PM

Nice simulator of russian villages :cool:

Opitz 04-10-2012 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES (Post 407286)
Bingo!

Same reasoning goes into why I don't fly CoD online with my forum handle.


I don't understand why you are so scared... None else except people like you play this game right now...

F19_Klunk 04-10-2012 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opitz (Post 407413)
I don't understand why you are so scared... None else except people like you play this game right now...


Maybe it has to do whit the nickname itself... to fly online with a name such as "ace-of aces" demands an extremely able pilot .. ;)

Force10 04-10-2012 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opitz (Post 407413)
I don't understand why you are so scared... None else except people like you play this game right now...

I would fly with my forum name but for those that dabble in the art of "douchebaggery" tend to conceal their forum name online, it cuts down on friendly fire incidents.

Chivas 04-10-2012 04:05 PM

And we wonder why we don't all get along. LMFAO

Krt_Bong 04-10-2012 04:14 PM

My message to 1C:
Dear Sirs,
please do not release the patch before it is ready, however if when the patch is released there is nothing anyone can truly see but performance tweaks include something that the community CAN see (like the Su-26) so they at least have something that they can get excited about before they start complaining again.

(Personally if the Grand Patch comes out and nothing "looks" different I see a huge amount of whining and moaning on the horizon shortly after)

Your Truly
a member of the above mentioned community

bw_wolverine 04-10-2012 04:25 PM

If the patch comes out and absolutely NOTHING changes EXCEPT I don't get Launcher.exe crashes, I will call it a complete success.

Winger 04-10-2012 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine (Post 407480)
If the patch comes out and absolutely NOTHING changes EXCEPT I don't get Launcher.exe crashes, I will call it a complete success.

TOTALLY Agree!

6S.Manu 04-10-2012 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine (Post 407480)
If the patch comes out and absolutely NOTHING changes EXCEPT I don't get Launcher.exe crashes, I will call it a complete success.

WOW... The bar is really low... :)

I'm not going to play seriously until the FMs are fixed.

bw_wolverine 04-10-2012 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu (Post 407487)
WOW... The bar is really low... :)

I'm going to play seriously until the FMs are fixed.

At this point? Yes. The bar is that low. There's plenty of fun to be had with the game as is, but ONLY if the game doesn't crash.

Frequent_Flyer 04-10-2012 05:31 PM

I beleive what is unaccounted for on these forums is the " silent majority". I read the update thread twice a month maybe, less as time goes on.As a cosumer I view this this sim as" competing" for my entertainment dollars. There is little entertainment value in the on-line experience that crashes constantly , off line is not much better with the constant freezes. I would venture a guess that the majority of would be consumers do not even post, they just move on to other interests or forms of entertainment.
The current state of this sim combined with the choice for the next (BOM) installment has left most folks i converse with looking for other aerial combat sims.
The graphics and damage model are light years ahead of IL-2 1946, but so are some of the other flight sims on the market. As for the potential, actions always speak louder than words.

Kwiatek 04-10-2012 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu (Post 407487)
WOW... The bar is really low... :)

I'm not going to play seriously until the FMs are fixed.

Well said. Without FM/DM and other improvments still it wouldnt be too much sense to play CLoD.

5./JG27.Farber 04-10-2012 06:50 PM

Being able to play online and practice with squadmates with out the game stuttering and crashing would be a grand thing though.

F19_Klunk 04-10-2012 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frequent_Flyer (Post 407498)
...
The current state of this sim combined with the choice for the next (BOM) installment has left most folks i converse with looking for other aerial combat sims.
The graphics and damage model are light years ahead of IL-2 1946, but so are some of the other flight sims on the market. As for the potential, actions always speak louder than words.

Maybe You are right, but it seems to me that the Russian market is, and always has been Maddox Games' most important market, thus the choice of next theatre (if we ever end up there) is both obvious and economically sound.

I do agree though with your final point; "... actions always speak louder than words." So True, and unfortunately we have mostly seen words....

Ze-Jamz 04-10-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 407509)
Being able to play online and practice with squadmates with out the game stuttering and crashing would be a grand thing though.

Agreed but for me personally I didn't have lots of crashes and tbh I think there are other factors at steak as to why a lot if not most don't play this game as it is..FM's are and have always been a massive part of flight sims especially this series..

A patch that just improves performance will bring a lot more whinging about these things because more people will be able to experience it or shall we say it will be highlighted more..just my 2 cents

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's reason for not playing this game was just down to crashes?

ElAurens 04-10-2012 09:33 PM

I stopped playing only because of the crashes.

It made no sense to fly for 20 minutes then end up on the desktop, over and over and over...

Or line up a flight of Ju 88s and... CTD.

If I want frustration, I'll just go back to work.

EvilJoven 04-11-2012 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frequent_Flyer (Post 407498)
I beleive what is unaccounted for on these forums is the " silent majority". I read the update thread twice a month maybe, less as time goes on.As a cosumer I view this this sim as" competing" for my entertainment dollars. There is little entertainment value in the on-line experience that crashes constantly , off line is not much better with the constant freezes. I would venture a guess that the majority of would be consumers do not even post, they just move on to other interests or forms of entertainment.
The current state of this sim combined with the choice for the next (BOM) installment has left most folks i converse with looking for other aerial combat sims.
The graphics and damage model are light years ahead of IL-2 1946, but so are some of the other flight sims on the market. As for the potential, actions always speak louder than words.

The silent majority aren't so silent, they just post here because this forum is just too horrible for words. Go look other places and you'll see a lot of flight sim communities. At this point the CloD community outside of this forum consists of making fun of how terrible CloD is and laughing at how so many of you banana forums people sing and dance and clap and act like the dev team just handed you a puppy and a bag of coke when they show you a picture of a beautifully rendered fence post. Meanwhile, the game sits in this broken, unfun state over a year after launch.

IL-2 is basically the Duke Nukem Forever of flight sims. We waited years for an IL-2 sequel and got something laughable. The only difference is nobody is still defending DNF over a year after launch.

Wolf_Rider 04-11-2012 02:46 AM

I guess you're just helping to make it (in your words) horrible then... :rolleyes:

Frequent_Flyer 04-11-2012 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F19_Klunk (Post 407529)
Maybe You are right, but it seems to me that the Russian market is, and always has been Maddox Games' most important market, thus the choice of next theatre (if we ever end up there) is both obvious and economically sound.

I would agree the Russian market is an important one,however i think the western market place is much larger. I think they would capture more evenue with Med. theater sim. Although the state of the sim would dictate the simple Eastern front vs a much more complex and diverse PTO.

bw_wolverine 04-11-2012 03:23 AM

After tonight's group flying, I will again say that the crashes are definitely the MAJOR issue with regard to my enjoyment of the game.

Everything else, at this point, is gravy and good will towards customers.

Tonight could have been much much better save for the launcher.exe crashes.

klem 04-11-2012 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilJoven (Post 407596)
The silent majority aren't so silent, they just post here because this forum is just too horrible for words. Go look other places and you'll see a lot of flight sim communities. At this point the CloD community outside of this forum consists of making fun of how terrible CloD is and laughing at how so many of you banana forums people sing and dance and clap and act like the dev team just handed you a puppy and a bag of coke when they show you a picture of a beautifully rendered fence post. Meanwhile, the game sits in this broken, unfun state over a year after launch.

IL-2 is basically the Duke Nukem Forever of flight sims. We waited years for an IL-2 sequel and got something laughable. The only difference is nobody is still defending DNF over a year after launch.

The acid test for me is simply this: while TD's IL-2 1946 4.11 is a huge improvement on the IL-2 1946 left us by 1C/Maddox Games I still find myself preferring to fly CoD. It just feels better, even with the stunted FMs. Now, why is that if CoD is "so terrible"?

Take away all the incidental stuff like the GUI which doesn't affect the actual flying, fly on line (I know that's not a preference for some), take the excellent support of the community servers like ATAG, live with the FMs for now because a Rotol Hurricane gives me a fighting chance against the 109s and restart the game each sortie. Not perfect by a very long country mile but I still prefer it to IL-2 '46. No, it isn't the BoB yet but its very enjoyable.

5./JG27.Farber 04-11-2012 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine (Post 407605)
After tonight's group flying, I will again say that the crashes are definitely the MAJOR issue with regard to my enjoyment of the game.

Everything else, at this point, is gravy and good will towards customers.

Tonight could have been much much better save for the launcher.exe crashes.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 407621)
Take away all the incidental stuff like the GUI which doesn't affect the actual flying, fly on line (I know that's not a preference for some), take the excellent support of the community servers like ATAG, live with the FMs for now because a Rotol Hurricane gives me a fighting chance against the 109s and restart the game each sortie. Not perfect by a very long country mile but I still prefer it to IL-2 '46. No, it isn't the BoB yet but its very enjoyable.

Yep. I cant even play 1946 anymore.

Hooves 04-11-2012 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 407558)
I stopped playing only because of the crashes.

It made no sense to fly for 20 minutes then end up on the desktop, over and over and over...

Or line up a flight of Ju 88s and... CTD.

If I want frustration, I'll just go back to work.


Well said Sir, well said.

deeply agree on all accounts.

Catseye 04-11-2012 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 407558)
I stopped playing only because of the crashes.

It made no sense to fly for 20 minutes then end up on the desktop, over and over and over...

Or line up a flight of Ju 88s and... CTD.

If I want frustration, I'll just go back to work.

And yet there are many of us that have not had a crash for weeks. I fly every day for about 3 hours and my settings are pretty much maxed out. No crash or freeze for weeks.

System specs and settings may be an issue for some.

bw_wolverine 04-11-2012 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catseye (Post 407772)
And yet there are many of us that have not had a crash for weeks. I fly every day for about 3 hours and my settings are pretty much maxed out. No crash or freeze for weeks.

System specs and settings may be an issue for some.

That doesn't mean it's not a major issue.

I have an i7. I have a 580 GTX. I have 12gb of RAM. I still get a game crash once every two nights of playing. Usually when I forget to restart the game between sorties.

I think my system is pretty good. This is a bigger issue than someone not having a decent enough computer.

Oh, I've even reduced my graphics settings in some areas to see if it helps. Nope.

von Pilsner 04-11-2012 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catseye (Post 407772)
And yet there are many of us that have not had a crash for weeks. I fly every day for about 3 hours and my settings are pretty much maxed out. No crash or freeze for weeks.

System specs and settings may be an issue for some.

That's great that you are having good luck, I assume you mean online flying.

There are enough users having this issue across many different hardware configurations that it is not simply a matter of lowering graphics settings.

http://www.google.com/search?ix=heb&...iw=853&bih=400

Skoshi Tiger 04-11-2012 11:29 PM

Unfortunately if the problem was consistent accross all systems then it would be easier to isolate and fix. Intermittent or non consistent errors are exponentially harder to find and correct.

For ages I had issues with the original IL-2, ROF, Call of Duty and a-10 crashing to desktop and it ended up being a CODEC setting for FFDShow. Putting my games on an exclusion list and it solved the problem.

Touch wood, I'm haven't had the CTD issue in CoD

5./JG27.Farber 04-11-2012 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger (Post 407923)
Unfortunately if the problem was consistent accross all systems then it would be easier to isolate and fix. Intermittent or non consistent errors are exponentially harder to find and correct.

For ages I had issues with the original IL-2, ROF, Call of Duty and a-10 crashing to desktop and it ended up being a CODEC setting for FFDShow. Putting my games on an exclusion list and it solved the problem.

Touch wood, I'm haven't had the CTD issue in CoD

Wiat what? What? you did what and never got a CTD... :mad:

Tell us more you mad fool~! :-P

speculum jockey 04-12-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilJoven (Post 407596)
The silent majority aren't so silent, they just don't post here because this forum is just too horrible for words. Go look at other places and you'll see a lot of flight sim communities. At this point the CloD community outside of this forum consists of making fun of how terrible CloD is and laughing at how so many of you banana forums people sing and dance and clap and act like the dev team just handed you a puppy and a bag of coke when they show you a picture of a beautifully rendered fence post. Meanwhile, the game sits in this broken, unfun state over a year after launch.

IL-2 is basically the Duke Nukem Forever of flight sims. We waited years for an IL-2 sequel and got something laughable. The only difference is nobody is still defending DNF over a year after launch.

I'm a member on a forum with 160,000+ members, and there is an ongoing CLOD thread. The typical discussions are... (in order of most coverage).

1. "What's wrong with the people on the banana forums?"
2. "Did you see what they asked for? Who would even care about that in a flight sim?"
3. What are the Dev's thinking? Do they think the 1C forums represent the majority of fans?
4. When are they going to add some content, make CO-OP creation easier, etc?
5. WHAT!?! Battle of Moscow? Are they ever going to finish Cliffs of Dover (the game content, not the engine).

Every time someone new posts in that thread asking, "Hey, should I pick up CLOD?" They invariable end up getting DSC-A10, or Rise of Flight, or one of the other flight sims out there. I think that Cliffs of Dover is great for the flight sim Genre because so many people either get fed up with it, or are told not to buy it that they end up getting a different game instead.

And it's not like that thread is full of arcade players. There are actual real pilots, people who do vatsim in FSX, and people who can start up the Blackshark or A-10 without having to once refer to any manual. They all agree, CLOD is not fun as is, and it has nothing to do with crashes or FPS.

Then again they're not the kind of people to "scream like a little girl" when they see the window framss in the new buildings.

addman 04-12-2012 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speculum jockey (Post 408062)
I'm a member on a forum with 160,000+ members, and there is an ongoing CLOD thread. The typical discussions are... (in order of most coverage).

1. "What's wrong with the people on the banana forums?"
2. "Did you see what they asked for? Who would even care about that in a flight sim?"
3. What are the Dev's thinking? Do they think the 1C forums represent the majority of fans?
4. When are they going to add some content, make CO-OP creation easier, etc?
5. WHAT!?! Battle of Moscow? Are they ever going to finish Cliffs of Dover (the game content, not the engine).

Every time someone new posts in that thread asking, "Hey, should I pick up CLOD?" They invariable end up getting DSC-A10, or Rise of Flight, or one of the other flight sims out there. I think that Cliffs of Dover is great for the flight sim Genre because so many people either get fed up with it, or are told not to buy it that they end up getting a different game instead.

And it's not like that thread is full of arcade players. There are actual real pilots, people who do vatsim in FSX, and people who can start up the Blackshark or A-10 without having to once refer to any manual. They all agree, CLOD is not fun as is, and it has nothing to do with crashes or FPS.

Then again they're not the kind of people to "scream like a little girl" when they see the window framss in the new buildings.

Good post Speculum and I agree, the banana is a separate entity all together from the rest of the sim community. Like an isolated island where animals have developed "differently" from species found on major continents.:) Oh! also regarding my post you mentioned at the end there, it's the second time I've had to explain I was being sarcastic, I guess sarcasm doesn't translate so well onto internet forums eh?:)

furbs 04-12-2012 01:24 PM

My sqd mates agree, we have all brought CLOD but dont play it, we all WANT to play but the non existent BOB content and problems are just too much trouble and were not really interested in DFS's, we want online wars and COOP's.

Were all waiting for CLOD to become a BOB simulation, at the moment its just not, its a online small number, low level engagement over the sea, with BOB planes.

speculum jockey 04-12-2012 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by addman (Post 408066)
Good post Speculum and I agree, the banana is a separate entity all together from the rest of the sim community. Like an isolated island where animals have developed "differently" from species found on major continents.:) Oh! also regarding my post you mentioned at the end there, it's the second time I've had to explain I was being sarcastic, I guess sarcasm doesn't translate so well onto internet forums eh?:)

It's just such a perfect quote. I couldn't help but use it! :grin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbs (Post 408068)
My sqd mates agree, we have all brought CLOD but dont play it, we all WANT to play but the non existent BOB content and problems are just too much trouble and were not really interested in DFS's, we want online wars and COOP's.

Were all waiting for CLOD to become a BOB simulation, at the moment its just not, its a online small number, low level engagement over the sea, with BOB planes.

Exactly! Even trying the single-player campaign feels like a random quick mission against the AI. There is nothing to draw me in or hold my attention. As for online dogfights, once you've been jumped by a plane flying through trees, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

The fans that would make this game a success, critical and financial are begging for some manner of SEOW, an online war, anything that makes every aircraft that you lose/shoot down matter. That's what this game and community is asking for. People say, "pffft! Go back to your FPS". Right now CLOD online is a first person shooter! Hop into a random battle, last one standing wins! There is no tracking of info, no difference made to the overall picture if you do well or not, just a score card while the next random dogfight loads.

kendo65 04-12-2012 01:36 PM

What has everyone got against fence posts anyway..? :) Had an unfortunate accident a few years ago maybe?

Seriously though (or as seriously as I can muster over this) anyone who can't understand that the point was not about fence posts but about the overall effect created in producing a realistic looking Russian village (in a thread that specifically asked for feedback about realistic Russian villages) is either pretty thick or has spent so much time being a professional cynical old fart they no longer know how to be anything else.

speculum jockey 04-12-2012 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kendo65 (Post 408072)
What has everyone got against fence posts anyway..? :) Had an unfortunate accident a few years ago maybe?

Seriously though (or as seriously as I can muster over this) anyone who can't understand that the point was not about fence posts but about the overall effect created in producing a realistic looking Russian village (in a thread that specifically asked for feedback about realistic Russian villages) is either pretty thick or has spent so much time being a professional cynical old fart they no longer know how to be anything else.

I forgot to add that to the list,

6. "Ways the Devs distract their fans with inconsequential garbage from the fact that CLOD will never be finished." (the game, not the engine).

MegOhm 04-12-2012 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger (Post 407923)
Unfortunately if the problem was consistent accross all systems then it would be easier to isolate and fix. Intermittent or non consistent errors are exponentially harder to find and correct.

For ages I had issues with the original IL-2, ROF, Call of Duty and a-10 crashing to desktop and it ended up being a CODEC setting for FFDShow. Putting my games on an exclusion list and it solved the problem.

Touch wood, I'm haven't had the CTD issue in CoD

I Have not had CTD problems with those other games and I have run them on several different systems over the years.

I have had 2 hour flights in custom Scripted COOP missions in COD but that is rare. That was hosting in MP but noone joined, so I was by myself although in MP mode. When our squad does hook up with 3 or 4 others in MP, The CTD is inevitable 30 minutes in...almost every time for me. A little less frequent for my squad mates, but it happens eventually.

BTW for the majority...we should not have to restart COD after every mission.... If there are truly some out there that have no CTD issues with COD... That is just wonderful and amazing...but hard to believe.

ffdshow? The below description is from their site....

"ffdshow tryouts picked up where ffdshow left off and is a DirectShow and Video for Windows codec with support for a wide range of audio and video formats, such as Xvid, DivX, and H.264. It includes a powerful filter set that can enhance the video quality - with filters for resizing, deinterlacing, and displaying subtitles - as well as audio quality through normalization, down-/upmixing, and resampling."

http://ffdshow-tryout.sourceforge.net/

I have never tried this. Maybe there is something to it?

I have also been trying out Game Booster 3 from iobit lately with mixed results...needs more testing. It cannot hurt to free up your resources.

http://www.iobit.com/gamebooster.html

IMHO...we should not have to jump through hoops to try to make this Sim work. But we do try...because we want it to.

Meanwhile...still waiting for the "patch of the Future" to see where it puts COD.

carguy_ 04-13-2012 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speculum jockey (Post 408062)
Then again they're not the kind of people to "scream like a little girl" when they see the window framss in the new buildings.

OK, I did not like this update at all. Showing manable tanks in action is very different from showing a group of countryside houses.

Then again I didn`t go on a 13 page rampage to tell the devs how I feel about it.

carguy_ 04-13-2012 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furbs (Post 408068)
My sqd mates agree, we have all brought CLOD but dont play it, we all WANT to play but the non existent BOB content and problems are just too much trouble and were not really interested in DFS's, we want online wars and COOP's.

Excellent. I believe online squads mainly look for coops and I hope that the devs will get the message.

Although as soon as the worthy patch comes out, and the words about CloD being worthy aswell spreads, I`m sure it will pick up pretty quickly on popularity. We can criticize CloD but we shouldn`t deny that there are pretty many people waiting for the real thing to happen.

And although I find comparing CloD to Duke Nukem Forever outrageous, I can`t help but feel the similar taste of disappointment.

Tree_UK 04-13-2012 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carguy_ (Post 408362)
Excellent. I believe online squads mainly look for coops and I hope that the devs will get the message.

Although as soon as the worthy patch comes out, and the words about CloD being worthy aswell spreads, I`m sure it will pick up pretty quickly on popularity. We can criticize CloD but we shouldn`t deny that there are pretty many people waiting for the real thing to happen.

And although I find comparing CloD to Duke Nukem Forever outrageous, I can`t help but feel the similar taste of disappointment.

I think your right, I still firmly believe that if the product is fixed all the nonsense and bull crap that as happened since release will soon be forgotton. It doesn't matter what side of the fence you are currently on the mass majority simply want to enjoy this product and if its fixed the news will spread very quick.

S!

fruitbat 04-13-2012 10:23 AM

with the game working and co-ops, word would spread like wildfire.


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