Pathetic as usual. I bought a PS3Eye, didn't "make it", and use a free software to track IR dots and give me 6DoF HT. It's completly different build a TOF camera...

Another stupid atempt to trace comparsions between apples and oranges by this genious! :cool:

But MAYBE now they understand why Kinetic really has some value in HARDWARE, and NP HT gaming products no, because they are really overpriced.

Or not, because he's work for NP.

nooo... you use free software to hack another's software and do so because you felt TIR was too expensive.

Have you stopped to think about the import tax and charges would still be applicable for the MSK?

Wolf_Rider, forget about them.
They, or at least Lobi.., have finally said in the other thread that they pirate NP Software.
Now they only throw smoke bombs to diffuse any curios reader skimming this thread.
If you go down to their level they'll beat you with experience, not arguments.
Those Fanboys are living in their own little world, they know whats bad and good and wont let facts disturb this little paradise.

One thing: pure and legal -> good <-> illegal or even shady -> bad.
I hope we all have a consent here.

:wink:

I wonder where FaceTrackNoIR sits, legaly?

If you live in NWO/WTO fantasyland and your config.ini says this

trackIRUse=1

and you don't have a ~$150 TrackIR unit on your desk, you are an illegal pirate.

Otherwise, it is just like Freetrack. Perfectly legal and good.:)

In which regard, JAMF?

Same as FT - legal! Any business that suffers copywright/Patent infringement can claim damages. Either NP are very rich/unconcerned or there has been no infringement. FT users have nothing to prove but have fell into the trap of arguing conflicting opinions of 'morality'.

You might as well devoted the entire thread to a neighbours dispute regards ownership of apples falling from a neighbours tree into his garden! Bloody ridiculous!

NP don't like FT....prove it is illegal and sue!

Anyone don't like NP don't buy their products.

well, SEE, you keep pushing the dispute along... don't you ;)

FTNIR is a hack just like FT is.

Prove FT illegal? you idiots already have

Beacause it is used for 6DOF in Il2 and therefore........hell, do we really give a gnats turd?......it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic!

no, you don't

W-R if your keeping count of posts ....your winning hands down! congrats there buddy. Secondly, I wouldn't call anybody an idiot but I guess my principles are different to yours.

The problem is that FT and FTnoIR are at present pretty much forced to emulate the NP software because very few game developers have opened up the possibility to interface directly with their game.

Of course this pisses NP off as they don't see why anyone should hack or emulate their software without purchasing their hardware. That's reasonable.

However it is unreasonable and undeniably false to claim that nowadays the only way to have head-tracking in a game is to have to buy expensive hardware when it's patently obvious that a webcam with the right software is perfectly capable.

If a developer were to say to, for example, the FT devs; "Hey we love what you do but we would need to enable native support rather than hacked TrackIR emulation..." then NP would no longer hold the monopoly, and we the consumer would finally have a fair choice.

It would then be up to NP to ensure that their hardware and software solution was superior to the 'webcam + free software' solution and we would have an open and honest playing field.

NP are trying to maintain their monopoly, I can't blame them but competition is healthy and if NP are stopping developers from enabling any alternative solution then that is anti-competitive and unreasonable.

FMD....

that is the problem

the alternatives developers have every opportunity to present a clean alternative to developers in seeking inclusion. A consensus was reached very early in the thread on games should be available to alternative headtracking

even when FT uses a an non-TIR interfacing, most users pass that over for the TIR interfacing for its quality.

there is no monopoly (proven) and no proof of anti-competitive behaviour (that cry has been going on for 2 -3 years now)

elaborate that please... what means? now you are climbing on the glass.. what quality have TIR interface that don't have FT?? THEY JUST SEND FUC*ING DATA THROUGH A .DLL

and, for your information, this is the C++ source code to use Freetrack DLL

the red/bolded text are the coords... that is very easy to include in a game... OK?

dmn... i promised not reply to W_R posts but i had to do

Alberto

err, albx... I never that wasn't the code, I said it was a copy paste

(its not 100% bug free but at least it works

-updated the struct
-renamed FTReportID to FTReportName on line 93
-commented out the break in the loop, this allows the program to keep if for some reason the struct failed to update, so any program built off it should be error-tolerant)

is from the header




and I asked your pal to put into layman's terms how the FT worked, ie what did it hook into?

I have fixed your quote to make it more thruthful.

is it hardly surprising a FT'er would stoop to forgery now?

You are wrong. I'm not an FTer. I have TrackIR1 hardware, unfortunately there is no Win7 driver so it's not currently in use. I have too many kids to feed and therefore cannot afford to purchase the latest TIR.

Judging by your apparent inability to see the whole picture it is typical that you would jump to the wrong conclusion though.

the rest is your concern and your concern alone and not an excuse to resort to forgery

W_R you act like a dumbass but i don't think you are... so WHO really are you?

P.S.
Probably mods know who you really are, this is the reason why this thread like the other isn't locked yet? why are we killing each other only to have included FT support in CoD? If they already didn't there is a reason, so I hope Oleg & C. can change their mind if possible...

who am I? I'm a layman asking about the way the FT works.... ? simple question, I thought

W_R, you know how it works, you just told me in the other post (if you didn't know how to develope a C++ software you couldn't tell me), and probably you already downloaded the source code from the FT website, so what exactly do you want know? how FT compute the coords or what?

err, where was this??

there? or i'm so stupid i can't read english because it's not my native language? or i missed some posts?

are you sure you really want to go down this road, albx?



no, not "there"... do you know what the red highlighted section is?

tell me, I'm sure i missed something... it's not your statement?

err, (if you mean the section you highlighted) no

sorry, so who wrote it? I'm sure I missed something then :rolleyes:

edit:
I found it, ok. I just copied and pasted the code from my sdk samples

yes, you have...

the code you posted is a copy/ paste of text another copied from a post on another website...

neither you nor the other one can answer the question in layman's terms and choose to throw out smokescreens and stink bombs instead.

what??? I copied and pasted the SOURCE CODE SAMPLE in MY SDK folder, not copied from another website, it's included in the FT files, so what exactly you wants to know? How freetrack send data to the DLL or what? be more precise
dmn in one post you seemed you understood, i was aware you copied a post from FT forum, now you again act like a dumbass... I'm tired...

I've already asked what I wanted to know, it was clear... so what are you going around in circles for? Can't work the ball, so you're goin' the player instead??

W_R, sorry but i have to tell you in my italian dialect, vaupigliancul

I don't know your dialect and this is an english forum, so could you give a rough translation, perhaps?

It means "you're right about everything and everyone agrees with you and you're so amazing so please now, can you stop posting the same thing again and again and then accusing everyone else of going round in circles", I think.

Who is this person, "another"?

two posts before your #98

Then what did you mean by your comments below as it is not part of text at #96?

(its not 100% bug free but at least it works

-updated the struct
-renamed FTReportID to FTReportName on line 93
-commented out the break in the loop, this allows the program to keep if for some reason the struct failed to update, so any program built off it should be error-tolerant)

is from the header

do you want it in layman's or technical terms?

Do you admit these are your words and thoughts or not? Yes or no?

read back a bit, sport

Thanks. I have my answer.:)

well done... I'm glad to have helped you

do you have anything else pertaining to the thread, anything new or original, you'd like to offer?

Albx, watch your six in the future. This was a smoke bomb trap set up by the W-R.

Step 1) W-R sets up the trap by saying this C++ script is a "copy-paste" job to generate an expected reaction from you.

Step 2) W-R makes a few casual "programmer" type comments about the script to make you think he has some proof that it is a "copy-paste" job. As you see, I could not get a simple "yes/no" answer from him that these were his words. Instead, he tried to trick you into thinking they were a part of post #96 from that "other/another" poster when you called him out on them. Pretty sneaky crap going on here.

Step 3) W-R conveniently forgets to remind you that this script has probably gone through a few versions of Freetrack, leading you to possibly leap to the conclusion that this “commenting out” was done surreptitiously and, therefore, must be evidence of a “copy-paste” job. Did you notice how he tries to lead you there in his "programmer" comments?

Obviously, the purpose of the trap is simply to deflect you from your original observation about the ridiculous statement he made. He stated:

“even when FT uses a an non-TIR interfacing, most users pass that over for the TIR interfacing for its quality.”

Clearly, this statement is also only meant to provoke another reaction. I say to Wolf-Rider, trolls can not herd cats.;)

sure i will, ty MadBlaster ;)

W-R , NP know exactly how it works, send them an email - given their customer support reputation I am sure they will send you full and accurate details.

Maybe you or NP can answer a simple question (and I suggest all FT users simply repeat it to any quote that involves 'Hack', 'stolen', 'not clean'!).

QUESTION...........Why have NP been unable to claim damages or prevent the use of their original DLL against, or by, 3rd party developers?

well, for something has been banging on for 2 ~ 3 years now, there hasn't been much advance on "monopoly" threats by FT either ;)

exactly that :grin:

how's yer black shirt? all nicely starched and ironed?

are you telling me I'm a fascist? elaborate please

you finished all the arguments so now you begin to offend people or what?

I've been getting offended all the way through, sport and from the start... what am I to think?

that probably you exceeded your daily posts so you should stop writing idiocies?

my point made...

if the shirt fits, albx...

yeah... fits very well, you ironed it very good... (no more TIR arguments? are you done?)

that would depend on what else comes in... are you okay with that??

you are bringing me in an unexplored land... should i begin to offend you? nah... you don't need my words because almost 80% of users that answer your posts thinks what exactly you are... they told you so many times :D

P.S.
go to bed it's late there, you have to get up early to go to school

You've been copping #### all the way through because of your style of "discussion".

For example, I would have thought an adult would be capable of understanding an analogy, rather than taking it as a literal (and thus irrelevant) point.

why do we have two threads about the same topic?
Yes, they started with different ones, but now they pretty much merged.
Please let one die. thx.

I'm sorry your (collective) points and arguments just aren't holding water... that's why you (collective) are so upset

The reason you believe "our" points aren't holding any water is because:

1. You refuse to even look at them objectively.
2. You ignore points to which you have no counter arguement.
3. You can't answer simple questions when asked directly.
4. You fail to understand the points some people are making eg. the joystick analogy.
5. You state your opinion as fact and when someone disagrees, you then:
6. You deflect by telling people to read through the thread because their point has already been addressed (when it hasn't).
7. You construct posts which look like they are replies but actually aren't eg. by saying things like "see point 1" when point 1 doesn't even address the issue.
8. When someone tells you you're not addressing the point you say stuff like "what has that got to do with the thread?" trying to make it look like they are somehow attacking you.
9. You repeat the same arguments again and again because you believe your opinion is fact.
10. You also accuse people of personal attacks against you and then go on to call others fasists.

It's kind of hard to have a discussion with someone like that.

Now, you'll probably read this post and see it as some kind of attack against you but it really isn't, this is merely what I have witnessed from reading through these threads - when I said ealier "you clearly can't be reasoned with" I meant just that, you have a clear bias on this subject and no amount of reasonable discussion will change that so there really is no point continuing in this debate. At this point noone is going to change the others 'side' so why go on any further?

you may have missed the consensus reached early in the piece?

This argument is a bit like two pilots in a turning battle and neither can get the angle.......one has to break.

I will post this in both threads as they are essentially the same and, as a user of both systems, have been the 'devils advocate' for too long. So both sets of protagonists read the following! I added the RED text to link the legal position to version.

Text strings bearing explicit notice of "EyeControl Technologies" copyright (former name of NaturalPoint, Inc.) can be found within previous versions of the library in question. However, the strings have been encrypted in recent versions of the library to hide them. The continued presence of the strings can be verified by connecting to the interface and reading them.

The creators of FreeTrack did not deny copyright infringement at this time.

During early releases FreeTrack V1 the source for their TrackIR Enhanced DLL was publicly viewable. The copyrighted strings were clearly visible in the file NPClient_h.pas. Since that time, the developers have removed public access to the TrackIR Enhanced DLL in their source control system , while the rest of their source remains open to the public.

see response - other thread

NaturalPoint statement from their forum:


We are glad to see FreeTrack recognizing the value of head tracking in games and simulations as pioneered by our TrackIR product. We hope FreeTrack also recognizes the tremendous effort and investment NaturalPoint has and continues to make in getting titles to support head tracking and promoting it within the community. We encourage FreeTrack to undertake their own such efforts instead of relying upon the work of NaturalPoint.

As an owner of both systems I am free to use either but consider FT to have many advantages over my TrackIR.

I have full ownership rights over my hardware in tems of repair, upgrade and renewal?

The FT software is better (IMO) with added functionality not available in TrackIR.

The TrackIR clip is poor in terms of durability and construction, restricted to one side. If one LED fails the entire Clip has to be renewed.

There is no advantage in either regards performance with my set up. That may differ for others.

I have no interest in any legal disputes, or the opinions of others, whilst I m legally entitled to use FTv2.2 it will remain my first choice every time.

No support in CoD? I will use TrackIR.

See reponse, other thread. Also, I agree with swiss. One thread only please. This is a poll thread.

OMG! They finally agree on something!

that's frightening :s

and in the same vein of thought... NP has every right to ensure you don't do it through their software.

I'll use some REAL "hack" way to use Freetrack. But just if 1C and NP wants. If they provide FreeTrackClient.dll route, I'll use it.

Without a trace of "moral" or "legal" concern. W-R can drop dead and talk a lot of crap. I'll use my hardware and my free software to provide me 6DoF TH data, if some crap hardware company and some game company don't want to give suport to my solution own interface, I'll find a way to use some that works.

And just a complete idiot can think it's either "ilegal" or "imoral". NP will never dictate the way I'll generate my 6DoF HT, sorry NP, drop dead!

Bye! Power to the people! LOL!

+1 ;)

Socialism will never survive without Capitalism, Lobi and Animal Farm, is more than a cartoon.

Capitalism will never survive...

Do you guys go on line? Someone could set up a private slot and watch the caps v the Socy's or NP brigade v FT Brigade. Those with both cannot take part (e.g. Moi!)- have to park-up and watch the action instead! :grin:

what would be the point?
one would be running hacks and the other wouldn't ;)

Oh myGod!....damned FT must hack the weapons and FM too, I didn't know that....I want to change my vote!!

Are you sure you are understanding the topic at hand? (At times, I'm not that sure you are... )

Yeah, your right W-R, I picked up on the last few thread topics and noticed the following comments, some nice ones by you too......sort of mix of politics and insults.......fight it out in the air I say!

This guy is pathetic...

When you can be civil and behave yourself, I'll take you off ignore again

how's yer black shirt? all nicely starched and ironed? if the shirt fits,

Socialism will never survive without Capitalism, Lobi and Animal Farm, is more than a cartoon.

So, I guess that means you have nothing of worth to contribute to the thread, See?

He contribute more than you. You just write a lot of crap.

I'm sorry if my view doesn't appease your view, LoBi... you're just going to have to learn to live with that.

You don't even have a view. How Freetrack works in ArmAII?

the question at hand....

I said how I believe it works, but you keep the "hidden hack" tone... And now? Any insight or just the usual crap?

:)

Why not just buy TIR 5?? It's the price of two PC games and will let you use it in nearly every flightsim there is + games like ARMA II and certain driving games/sims too.

I have had TIR 3, 4 and now 5 and I must say I am overall very very pleased with it. Definately worth the money. Also, it's very accurate and responsive, and with the track-clip pro with the IR diodes it just sticks to your headset and you can get rid of that silly cap :p

The only downside I can possibly think of with the TIR is that it doesn't like bright light sources, other IR devices or direct sunlight. Myself, I sit with my PC against the West so that in the afternoon I can get some direct sunlight in here from my 9 o Clock position. Even though, the biggest problem is being blinded by the sunlight myself, the Track IR rarely looses track :)

I paid a total of just under 200$ total to get it shipped to Norway, and it arrived within a week :)

Because I don't want.

Why not just you jump in front of a train? I believe it's because you don't want to do that... :)

LOLLLLL :cool:

I don't belive jumping in front of a train has anything whatsoever to do with headtracking, and basicaly was just a really silly thing to say.

I'm going to +1 that one. And pose the statement : Irrelevance?

Have EVERYTHING with headtracking, because is about OPTIONS!

If you two don't understand that, sorry. I like to have OPTION in my life, FREE CHOICES...

I don't want to buy a TiR. And someone maybe don't want to jump in front of a train. Options, choices...

And the "Strike" guy voted NO for support for FT. They don't understand that people MAYBE can make their own choices... I'm not surprised...

mentioned many times Lobi... your poll was poorly worded and you were pegged as using it only to prove your position.

Yes, it's "poorly worded", but we have 83% for FT use in IL-2:CoD, as usual...

I'm proving my position, loser!

Sort of Wolfy, you don't mind me calling you 'Wolfy - (sort of nice and cuddly). There are only a handful of people that actually read it anymore, add the Mods and that number probably doubles - (poor guys having to read the same old stuff all the time)


I was thinking that we could refresh the thread with a 'HT in combat' systems appraisal.
Think of the benefits guys.......


1. It embraces IL1946 - Get in yer cockpit - outmaneouvre your opponent - Kill him!. (and embraces this this thread too, erm, O.K., not the first a last bits)

2. Give the thread a Break, and the Mods, and save server space (at least for one night).


3. An opportunity to use language that a Pilot in Combat used but not appropriate in a forum - e.g, "....take that up your ass you (expletives of choice cuz it will be a private slot)


We can set it up for CRT=2 ...that will sort the hackers out....



Now think of the adavantages, we could return back to the thread and discuss the systems in combat, tactics, strategies, etc, posts like ..........

"the only reason that Fokker Wolf Rider shot my ass to bits was my wing man was useless.,Jeez, how could he not see him, he had a custom Skin with FT HAck slapped on the side.......


or, you never Know, things like.......


" You were so lucky pal, I was leading and lagging you perfectly through your entire rolling scissors - the only reason I screwed up was because the IR leds taped to my baseball cap fell off!


And guess what,,,,,,,,,,it would be DAMNED MORE INTERESTING THAN THIS ENTIRE THREAD and more people would bloody read it!



BTW, Wolfy is Sqdrn leader BLue

OB1 (lobi....good for comms) Sqdrn Ldr Red

Ok analyzing...

"Have EVERYTHING with headtracking, because is about OPTIONS!"

Say what now? What/who HAS* everything with headtracking??? and the reason is about OPTIONS!"? nothing here makes sense!

next sentance:

"If you two don't understand that, sorry. I like to have OPTION in my life, FREE CHOICES..."

You are right, I don't understand a word of you, apology accepted! You like options? Well so do I, FREE CHOICES! is a part of living in a democratic society! This isn't North Korea (poor guys are probably not getting CoD). On the free choices topic, I like to choose between Mars and Snickers, I won't however, accept a free chocolate from a stranger, would you eat that?

Okay, further on:

"I don't want to buy a TiR. And someone maybe don't want to jump in front of a train. Options, choices..."

You are comparing buying track IR to commiting suicide. I can understand why you don't want to buy a track IR then. You should go look at www.naturalpoint.com and read the terms and restrictions etc. There is nothing there saying that if you purchase this product, you have to kill yourself. I choose Track IR, I am alive. (And happy with the product!)

And finally:

"And the "Strike" guy voted NO for support for FT. They don't understand that people MAYBE can make their own choices... I'm not surprised."

You are right, I voted no because I believe that Naturalpoint needs people to buy their products so that they can continue to Cooperate with the simulator developers and "tailor" the 6DOF experience together. Freetrack (to my knowledge) is a free "hack" that tries to simulate the inputs of "Track IR" by using your average webcam. I believe that freetrack is not accurate enough to produce the 6DOF experience we get with TrackIR and so I see no reason for game developers to use their time to add support for freetrack! TrackIR works GREAT with games that support this, but as far as goes for freetrack, I think it is better that the freetrack guys write their own stuff for IL-2: CoD and take responsability to make it compatible, rather than putting the work on Oleg. Just my opinion..

I can see now that you are a complete ignorant about the subject. Why do you vote?

what? ... you don't want people to vote now?

All freetrack does with older games that don't have the encrypted NP api is input values into the game the same way as TrackIR. It does the exact same thing as a generic joystick the only difference being that the HT interface was orginally designed for TrackIR (as it was the only HT device at the time). This imo is not so much a hack but falls under fair usage as there is no other way to interface with the headtracking in these older games.

Even if you think the previous implementation was a 'hack' developers are free to use the freetrack api - This way is definately NOT a hack as if it were no other developer would have implemented it.

I would like to know if you have used freetrack? If you have you may have had bad experiences but with the right setup I can assure you that it is quite impressive and i've had no issues with the quality of the setup (using wii remote at 100fps and a clip I spent a good amount of time perfecting).

The devs do not need to spend any considerable amount of time to implement freetrack as headtracking is already set up, all they need to do is allow access to a few bits of data.

As said before in this thread, the guys that write freetrack don't have to do anything. Freetrack is available for anyone to implement it, everything is there and all it needs is for devs to accept data from it, the program does the rest. It is for us, the FT users or community to try and convince the developers that there is enough demand for it to be worth their time (and it really wouldn't take a lot of time).

I want thet people try to learn about the subject BEFORE vote... But I see now that some of the less than 20% of people that vote against FT support know nothing about the subject.

Very intersting...

Okay, well I have to be honest I have no experience with freetrack, except by reading about how to set it all up and seeing a few youtube vids that, to me, prove it can be quite glitchy. If everybody uses as much time as you to perfect it I can understand you might enjoy it alot! But again, how much did that wiimote cost you? Here it's about half the price of track IR complete setup if you want the nun-chuck. However as interesting as it sounds, one might start speculating if you can use the Kinect camera soon, and drop the IR/reflective parts all together, seeing that microsoft is probably going to drop a SDK for Kinect in the near future. Imagine that, free tracking with ONLY a camera :) Oh and have you ever tried Track IR? One of its best pros have to be that it's very simple to set up :)


Well, I'm sure Oleg and team are aware of the options to tracking devices, but seeing that the entire commercial world (to my knowledge) has opted for Track IR, I don't see why they would consider adding more options for the release! But I wouldn't worry if I were you guys, there has to be a way to just "emulate" track IR input for CoD, regardless of official support. If you ask me wether to add a better pilot animation, or better effect or a vital bugfix for the first patch, or add freetrack support, I think even freetrack users would opt for the game fixes.

[QUOTE=vicinity;228669]

All freetrack does with older games that don't have the encrypted NP api is input values into the game the same way as TrackIR.

[QUOTE=vicinity;228669]


and that was the beginning of the problems... Ft made use of NP property



nooo, it doesn't. MS allows the use of "generic joysticks, much the same as mice and keyboards.



the HT interface is NP property



it is a hack and not "free use" (see Berne convention) "Free use" is allowed when the source isn't financially affected.



No problem there, except FT is a hack tool - which is the problem.



so FT went the route of hacking NP


[QUOTE=vicinity;228669]

The devs do not need to spend any considerable amount of time to implement freetrack as headtracking is already set up, all they need to do is allow access to a few bits of data.

[/QUOTE}


Np is already set up, which FT makes use of



Then there should be no problem with the FT developer/s to present a clean product, which can't hack into NP software, eh?