Your model needs the ppl to be identical, if you were right, communism would work.

In history, freedom was never free.
Also the urge to suppress, to dominate, seems to be in our genetic code, at least for some.

Compare an chipmunk family or a wolf pack.

Maybe war is just part of our evolution. ;)

Funny, I dont know of any free country which achieved this status without bloodshed.
Please explain.

Or, maybe wee should discuss the term "free".
The Taliban f.i. probably consider their system very free(and right).
It all lies in the eye of the beholder.

Btw: I am not a psychopath for sure, but a Machiavellian maybe.

You're saying that ALL wars have been won by killing as many civilians as possible? Obviously that's incorrect.

Well all sides killed civilians, but not all pilots did. And I think there are reasons to distinguish between aggressors and defenders in different conflicts.

I guess we're just going to have to disagree again. Shooting at a madman that's wandering through the streets killing civilians is not a bad thing to do. And there can be occasions when peace will be reached more quickly by killing.

I think I probably agree with your underlying point that it's all too easy for us to judge when we really have no idea about a lot of these things, and it's unfair to judge a lot of it from our armchairs - but we do have the right to judge, that's the point about freedom.

That's just as hard to answer - again all to easy to swagger and say what we'd have done, but until we're put in that position we can't always be sure.

As I've written enough in the other thread, I disagree. And fortunately, so did the allied commanders.

I agree that history is generally distorted by those that have won - but in recent wars around the world, the losers are often equally able to write history books on the subject. If talking about WWII, the Germans are totally free to write history books on it.

There's one born every minute.

Lol, you think Peace is easy to keep? There's never been peace in the world, it can't be that easy. The saying that freedom isn't free doesn't mean that you should have to pay for it, it just means that it's not easy to keep freedom and it does cost you. So when the Polish were free before WWII, and Germany invaded, were the Poles supposed to say 'freedom is free, you lie, please leave'? Obviously they wanted freedom, and to get it they'd have to pay in the form of a war.

There are plenty of wars where I agree with you there, but it is also possible that the poor soul that you're helping is a long way from home. For example, you agree it was right of the Americans to help in Europe in WWII I take it?

Terrorism is certainly not easy to defend against, but are there any examples in history where 'real heartfelt dialog' has worked against terror?

With this type of attitude, why don't you Euro's stop trying to justify the actions of your ancestors by dragging the USA into the conversation all the time. Their is a price for freedom.

Look at the terrible past actions of your own European countries before you try to drag the actions of the USA down to that level. The actions of the US government do not even come close to the atrocities, death, destruction and sheer numbers of killed caused by European countries throughout their history. Unfortunately we were dragged into your dirty business twice in the past century, but at least we were able to stop a third world war. Without the actions of the "terrible" USA you would have all destroyed yourselves (and the world) long ago.

It is because of our money that you are able to sit in relative safety in your homes and even begin to give biased and propaganda opinions about the actions of the USA.

It's only because the USA is so young. You're pretty much all Europeans (if you are white at least) so they were your ancestors too.

Nobody in the western world can claim that they don't have blood on thier hands somewhere along the line.

As for your money.. where did that all come from?

Blimey. I think you should have a nice cup of coffee Shark. Dietger didn't even pick on the US did he? And if he did, what's that got to do with everone else in Europe? Your comments are a bit out of line IMO.

Exactly - except there's no blood on my hands, I won't take responsibility for my ancestors and I don't expect anyone else to take responsibilty or blame for theirs.

Shark, that's too direct and too vehement. Not wrong, just....harsh.

In fairness, I think a lot of Europeans appreciate the US as allies just as we appreciate them. But I do think the anti-US and socialist crowds are growing. We could argue about why, but it wouldn't change the fact.

A lot of Americans felt that way prior to 9/11 too. That tragic event woke up some of them (some are slipping back into their old thought processes now though). Europeans didn't have a 9/11 and have no idea how "personal" our war on terror is to most of us. Many are "with us" but can't appreciate the depth of the hurt and anger....I guess we can't expect them to. It is hard for them to comprehend what 9+ years of foiled attacks here are worth to us.

They say we torture and thus are evil. Most have no idea that three terrorists have been waterboarded and that those interrogations account for more than 50% of our information on Al Qaeda. As for the practice itself, I have gone through it and it's terrible but has no lasting effects.

It's hard people outside of the US to understand we are fighting a group of radicals who would kill us all "over there" rather than "over here". This is much like WWII to us in that respect. We were late to this party too.

Anyway, Shark, I am sure you will get blasted for your comments. I probably will too. That's sad but....does it really matter?

Splitter

i wish we would pull all of our troops and expense out as fast as possible

You're spot on. I live right here right now. If we all had to pay for our ancestors crimes we'd all be in prison for something.

@ theshark : A load of stuff that a bunch of long dead people did a long time ago has nothing to do with the ethics of world war 2 pilots.. And to roll out the 'we saved your asses' routine is also completley idiotic.

Sure, the governments in power aprreciate us (I'm not sure about the "man on the street") but also use us as the "punching bag" to deflect from their own problems. This goes on all the time in the Euro media and the masses fall for it.

Splitter-it doesn't matter what others think. Sometimes the present generations of Euro's need to be reminded of their own history before they obsess with ours.

Lol u just came and kill stealed twice :lol:

And remember Europe has been a mess. In WW1 it was Germany who helped Finland to get independence. In WW2 it was Germany who helped Finland to maintain independence. How did USA help Finland? Did you knew Finland had plans to get a German prince as king of Finland? I bet you did not.

Lol? Without USA I wonder would there be this "war against terrorism" at all :roll: