There's literally thousands of AAA on our missions. If you'd do some research instead of just blabbing off the mouth about stuff you don't know about, you'd also realize there's been many complaints about the sheer number of AAA/Flak we do have. (AKA - people getting shot down by them) The effectiveness of the AAA (which we have improved heavily over default by how we place them and what units) is not our fault. And if you knew anything about the FMB or anything about missions in the online world, you'd also know that airfield sirens do not work and have never worked since IL2COD was released.

Can't wait to see your realistic perfect mission rotations that magically have all the stuff working in game that is broken. Please enlighten us oh mighty keyboard hero..

i dont think anybody is complaining about somebody trying to attack a normally functioning and well defended airfield (as those brittish coastal bases were in that time period), the legitimate complaint is about some online servers being the equivalent of air quake servers tailor made for point whores and then calling themselves "full real"

Please gentlemen can we all just get along? :) It's pointless talking about this it wont change anything. Just get on coms. I never spawned in on a base that is under attack. I just simply ask others for a status its no problem.

And you'd have ATAG change it to suit your desires?

Then there you go... evidence of vulching during WW2 :)

I don't vulch, personally, as I have enough of a problem flying my plane to bother with such tactics. :D I have been at the receiving end a couple of times, mind.

Why doesn't it bother me?

;)

Yeah.. I can see that but there are a whole host of servers to choose.... if people want 'Airquake' let them have it! 'Full Real' is only referring to the game settings, after all. I'm glad that is all it is referring to as, if it wasn't, I'd be dead by now...... just from trying to land. LOL

Such a negative response to a legitimate vocalization of a person's opinion...why? What is your rage issue with people talking about your mission and FMB? Sarcastic quips in a potentially informative post achieve nothing but forum degradation.

The guy obviously has seen a lack of anti-air efficacy, and he isn't the only one. You think maybe there might be an issue?...just maybe?

since you make a sensible civilized statement that addresses one of the issues under discussion, i'll give you the courtesy of doing the same :)

there are multiple solutions possible to the vulching issue which is currently totally disproportionate to historical events. as an initial practical step (presuming of course ATAG is trying to SIMULATE historical events), any of those brittish coastal airbases need to have some form of effective defense that prevents the fake current situation where vultures can camp unchallenged over certain airbases perpetually ( as was clearly not the case historically)

if there is currently no working air raid sirens, then the volume of flak and light AA guns going of at an airbase you spawn to will give enough warning (and increase the risk for those trying to attack them)

Or you could take off from another airbase... seems to be a number of coastal airfields, I cant believe they are all covered by enemy fighters all the time, in fact I know they arent as I havent been vulched much if at all on ATAG.

Actually.... I'd like to complain also. I keep getting shot down by AAA when flying on your server. I don't think it is kind and I don't think it is fair. I suggest that, next time I fly on ATAG, you gift me with an indestructible 109 complete with miniature atom bomb and lasers...... just to even things out as I feel well rotten! I really do! ;)

May I ask you why, specifically, you are against vulching? Is it because you are getting killed too frequently while taking off, or because you are tired of everyone being over the same area for an entire mission while objectives lay incomplete? Or something else entirely?

I'm the latter.

Either way its not ATAG or any other server operators fault if people wont play the objectives...

People don't play the objectives because a lot are pre-occupied with base defending/attacking. This makes the objectives just like attacking AI in an SP quick mission when there's a very low chance of encountering another player, it gets boring and a lot don't want to do that when playing online.

What gets me about this whole "Vulching ruins the game" brou-ha is this.....

I am not immune to the odd session of Battlefield. I know... that is a big thing to admit to on a Simulator forum but... hey... coming out takes guts! lol

There have been times, in the many iterations of that series, where I have spawned in only to see enemy copters over head, tanks firing left, right and center, soldiers running over the hills towards me.... bang... dead! I respawn.... bang... dead! I respawn again and manage to last 5 minutes...etc

I find that hilarious! I enjoy that 'Custer's last stand'/ Ragnarok feeling. :D Meanwhile the chat window is filled with endless moaning and crying......

Why can't people just chill out and enjoy this game? If it upsets you so much, switch to a different server... or a different airfield for that matter! Play again later, perhaps... it's not like ATAG, for example, is just a vulchfest 24/7, is it? Or... try taking off before the enemy and vulching them? :D

As I said before take off faster. That will solve his problem.

In the beginning, when i was flying the first time on ATAG server i was vulched too. Most of the time it was the same player! I wrote here to change the rules on ATAG. After a little time i took it as a part of the game! Me for myself do not vulch, i wait till the enemy is in the air then i do attack! So the enemy has a chance to survive!:cool:

I guess my issue with that statement is any experience I have had with ATAG, Blue is hard after the objectives, and generally I can find enemies to fight around those targets...

It is a free market economy....ATAG is the most populated server whenever I fly...their PayPal donations exceed their monthly need each month that I have ever looked at it on their website....thus I don't think Vulching is a very big issue for most pilots.

I have never been vulched at a Blue base. I only bomb the Red airbases with JU-88, I can't even strafe, since they have no guns.

Just to be clear, any surplus is carried in full to the next month and the person who rents the server is out of pocket a significant amount each month, which he does by choice, at the moment.

Septic.

Which is no doubt attributed to the fact that blues have a wide range of bombers to choose from, reds only have the blenheim at their disposal.

DO you mean Red's dont like the bomber they have and want more variety? Otherwise the numbers available are the same are they not?

Is it safe to assume *most* (not all, don't wanna go generalizing anything because people start crying) pro-vultures are primarily blue pilots?

I'm noticing that trend.

I would tend to agree with you on that point, but remember, reds tend defend and don't venture over.

I welcome reds vulchering the blue bases anytime, saves me the trip...

Funny how the biggest vulcher is a red pilot :rolleyes:

What is a "biggest vulcher" and who has earned this seemingly prestigious title?

That is true! I think, in all my time flying in this game, I have only seen 4 red pilots on the axis side of the channel (Incidentally, they vulched me. LOL).... most of the time it is us blue pilots who do all the travelling and the red pilots just circle around the same old airfields... and that is the story on every server that uses the channel map I have flown on.

Why is that anyway? Come on over to occupied France, Allies! The ground textures and shading are much nicer over here! None of that radioactive green! :D Plus.. you haven't seen 'Noddy Towns' till you've seen some on the continent...... and, if you have ever been to mainland Europe in real life..... you know they are pretty realistic. :D

This thread is FREAKING HILARIOUS! :lol:

People whining about "honor" and "chivalry" as if this is a medieval jousting tournament, and wanting a magic safe zone over top of air bases.

Do you guys also complain when someone comes in from above you? Because it's not fair? Should all dogfights start with both pilots at the exact same speed and altitude, and a head-on pass so both pilots have a chance to see each other?

There's a server for 1946 that has easy-mode rules like a magical safe zone around the bases. It's called Spits vs 109s, and they will kick/ban you if you fly over top of a base (even if you're at 9000m). They're a joke outside their insular little community, because most folks realize that their rules promote careless play and an attitude of entitlement.

There was no magical force-field in real life. There was no deflector shield on the runway at Folkestone. Why do you want one? This isn't Tag, or Go To Rome like we used to play on the playground. There is no "home free" in air combat; why do you want one?

Chivalry and honor in air combat died well before the end of the first world war, and anyone who isn't wilfully deceiving themselves knows it.

If you're not zooming in from above on an unsuspecting target, then quite frankly you're doing it wrong.

Ok, let´s have a look available to the Blues:

Fighterbomber 109E3/B, 109E4/B, which after release is a fighter and you can engage in a dogfight. so if you want to do a lil bit of blasting and fighting at the same time, it is one of your choices.

Divebomber JU-87, while not as powerful in a climb as the 109, after release it´s quite agile and if you know how to handle it, it can engage in a dogfight, esp. with current fm.

Destroyer 110C-4, 110C-7, oh what a beautiful runway, let´s make it more beautiful by dropping 2 500kg eggs. Oh what, you didn´t like my eggs, have a lil taste of my cannons then, maybe that´s more to your liking.

Levelbomber HE-111, JU-88, that factory has to go!

There is a bomber for each and every type of player out there on the blue side, whereas the reds are just stuck with their blenheim. And yes there are of course passionate blenny pilots, but nothing for players, who would like to fly something like a stuka, destroyer, fighterbomber.

S!

Is it safe to assume *most* (not all, don't wanna go generalizing anything because people start crying) whiners who insist that everyone only plays the way that the whiners want are primarily red pilots?

I'm noticing that trend.

Here is me getting "vulched" as I come in for a landing... I was minding my own business, I was delivering some tea and crumpets to so lovely British ladies, and to add insult to injury someone tried to drop some bombs on my head... it was all quite rude...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_rKBkiAWyA

I keep seeing messages on the text bar saying that aircraft have been shot down by flak.
I protest.
There is obviously too much flak above the bases.

That's not strictly true pstyle, there are too many bases under the flak. That's what it is. ;)

S! Keller,
I want to say first that I would not like to see any artificial restrictions on how players are to "fly". Rules as shown in other servers like puting bonfires near an airfield and stating that the next 5 square miles is off limits for attacking IMHO is unrealistic and a large impact on the suspension of disbelief. I support ATAG's general approach to their server. I do have opinions though, as do others, on possible ways to alleviate some issues.

So switching to bombers and attacking bombers; I do so love the challenge of the hunt for those bombers that are human piloted. Many times I pass up the AI bomber flights in my quest to locate the human flown bomber. I have to think about what targets are available in England, what type the bomber is, what will be the pilots strategy, what will be his tactics to realize his strategy and so forth. Many times I have been in one place on the map to find the target at the other end of the map is being bombed.

I sometimes take a flight to where I know the bombers take off from in the hopes of seeing one inbound or outbound. I refrain from attacking any bombers on the ground but would rather catch them in the air. Doc has successfully evaded me by flying through the cloud layers. I've learned the possible routes and set up barcaps in the general area they may cross. The bomber pilots are now wise to this and are taking other routes. Also, with the addition of high altitude bombing, the barcap becomes more problematic.

What I would suggest for the ATAG server regarding bombers flights would be to: Open up a few more blue airbases where the heavies can take off from. I know the two main blue bases now and the moment I see a heavy in the net stats list, I'm heading to intercept before the pilot has got his engines started. More airfields makes it harder for me to figure out where the attack is coming from.

I would also like to see a couple of more airbases for the Red side for Blenheim flights. I don't think that Blue heavies take off from coastal airfields and having a Blenheim base on the coast and in close proximity to furball city Hawkinge, is somewhat problematic. Perhaps even discouraging some to even try to fly the Blenheim to targets. Could you assign valid targets for some blue airfield hangars for reds to attack as this would be somewhat historic. Even deep into France.

So Keller and other Blue Bomber pilots, I do enjoy the hunt for you guys and will continue to do so as best I can. Hopefully some tweaks might help to improve Blue bomber odds for making it across the channel. But, when you reach the shores of Old Blighty - all bets are off. :)

Looking forward to future "Cat" and Mouse games.

S! and good flying!

Real astute, constructive response to my observation there. And I'm the one getting ganged up on for being a troll.

You want to make generalizations about blue pilots? I'll make some of my own about red pilots.

How bout them apples?

If a red pilot and a blue pilot had sex, would they have a purple baby?

That's racist.

They would have a miracle as I don't know any female pilots, blue or red.

Only if the purple baby wasnt allowed to play on the ATAG server....

Hey Cats, good input re more/widely spaced heavy bomber fields for both sides. Even if the physical placements are too problematic at present with the current map and FMB quirks (don't know, just sayin'), we could possibly look at different air start locales instead as a temporary work around.

I just didn't like your accusatory tone, is all.

J/K :grin:

Thats it!!!

Black powder pistols at 15,000 ft. :) :)

S! right back at you Cats!

The mental game between bomber pilots and the fighters seeking to intercept them is just another element of fun that this sim brings. If I see Catseye in the server I know he'll be looking for me, so I never take the same route twice. My job is to stay one move ahead until the "check" that is dropping my bombs, and the "check-mate" that is getting back home.

Keep up the hunt Cats!

If there is a female pilot she will be blue, hot and a 109 driver.

Then CoD MP blue side will have an unmanned drone in its inventory.

Manged to get this screenshot last night..
http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/24527.jpg

Ah yes! Harmony, Destiny and ermmm....the others. Or was her name Dysentry? I was so jealous of the Captain when I was a kid. Fit bunch of pilots the Angels were. ;)

Destiny, Symphony, Rhapsody, Melody and Harmony.

Yes indeedy...the first puppets i fancied.. followed by

http://random-squeegee.com/images/creepy_zelda.jpg

Zelda from the Terrahawks. A lovely lady I do declare.

Marina from Stingray was the perfect woman though, I always thought.

I do notice there is quite a lot of flak at ATAG RAF fields but it isn't very effective (a CoD issue not a mission design issue I think). And the RL Ack at Tangmere didn't do much good when the Stukas arrived on 16th August 1940 although I think about 9 or 10 were shot down by Spitfires and Hurricanes.

Also amusing is that whilst it was Manston that was hit the hardest and most often including 109 strafing attacks (it happened to Deere when he was landing there) until it was eventually abandoned for operations, it doesn't happen much on ATAG, those lazy Blues take the short route to Hawkinge. Realistic? To some extent yes. Hawkinge is CoD's Manston and is almost unuseable on some nights, just like Manston became. Anyone expecting to fly from Hawkinge and get a clear run is being very optimistic.

So, complaining about poor Ack and strafing not being historical is not entirely correct and these are in any case examples of what cannot be avoided on a public server where everyone comes and goes as they like.

Another thing, I don't know if you do zapatista but anyone flying alone is absolutely 'unhistorical', they would never have done that back then. So, fake? Well if it is it's only because people do it! Also RAF units were frequently already flying when their airfields were attacked (not always of course). So its impossible to create a historical public server where people just come and go, fly on their own and then cry 'foul' because it isn't like the BoB. The closest you may get is to fly with a Squadron from a field not being attacked and attempt the mission objectives.

It is what it is and if ATAG can't reproduce strictly historical defences and if its boring then I can only suggest, with the best intentions, that you do try doing something different, like teaming up (ATAG have a TS server), use an inland airfield and searching for the Blues who are increasingly going for their objectives (and ignore the few that really do vulch). Its just a shame the radar doesn't work better so we could intercept those dastardly blues that fly low and hit their objectives.

Many many other posts I could reply to but the answer to most is generally in the previous paragraph.

Regarding CoD Reds not bothering to go to France and always circling the same fields, that's because:
a) the theme of the BoB was to defend against Bombers coming to England (they never had time to go to France and take on those huge bomber and 109 formations although 56 do in CoD to intercept the bombers early..... because we know they will have no escorts)
and
b) we know that's where most Blues are coming to most of the time and we do sometimes get ... ahem.... sucked into the dogfights.

EDIT: And ATAG are trying some new ideas with missions being called up by the players.

Yea and Parker was blatantly having fun with Penelope in that pink moving king size bed Thunderbird styleee

Logic, reason, and level-headedness? I don't think you're allowed to do that, sir.

I'm going to have to write you a citation for this.

Achtung: Marlena Deitrich aka the Blue Angel at 4,000 M. No shooting from the six postion!!

Good post klem. Would like to note the unhistorical significance of having 20+ RAF airborne and only a handful of them on coms.

Or a squad on a second and reachable TS server without having to disconnect and go look it up then connect to it while in the middle of a mission.

What is it about the exclusiveness that is so important that makes your mates so insignificant?

I wish Hugh Dowding was alive today to give his opinion about this. Demand historical!

But only to a point.

Thanks for reminding me to revisit the ATAG donation page.:twisted:

Hey, any donations are greatly appreciated....but our strongest wish is that you log on, have fun, and tell us about it! :)

"What is it about the exclusiveness that is so important that makes your mates so insignificant?" ??

I don't understand.

Just ignore it Klem, the ATAG are rabid today.

Going to refrain from trying to answer posts in here seriously , but watch this from 10.50 to 11.33 (or watch all of it..it's from an interesting 20 episode series).
Base suppression existed from the very start of the war till the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x37BVCvFRk

Video can't be watched, as it is private.

Should be fixed now, let me know if it isn't and I'll make it public in youtube settings.

11 pages for a thread where the question was answered within the first page?

Pstyle: "I don't operate from Hawkinge, there is ALWAYS a fight over Hawkinge. It's probably the easiest problem to avoid."

The coastal airports are obvious targets, don't spawn there unless you're confident in your air support buddies or you think you're awesome enough to start up, take off and shoot down a bf109 that is constantly making passes on you.

It's your choice.

Yup

you should watch that video a bit more closely and pay attention to the commentator, because it says exactly the opposite of what you seem to believe

it describes the brittish early part of the war as having a "highly accurate early warning system" with "accurate up to the minute information on enemy plane activity". it also just speaks of organized bombing raids on enemy airfields, but it doesnt say anything about having perpetually little swarms of lone nazi fighter planes camping over undefended brittish airfields as a war strategy, and them then have them shoot up any allied plane that tries to taxi. and all this without a single AA gun going off, no sirens, no warning calls at the brittish base ?

the legitimate complaint by the OP refers to that last scenario, not planned and organized raids by multiple enemy planes on a brittish airfield to try and shut it down for a number of days, or even the lone suicidal enemy fighter trying his luck by doing a quick strafing run at an enemy airfield while on his way home. if a lone fighter tried this, he would be met with some amount of AA and quickly warning sirens/signals would go off at the airfield. and if he was camping over an enemy airfield (not really possible in real life) he would be quickly spotted and reported to be present (and attract some nearby friendly fighters to dislodge him), none of which is the case on the ATAG server

the issue is to presumably try and recreate a historical setting as much as possible, not reward with points an air-quake type behavior that detracts from this. its also not an issue about "making players do what somebody else wants", its about creating a setting on a server that mimics historical events, so most players will gravitate to more realistic gameplay styles (and let the odd fool who wants to try and camp over an airfield be, flak will normally take care of him soon enough (and so would other nearby friendly fighters that get vectored to him)

right now on ATAG its the opposite, it creates undefended forward airfields with no warning systems, and rewards point whores for creating an air quake "anti new joiners" scenario.

This>>>Best advice ever... Get on to teamspeak and instead of going it alone cooperate and communicate with your team. A number of times I have come back from a patrol to help clear an airfield when under attack from vulching because some has mentioned it on comms.

This way you know ahead of time to spawn from another base.

I would love for sirens to sound and a bit more AA fire but they have to balance gameplay performance vs realistic scenarios until the multiplayer code is further optimised, or people like Wolf find ways in the mission scripting to do things more efficiently.

For now its not a show stopper and moving bases or getting on comms is an easy solution.

PS... Please ATAG at least put a siren on the bases if you can! ;)

Phat would a few Jericho sirens do :P

:( Not quite the sirens I had in mind! :)

What on earth are you actually talking about?

-perpetually little swarms of lone nazi fighter planes camping over undefended brittish airfields

In my many hours on ATAG, most of the time there isn't a single 109 strafing grounded planes.
When flying red I mostly take off from Hawkinge or Littlestone, just because I can. And doing that I've maybe been strafed while taxiing or taking off 5 times.
Also, swarm = a great number (of insects or other small creatures) moving together: lone = being alone; without company or accompaniment; solitary; unaccompanied. So which is it?


-and all this without a single AA gun going off

Euhm whaaaat? If you spawn in you should look at the sky at times and listen to your headset/speakers. Because I sure do see lots and lots of black and grey smokepuffs all around the base when a enemy is near and even hear the AA guns firing en masse.


-no sirens

As has been explained to you in this very thread...Sirens don't function in the game (yet). So how exactly is this ATAG's fault?


-no warning calls

Again as has been said..get on Teamspeak and you will get loads of warnings, or be able to warn friendlies who then can avoid said airbase or come to your aid. If 50% of pilots bothered to use teamspeak this problem would be nonexistent.


- if he was camping over an enemy airfield (not really possible in real life) he would be quickly spotted and reported to be present (and attract some nearby friendly fighters to dislodge him), none of which is the case on the ATAG server

Hmm, vulchers do attract lots of attention and don't last long at all. They get chewed up by a combination of AA and Spitfires within minutes.


-and let the odd fool who wants to try and camp over an airfield be, flak will normally take care of him soon enough (and so would other nearby friendly fighters that get vectored to him)

Would you be willing to fly a 109(or a Spit over Pihen) 5 times and record your average time till death while circling below 1000m over an active airbase? Please report here with a video and show us how many hours it takes till you run out of fuel. ;)


- rewards point whores for creating an air quake "anti new joiners" scenario.

Really so statwhores just want kills and don't care about dying repeatedly. In my experience statwhores are the ones who go into crazy diatrebes when they die by something they consider unfair.
And ATAG being "anti new joiners"? So that's why the players there happily respond to questions about vulching, CEM, navigation, gunnery, tactics and so forth. As well as ask newbies to join TS to walk them through their problems and spend hours getting them up to speed both on the server and their forums. Never knew I misunderstood the meaning of anti all my life, or maybe you are the one confused about it?


The RAF struggled with base attacks early on aswell and had to adapt.
If the players of this sim start working together, capping their airfields and using their radio (TS) the problem will become even smaller than it is allready.
Or you could add so much AA and AI fighter CAP till the mission runs at 3FPS even when you are in singleplayer.
I guess is the latter is the better solution of the two since it doesn't involve any active effort from the players and has no downsides?

Good post, Warhound. I think part of the problem with the flak question is perception. If I am being vulched at Hawkinge I curse the lack of AA gunners (or their poor accuracy) and yet if I am in a 109 I will actively avoid Hawkinge because of the heavy flak which can tear you up.

Having said that, the AA could be better (i.e. more of it) but if the mission builders add more AA there are complaints about slowdowns around Hawkinge.

Put a shout out on comms mate someone will help. Even a text msg advertising a target would get attention. "vulcher at manston" 71st will help if nearby

Swarm behaviour, or swarming, is a collective behaviour exhibited by animals of similar size which aggregate together, perhaps milling about the same spot or perhaps moving en masse or migrating in some direction. As a term, swarming is applied particularly to insects, but can also be applied to any other animal that exhibits swarm behaviour. The term flocking is usually used to refer specifically to swarm behaviour in birds, herding to refer to swarm behaviour in quadrupeds, shoaling or schooling to refer to swarm behaviour in fish. Phytoplankton also gather in huge swarms called blooms, although these organisms are algae and are not self propelled the way animals are. By extension, the term swarm is applied also to inanimate entities which exhibit parallel behaviours, as in a robot swarm, an earthquake swarm, or a swarm of stars.

From a more abstract point of view, swarm behaviour is the collective motion of a large number of self-propelled entities.[1] From the perspective of the mathematical modeller, it is an emergent behaviour arising from simple rules that are followed by individuals and does not involve any central coordination.

-Wiki

As been said already the game has matured a lot since the last patch if we're in here complaining about tactics on one server rather than patch performance. Great job development team!

I think all that has come of this thread is detail that us Red guys aren't doing as good a job as the blue guys, if they are holding air over our coastal air fields then we need to coordinate better.

If people have proven that even good coordination cannot clear people over our air fields, then politely ask the ATAG to look at the defenses over these bases. As far as defenses, I dont really see that as being an issue as I dont see anyone just calmly circling over these airfields, and I for one have launched from these airfields without incident, even when FLAK is bursting about.

As for Vulching as a play style? Only time I can seriously see it as an issue is if the sides are way lopsided in favor of the vulcher, but even then, they can only cover so many airfields. When the teams are even, its a tactic to take a strategic advantage over an area, if some people play this style with the soul purpose of padding their stats, well whatever turns their cranks I suppose. Every game/sim has a short coming that people will try to take advantage of, this is one for flight sims. It wont be going away anytime soon. So adapt.

And lastly, for those that would downplay the importance of quality servers like ATAG, spend some time setting up a dedicated server, even as a test for yourself, and add to it, set up a mission to go with that, get it all working, visible online and in working order. I think then you will see there is a lot of effort into what they give us, not to mention the extras like stats and conversions for tracks to give outside views. 1C has not made hosting a stable server the easiest thing (what is it with sims and the lack of quality dedicated server software anyways), I have messed with the dedicated server and got one up and running, its not that fun, and I cant imagine keeping it going 24/7.

S!

I mostly fly blue, but have now couple of times gone to red side as blue had greater numbers. About a week ago on ATAG I was flying with couple of squad mates, we had no trouble of getting airborne from Hawkinge. Sure, we got in action right away, which was all good. No need for the long trip over the channel :) .. After clearing sky from most of the harassing 109s we got a bit alt and then took the fight bit further from the coast. Scratched a couple of incoming AI bombers while at it too.

Please allow me to retort...

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...809_143520.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...809_143525.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...809_143603.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...809_143631.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...809_143651.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...809_143827.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/a...809_143906.jpg


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

WE NEED BARRAGE BALLOONS!!!! That will stop blue dead in their tracks... big balloons!!!

I believe Mr Avro should be awarded the Distinguished Cookie Cross.

+1

So what's the general consensus as regards Ginger Crunch Creams then? :confused: