AJW is a self admitted Marxist. His post mirrors his politics. Global Warming to him is a politicall issue.

Marxists hate capitalism, the military, the police etc. Are you an exception AJW?

Best Regards,
MB_Oil_Platform.

That is an AWESOME idea. Let's carry it even further. If I don't believe in education, I don't have to pay taxes for that. If I don't believe in war, I don't have to pay taxes for the military. If I don't believe it's a good idea to travel, I don't pay taxes for roads. That is friggin brilliant.

I even have a few good examples of countries that are run that way.

Somalia

Afghanistan

Those places must be friggin AWESOME!!!

You obviously missed my point David.

Anyway back to Glaciers.

Ok then so all the glaciers are melting. Much of the North of Britian used to be covered in snow and ice a long time ago - upto 1km thick! When the world population was small. How come when the world population was so small compared to now this ice and snow was already in retreat?

There are lots of natural reasons for warm and cold periods. There are changes in solar activity, there is volcanic activity, and there are also changes in sea currents. Right now the heating appears to be the result of humans. At least that's what the scientists are saying.

No, I got your point exactly. You don't want to pay for things you don't believe in. To which I say, move your @ss to Somalia.

I agree with this first half, these are all good ideas.

O, maybe thats why I dont agree or at least Im not convinced because I am a layman. Are you a scientist David?


I don't speak the language. You should at least speak the language of the country you move to its only respectful. Besides, I get sun burned easily.

Right... just like the "relevant section of the scientific community" from four decades ago was convinced that same thing about global cooling.


"World Exclusive: CIA 1974 Document Reveals Emptiness of AGW Scares, Closes Debate On Global Cooling Consensus"
http://omnologos.com/world-exclusive...us-and-more-2/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUYnHxtFYlM

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/...al-cooling.jpg


http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/...big-freeze.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/...g-freeze-2.jpg

But none are happening at the moment. The driving force at the moment appears to be the result of huge amounts of CO2 being released into the atmosphere. Do you have any idea who, or what, might be doing that right now?

I hate to break it to you, but Time magazine articles are rarely printed in scientific journals.

Speaking of overwhelming scientific consesus, it wasn't long ago that the overwhelming scientific consensus was that plate tectonics was nonsense. :)

What is lacking in the global warming debate is data, plain and simple.

RedToo.

You can learn it.

Actually, the data is overwhelming. The planet definitely warming.

If scientists find that global warming is nonsense, then our policies should change in the same manner as they did with plate tectonics.

Volcanoes?


...and why is there no data? Surely to prove some scientific you need lots of data from different sources which are all releated?

"A team of scientists led by geochemist Zunli Lu from Syracuse University in New York state, has found that contrary to the ‘consensus’, the ‘Medieval Warm Period’ approximately 500 to 1,000 years ago wasn’t just confined to Europe.


In fact, it extended all the way down to Antarctica – which means that the Earth has already experience global warming without the aid of human CO2 emissions."

http://thegwpf.org/science-news/5306...new-study.html


Note that I'm not saying the planet isn't warming right now.
My question is: Is their proof that the current 'warming trend' is caused by human activity, and not something that happened naturally like the ‘Medieval Warm Period’?

Your mind restricts your thought possibilities

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...l20warming.jpg

Volcanoes can pump huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. They can also cool the planet in the short term by blasting lots of dust into the air.

No, my mind is restricted by serious science. Do you ever consider why the stuff you're posting isn't taken seriously by real scientists?

More than all of the man made sources put together according to the documentary i put up, which by the way was made by channel 4 and was aired very ealy in the morning, 03:00 Hrs if I recall... I remember having to stay up to watch it.

Right so you'll admit then that we live in a complex system with checks and balances, which when roughly measured is of a slow fluctation over the course of millenia's. There are lot's of factors to measure into said cooling and raising of tempratures. It's far too complex for a fluid dynamics model. We have had cooling and raising of tempratures before and we will have them when we're no longer here on this planet as a species. The climate is rising from the the last "mini ice age" and will continue to warm until meets the "medieval warm period average". That the indrustrial revolution happened at the sametime of this warming has not been addressed by the so called climate experts you seem to know very well .....................................

That would be a great argument against humans being responsible, except that volcanic activity has not increased. So that ain't it.

Yes, there are lots of factors. And right now the driving factor appears to be humans. I'm quite confident that climatologists have taken "mini ice ages" and "industrialization" into consideration.

Yea but volcanoes emit clossal amounts compared to people...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/infobeautifu...s_volcanos.png

Thats 1 Volcano ^


So at first look you think - Holy ****! Those planes! Then you think, Hang on... How many active volcanoes in the world? Theres only Europe!

Right where is your evidence .....................................

Average annual CO2 from volcanos is only about 1% of what humans generate globally for CO2. While volcanos can certainly spew lots of stuff into the air when erupting, normally they are insignificant compared to human CO2 made output. CO2 from ice cores indicates a massive increase of atmospheric CO2 levels that coincide with the industrial revolution. This indicates almost certainly that human pertroleum use is responseable.

How many active volcanoes in the world?

From some website - http://www.volcano.si.edu/faq/index.cfm?faq=03

The only thing I can think of is when they say each year they meean a vent on a volcano and when the say each decade they mean a magmatically connected system having eruptions from any of its vent - hence the number is smaller. However I am only guessing. Also I speculate the reason 20 are errupting "as we read" is because some never really stop, like - Stromboli

The SO2 from volcanos probably does more damage than the trivial amounts of CO2 they release.

I agree that the earth appears to be warming, however there is no data that proves it is. There is also currently no way to use what information we have to predict the future climate of the planet.

Burt Rutan puts over a good case:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/1...imate-skeptic/

RedToo.

My understanding is that we're due an ice age, and human activity is merely putting it off, if human activity is making any difference whatsoever, and that hasn't been determined. Eco stuff makes great news but get into the detail and nothing is proven yet.

I'm all for global warming and melting ice caps. By the time it's finished my house on a hill will be by the beach!

Hood

we live in a world of air conditioning from the mid 70's
normal summer is now global warming to us

This is by far worse! You cant breath SO2 but you breath CO2 everyday.

Avro, you are a ******* moron. Troll elsewhere.

Originally Posted by David Hayward:
There are lots of natural reasons for warm and cold periods. There are changes in solar activity, there is volcanic activity, and there are also changes in sea currents. Right now the heating appears to be the result of humans. At least that's what the scientists are saying.

I agree with everything you say, except "Right now the heating appears to be the result of humans. At least that's what the scientists are saying."

They aren't - some climatologists are saying that and some business people are saying that. Scientists who base their beliefs on data are not saying that.

RedToo.

True

But the real reason behind it all is not MORE GOVERNMENT REVENUE.. it is all about MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL

Changes in global temperatures are normal..

Thinking man had anything to do with it STARTING it, or worse yet, thinking we could do anything to STOP it is just plane silly.

The good news is more and more people are waking up to this hoax..

10 years ago, had you said what you said above in a forum you would have been unanimously labeled as a crack pot..

But what with all the data tampering discovered in the last few years by the so called 'scientist' the numbers of those who once believed in it are diminishing and thus only a handful still try and blame man for it instead of the big orange ball that shows up in the sky each day! ;)

You seem to be missing the point (no surprise there). The temp is rising. That means there is a source that is increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. If volcanic activity is not increasing, the CO2 must be coming from somewhere else.

David, I think you're wasting your time here. This lot are not only ignorant, but proud of it...

Yes, they are. It's not "some" who are saying it, it's almost all of them.

The sun yes ......................... and still no post from you showing your evidence that definitively puts man as the culprit .................

My (slightly mad messsianic christian) ex-girlfriend is doing a masters in sustainable agricultural which according to the standards of this thread makes her a climate expert.

Now according to her if Climate Change was real then God would have mentioned it in the bible. Furthermore science got evolution totally wrong so how can we trust it on climate change.

She is also unhappy climate change legislation may cost her money so she is generally opposed to it on principle.

Only 'slightly'?

This isn't science class and I'm not your teacher. You'll have to look up the evidence ion your own. I'm just telling you what the scientific consensus is.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that climatologists did not ignore the sun as a possible cause.

Actually a lot of models Freeman Dyson was on about, which you discredited out of hand, didn't factor in the sun's output, the clouds, dust in the atmosphere, the carbon sinks and the general biomass of the planet.

OK but what if CO2 isn't actually effecting anything significantly?

Computer models are not the only evidence of global warming. They are nothing but a tool to try to predict how bad it will get. Again, Dyson is NOT an expert. Stop trolling.

Indeed. It could be the tooth fairy. But climatologists seem to think it's important, so it's probably a good idea to listen to them.

And the figures have been doctored to suit their personal agendas so the model they're running looks right and get that government grant of course ...........................

http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0817-nasa_snafu.html

Look up "Climategate" on google ..................

Listen mate the only one trolling is now you ................. call me that again and I'll report you to the mods ........

Sparky, virtually every glacier on the planet is disappearing. Unless there are bunch of scientists melting them with hair dryers every night, that isn't something that can be doctored.

Just out of curiosity, have you stopped to consider why climatologists aren't changing their positions after "climategate"?

Interesting. So it's ok for you to call me a troll, but I can't do the same to you?

You bleedin started it mate ................ and I'm not, never have or will troll. Period. But what gets me is you constantly calling me one .................

the earth is a closed system. 3 forms matter -> liquid, solid gas. the supply of carbon-> finite. we burn the carbon. it goes from liquid (petrol/oil) to gas CO2. Plants absorb the carbon gas and the carbon turns into solid. it is really lame such simple concept that I learned in preschool has been a bastardized and manipulated into one of the greatest frauds in human history. the phd jump in an say, well, its the ratio that will destroy the planet and end civilization. no, it doesn't matter. you are fraud shitzter trying to exploit, mr phd. go read "limits to growth" that came out in 1970. stupidest book on the planet. even if it is warming, for whatever reason, this means even more plants to absorb the carbon and new equilibrium because the system is closed. everyone go plant a lawn or garden if your that worried about it. stop spreading lies and deviance. my last words on this.

David, are you a scientist? do you have a degree in any scientific fields?

Do you have any evidence to provide to this community about the subject that you are so passionatly fighting for with your 1-2 line sentences?

I just dont see how you can sit here and say that scientific articals on global warming, writen by actual scientists are a load of crud, and then say you beleive in global warming because thats what scientist have told you.


Anyways, it makes me laugh that we are all worried by "global warming", and how it is going to destroy the human race, and how badly we are all in danger and throw billions of dollars down the drain towards fixing , yet, they still dont have a clue how to stop this apparent threat after all this. we are soo concerned with this crap, that we forget about the millions of sick, starving ppl in third world countries, and homeless who could damn well use food, shelter and medical supplies. Im pretty sure "Global warming" means exaclty jack to them.

Really? Look at page 7.

Degree in mathematical sciences. Not that it matters. Even a poet can understand the scientific process.

Well then look up the climate-gate scandal and tell me there hasn't been a major cock-up by the so called experts you vociferiously are defending. Commendable for yourself but the figures have been proven to be FLAWED ..........................

I'm familiar with "climategate". The scientists were vindicated in a review. The planet was so impressed that the last 12 months were the hottest recorded since we started keeping records.

Actually those figures have recently changed as well as the period from 1920-1930 beat the records for the 1990's as the hottest years ........

And yet the world's glaciers continue to disappear...

Here's somthing that cracks me up about the glaciers melting theory. It was slammed all over the papers and news that the resulting catastrophy of these melting glaciers would result in most of the pacific islands dissapearing under the ocean by several feet by 2010... even meters, as a result of the melt... yet they are still there..... but yes, the average water height has lifted by a mear 1.2mm.......... poor islanders.

Walshy does have a point about the temperature records. Our temp records only go back about the last 100 - 110 years or so. And even things you hear like average temps breaking records made in 1970's, or 1950's, or even longest consecutive days at high temps not beating 1908 records, certainly does put things into prospective and make you ask if it is true or not.

MY GOD! i just fugured it out...... they arnt melting! their evaporating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This has got to be the most pointless thread that's been allowed on this forum. People cant even agree how to measure 'True airspeed' vs 'Indicated airspeed', or even whether or not 100octane was used throughout fighter command by the RAF in summer 1940, and yet we have a vitriolic argument raging about a planetary ecosystem:rolleyes:

Yes I'm not disputing that, they are retreating, indeed they are, but the doom and gloom mongerers are blaming man for it when there are too many other factors in the whole equation that are also contributing to the retreat. Solar activity has increased in the last twenty years, flares and sunspots, I'm an amatuer astronomist, a member of a club in fact and it's a fact that solar activity has increased in output. The pendulum will swing the other way and fluctation cycle continues. The glacial period we are currently in, yes I said glacial period as a "glacial period" is signified by having a polar ice cap on both poles, is currently experiencing a warming phase. The warming at the end of the last maximum extant was dramatic and pronounced so much so that the north sea that separates the island of Great Britain from the rest of the continent, the flooding of Doggerland, has been postulated to happening within four or five generations by archeologists studying that period. So the warming we are experiencing now is small fry compared to that sudden and very dramatic climate change ......................

The opinions of those on this thread are irrelevant. The scientific consensus is that anthropogenic climate change is occurring, and that it will have serious consequences. All the crap about 'conspiracies' and 'cover ups' won't change that one iota. Either the scientists are wrong, or the crackpots. I know who I'd put my money on...

Andy scientific consenus on anthropogenic climate change took a bullet to the head, common parlance (joke) :), with the climate gate scandal and they've been treading water and trying to claw back credability ever since. And of course you're right our opinions on this thread are irrevelant, yes the climate has warmed at the poles and Greenland, and glacial experts can prove glacial maximums and retreats even without the human factor. It's there in the fossil record, the ice cores, the Irish bog oak samples, etc., I could go on. What's in dispute is this current slight warming blip as man's fault, and that's yet to be proved ................

*this^

Nothing we post here matters. Hopefully people will start listening to the scientists.

The was no 'climate gate scandal' All there was was an attempt to concoct one out of selective quotation from stolen e-mails. You've been had...

Ah not this .............. sorry when they put they're money and show the real figures well then we'll listen, shrug our shoulders and say, "And no wonder you changed the figures!" And we'll go back to our lives and never worry about it again .........................

Andy I haven't been had, they DID doctor the results ......................

Nope. You were the victim of an orchestrated campaign to discredit science (to a large extent, led by Fox). There have been multiple enquiries, and the scientists have been vindicated in all of them. These are the facts. But don't take my word for it, check for yourself. Find me a single reliable neutral source that supports the claims of 'falsification of data'. There aren't any.

A cow does on overage release between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2).

EAT COWS!

http://pinegrovemarket.com/cart/images/filet_mignon.jpg

Ok, I take your counter thrust on the chin. Can you provide links to the reports on the enquiries so I can read them. And the info on the story coming from Fox/Rupert Murdoch scares the bejesus out of me, hate the man and the channel.............

Regarding Fox, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate...Media_coverage for a good summary - and the sources they cite for the details. The same article lists the multiple enquiries - though again, you can check this against the original sources. I can see no point in digging out all the information for people who evidently haven't even looked into the background to this concocted 'scandal' - the involvement of Fox was well-reported at the time.

No dont eat the cows! They are fed on GM grain made by Monsanto! :o

Hmmm

Hang on a minute and I will edit up that wiki page and correct some mistakes.

But they're so darn tasty! And we're not going to live forever anyways so what the hell. Enjoy all you can! Consume all you can.

And when you toss that empty cup out the window just think of it this way. It requires someone to pick it up so you just created a JOB!

I didn't crawl all the way to the top of the food chain just so I can eat a salad.

Arghh .......... which is why I hate the likes of you going to the Mournes in Northern Ireland, you leave waste, and mess behind because you think binmen live out there as well, it's no longer my mess now that it's left my hands are the worst type of person on this planet at the moment as it gives all decent city livers a bad name!! If you do go to the beach or country side bring your rubbish home with you and don't leave it behind .................. sheesh what a stupid post????

Oh, the good old "einstein was bad at school as well" argument :rolleyes:

The funny (well, semi-funny) part about this topic is that, for example, the US"The-Kyoto-Protocol-is-bad-for-American-jobs"A sits in the front row for the climate change spectacle. Due to being situated between two oceans, and having a very diverse landscape, the USA will, and does already, experience the consequences of tanking up the atmosphere with CO2 and the like - Hurricanes and tornadoes get more frequent and destructive, desertification et cetera.

People will start to listen when the ocean starts washing our coastal cities away. Hopefully it won't be too late.

BTW, you don't need any temp data to know that the planet is warming. Do you really not understand what it means when all of our glaciers are disappearing?

No, they didn't. The scientists were vindicated.

read my 2nd last post. This was way back in the 90's. Its 20 years later.

You will note that I suggested that you used Wikipedia as a means to find sources - not as a source itself. I'd not recommend trying to 'correct' the article though, Wikipedia has got quite efficient at rejecting the efforts of the tinfoil-hat brigade recently. Or is Wikipedia another Marxist plot? Come to that, is reality a Marxist plot? That would explain a lot...

I have no idea why you think that is significant.

not a matter of being significant, just a case of ppl saying exactly the same thing you said in the post i quoted of yours. 20 years on, coastal cities arnt under water or washed away because of global warming, and the glaciers are still melting away.

Just a quick one, i had a good laugh the other day, anyone who reads the daily telegraph in sydney might have seen the artical a few days ago on the front page continued on page 11, apparently, global warming wasnt causing the oceans rising.... The simple fact that we were using water and that used water entering the oceans was the cause. Lol! Looks like no one is too sure wats happening.

I have no idea what you are talking about. All I know is that that the glaciers continue to disappear.

The water continues to rise and the band plays on.

Article.

And there isn't a single climatologist who thinks that the oceans are rising because we are using water. Seriously, don't be a moron.

moron? Lmao, settle down there champ. Im sharing something that i found quite amusing which was in the papers found by an apparent climate change expert rofl, obviously the subject is too serious for you to even see the funny side of it all. No need for the name calling mate ;)

look, ill leave you with it anyways, seems like you dont know what anyone is talking about, but your pretty well convinced that we are all doomed :) have a good one david :)

p.s. post me a pic of you ready and waiting for the impending doom in your scuba gear :)

Don't knock the Conservationists.

Mid last year I put on a 3.6KW solar system on my roof when the WA Government wa paying us 47c a KW subsidy locked in for 10 years. Since the current price per KW is about 19c at the moment, I haven't payed a power bill in nine months! :)

My system should pay itself off in five years and then I've still got four years with the subsidy.

Unfortunately the subsidy was too popoular so they cancelled the program. Hmmm! guess who was loosing money?? Our power company where the government is the major share holder!

Now I may not put much faith in global warming but the power company can go jack it's self! :)

He mentioned studies which said, some pacific island will be under wanter by 2010! - However it is still there and fine. As the sea level has only risen 1.2mm.


Well the band better know allot of tunes because the waters taking its sweet time...



Yes its funny that isnt it. Same thing happened in the UK and now its not worth doing except out of the goodness of your green heart. Maybe Andy and David will get them then?

got to love the summation of environmentalists as communists. must be an american thing? then again, i know brits who refer to anyone even remotely concerned about the environment as commie so who knows. right wing thing?

i'm unsure as to how much of global warming is down to man and how much is just a natural cycle (whihc i think probably reflects the general situation, we can't really know as the data, whilst indicative of human impact, is not wholly conclusive) but i basically come down on the "pumping chemicals and agents, whether naturally occuring or not, into the atmosphere at higher levels than they would naturally occur cannot be good" camp.

but then i also couldn't give two tugs of a dead dog's todger about it. i live on a hill and would like a beach front property within the next 50 years. i also laugh at the "we're killing the planet" brigade because, well, we're not. we're just responsible, to a greater or lesser extent, for a mass extinction event. the planet will be fine, life will continue. we may not.

i do laugh at the climate change denial stuff though. up there with the best conspiracy theories, in that it almost completely ignores scientific data, measurements of polar icecaps, glaciers, etc etc. like the "mmr causes autism" thing.

hilarious 'til you realise these people are serious.

that's because we're applying a human time scale to geological processes.

that a newspaper report gets the science so wrong is no surprise, science reporting in general is shoddy if not entirely misleading. have a read of some ben goldacre to get an idea of how badly it is gotten wrong.

corpernicus anyone?

wait, generating electricity, albeit in as yet insignificant amounts and as inefficient as current tech is, is aesthetically undesirable and shouldn't be done?

our energy needs are astronomical and increasing daily. any way we can meet them should be grabbed with both hands, a good deal of enthusiasm and with a desire to increase energy output. to reduce reliance on finite resources and reduce pollutant output goes hand in hand with that.

Copernicus had no trouble with trolls on teh internet, at least.

+1 A noble cause.


No like I said, the concept is great. I will explain what I ment better. I am an electrician, I look at buildings differently because I was in the construction trade (thanks bankers!) the current PV panals are do not tie in with the fabric of the building that well. In 5 -10 years they will be knackered and will deduct value from your property. You also loose some space from the house for the batteries. The "pioneers" who have them now will suffer in the future. Once they start making an actually roofing material thats also a PV panal, then we are in business! How do the current ones actual fix to the roof? Are there any holes in the roof to support them? - if there are you can bet they sealed the holes with something retarded like mastic or silicone... I wouldn't want a load of holes on my roof sealed with silicone which will degrade with UV... They pay for themselves in 5-10 years depending on who tells you, so how much longer will they last than that? Also these firms that fit the things are mostly on a quick money band wagon (government grants) so I expect the work is not being carried out by Roofers and Electricians but more an adhoc crew proberbly with one sparkie and a load of numpties...

This is what interests me. Why has denial of climate change been turned into
this symbol of rightwing virility? I'm puzzled by this phenomena. Margaret Thatcher was one of the first western leaders to be convinced of the threat but she was a scientist by training. What has happened since?

Laughable debate here though. As has been said, whatever the Ostriches in this thread may think, climate change is here and now.

No one is denying climate change, only the reasons for it.

Then you must be honest with yourself when considering the evidence and the overwhelming level of scientific concensus. The amount you pay for the tax-disc on your motor becomes largely irrelevant.

Not sure how you could claim that:confused:...only a very few simple minds believe in man made climate change, put forth for an easy monetary gain from the foolish people, to the pockets of slicker people...do you understand that the earth has been warmer in the past? Do you not understand that it is the Sun? Do you understand cycle's :grin:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...l20warming.jpg

[whisper]Pssss Slipball, I dont think it has much to do with man at all... Have you been reading what I have written? [/whisper]

Best not to encourage them though:grin:...if they would get off this board, and do a little research. They might sleep better at night...Attention! The Earth has been warmer in the past.:cool:

Central Greenland is obviously very representative. Ask the people of Kiribati about climate change, but you should'nt wait all too long! :rolleyes: