Sorry, my English is not good enough and maybe you misunderstood my message you quoted.

C# knowledge is not needed to a user to create and fly coops.

You should distinguish between 2 systems: stock CloD and Banks' ones. The latest one works. It is not 100% ready yet and many players do not know about it yet plus launcher crashes = not many coops till now.

If you are trying to prove that stock CloD coop system does not work I do not understand your motivation. 1st, everyone knows this except for Luthier and BlackSix (e.g. my post http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...2&postcount=25 looks like you missed it). 2nd, proving this to us does not lead you to anything at all. "DO YOU UNDERSTAND, ITS NOT WORKING!!!" So what? Does it bring you any results or improvements? It gives you nothing. It would be much more fruitful to test and write about Banks' script that you do not do because you have no interest in coops. Otherwise you would have tested it already.

3rd, if you want to persuade Luthier and B6, it would be more efficient to do it here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=28341 or in bugreports/updates threads if you really want to be helpful because they do not read all threads.

No offence intended but if your own psychological benefits is the only reason for you posting here, isn't it called trolling and prohibited by forum rules? What do your posts bring to the community table? Any new help, solutions, knowledge? Can you handle your frustration without sharing it on the forums and instead bring in something positive emotionally helping others who are more frustrated than you are (there are some girls lurking around btw)? Isn't that what men do or is it you and 2-3 other people here who every day needs a hug more than others? We can give you a hug and share your pain, you are welcome. The system is not working, CloD is not Il-2, Softclub is not MG, Luthier is not Oleg, you can not expect German quality from a Russian company unless it is run by a soviet-school aviation engineer obsessed with perfectionism. Hope it helps :)

To be fair Furbs you are starting to troll on this Co-op thread, everyone here agrees that we need a co-op and until we get one Banks and others have apparently put a lot of time and effort into bringing us an unofficial version.

I have yet to try it but will give it a go this weekend, in fact Farber invited me to join a co-op someone was running the other day but I was too busy :(.

Thanks for everyone that made the co-op possible hopefully at some point it will be official implemented.

Banks=Star.

No i dont post here for any psychological benefit, my GF might agree with you and i get all the hugs from her i need, though thanks for the offer cheers. :)
Im just annoyed at something that would help CLOD so much is not working. maybe iam expecting to much?

For things to work in CLOD you have to wait for a few years, remember nothing worked in the original IL2 for at least 3 years.......

Here we go again with the sweeping generalizations.

The truth is, some things worked in IL2 from the start and some were implemented at a later date by the community.

It's the same thing with CoD, but due to the increased amount of features there's an increased amount of bug fixing to do as well.

It's the same with other sims too, some things take time. RoF anyone? It took 18 months or so before it really took off and that's a much more limited engine in terms of how much objects it can handle and what you can do for dynamic mission environments. Heck, last time i checked it when it went free to play, they were revamping the visibility range to be more than a couple of kilometers because up till that point performance didn't allow it and thus, people couldn't really boom and zoom because they couldn't see their targets. SLI/Xfire took quite a while to implement as well, shimmering ground textures at long range also, etc, etc. Oh, and all guns had the same ballistic characteristics (don't know if they changed that). Why? Because a small company tried to make a complex game, because big companies don't make games for this genre.

It's easy to think we are the only ones being slighted here in CoD land, when in fact the way things go is pretty straightforward in software development: the amount of bugs is proportional to the complexity of features and inversely proportional to the amount of people and money you have to throw at the problem.

It's also easy to look back on a 10 year old series that has been tweaked and modded to kingdom come and expect that kind of quality standard as a given, completely forgetting that it took 10 years to reach that stage.

On a side note, how many were there for the very first release of IL2 back in 2001?Does anyone remember that none of the LW planes had mine-shells?

Or that the sim was so hard on the CPU that to cut down on DM and ballistics calculations only the tracers were accounted for, giving an advantage to the Russian machine guns with their higher tracer frequency?

Or that we only had canned campaigns and you couldn't progress until you got the "mission accomplished" message because there wasn't a difficulty option to set the "no instant success" parameter?

Or that in all campaign missions with level bombers, your flight of, let's say, 111s would get a task to bomb a truck convoy yet the flight altitude was set at 5km, you couldn't see the targets due to the rendering limitations, the AI leader wouldn't aim bombs for you and then they would all start dive bombing from 5km, release at 3km or so and score direct hits and you would go all "wtf? how is that possible in a realistic scenario?"

Or that, due to the fact it was designed as a low-altitude, ground pounding sim, there was no high altitude atmosphere model to speak of, giving all sorts of FM problems?

Or that without a 3rd party tool (Hyperlobby), its multiplayer would be dead in the water?

Do you really want me to continue? A lot, most in fact, of those things were corrected, some by the developers and some by the community, but it took three things:
1) time
2) a positive attitude
3) rolling up one's sleeves and doing something about it, instead of just crying "gimme" constantly

I remember very well. Things were not all rosy back then either, the only thing that's rosy is your nostalgic glasses people.

When the population of this forum learns to present opinions and not strawmen designed simply for the purpose of winning points in a forum argument, maybe we'll get somewhere. ;)

Bingo

Excellent Post

Now that so many moderators (counted at least 2) take part in the debate what about this as a first step in the right direction:

Blackdog has a good memory of the bugs in the original IL-2 and I don't dispute that. For me, this is the difference between the 2:

Average critic score for launch version IL-2 2001: 9.2 (editors choice)

Average critic score for COD: 6.0

There are showstopper bugs and their are annoying bugs that you can still enjoy a sim with. It is 8 months later and I still don't have a singleplayer experience I can enjoy. I don't think that was really the case with the oirginal IL-2. Both sims were released with ground breaking stuff, it's just that COD can't be enjoyed by an offline player yet.

That's a pretty broad statement. Like to back it up with some facts and constructive input for a change?
I have a great time in both single-player and multi-player (including campaign - ok so its not dynamic but its not that bad!) I never experience a lot of the issues some of you guys seem to suffer and I have a much more complex rig where if something wasnt going to work, I'd be the one more likely to suffer problems.

What specific things are you referring to? Many many many bugs have been fixed since the initial release but I dont see any that are show stoppers now or I wouldn't be playing it! I myself shelved it for a couple months until the last couple patches which addressed the majority of the big issues.

Here's your chance to possibly get some help with things your struggling with in the game. Maybe we can help each other a bit more instead of complaining all the time.

I warn you though if its just another general broad sweeping whine post it will go straight in the bin.

How can we help you?

PS. FYI I just played online for 1hr on ATAG Axis vs Allies (20 players online) did 4 sorties and shot down 2 109s and a bomber without a single crash or bug rearing its head. Loving it!
Also noticed my system crept up from 8GB ram usage to 9.4GB ram of my 24GB while in game so it might help some of you to have at least 8GB of ram and maybe even 12GB.

Well, your kinda tying my hands here. My problems with the single player game are the same as everyone else that has posted issues. If I can't mention AI, FM, DM, working radio comms, anti aliasing etc. then your not really being fair, but all of those things together make the single player portion pretty much no fun. I actually think this is one of the points most of the folks here agree on. Right now, I fly COD as a civilian flight sim, I take a plane up and enjoy the cockpit and the feeling of flight for a little bit, but this sim was marketed as a combat flight sim. I go into the QMB and set up a 1 on 1 dogfight, get on the bandit's tail and as soon as I put a round or two in him, he starts barrel rolling like a pinwheel, and doing unrealistic moves and the fun is over. Again, this has been mentioned before and you might see it as a broad sweeping whine, but that doesn't mean it's not true and doesn't kill the experience.

I appreciate the tip on memory, but my issues are content related, not performance. COD runs very well on my rig after the last patch so I have no complaints there. My post that you are objecting to wasn't meant to be a generic "whine" but more of a disagreement with someone insinuating that the original IL-2 release is basically a mirror image of COD's release. I know Oleg is long gone, but I think it's a discredit to what he achieved by saying that the two are compareable like that.

heres a few reviews of IL2 when it was first released...

Combatsim TOPPICK!! A instant classic! http://www.combatsim.com/memb123/htm/2001/12/il2-rev/

Gamespot uk 9.2! http://uk.gamespot.com/il-2-sturmovi...review-2829773

IGN great! 8.2 http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/165/165150p1.html

Il2 had great reviews despite its bugs, i know i played the heck out of it for almost 2 years solid and had a fantastic time both online and off.

I dont think i need to post reviews of CLOD, the one we held here had was about 56% i think.

Yes im being negative, im sorry but i spent 1500 quid on this PC to play CLOD after i was told by Luthier that the bad performance was because of the lack of RAM at the Kiev show(thats when i ordered my parts).

I still cant play CLOD without a crash EVERY time i try and play.
some people payed 50 quid for this sim and after 8 long months almost none of the key features(not even going to talk about the missing ones) work 100%.

FM
DM
CEM
sound
Graphics
AI

those are the key features of a flightsim right?
None of them work as they should and some are so broken or off the mark its not worth calling them realistic for the planes they are superposed to represent.

Yes we can go and play airquake online with the 50 other people in the world playing CLOD right now but it gets old getting attacked on the runway because the AA is rubbish.

When i see post from the development team asking for help with the AI(really? they are supposed to have been working on the AI for 3 months already!!)...really?? they dont know what its supposed to do??? really?? they have had 10 years with IL2 right?? Oleg said the AI it would surpass IL2 by miles remember?

If you check back before release my posts were positive and full of praise for what i was seeing and hearing from Oleg and Luthier.
I spent weeks of my own time years ago to take over 200 pictures of pre-war houses, farms and buildings for this sim to help out back when i used to beta test stuff and like i say ive spent 1500 quid to have a PC to play CLOD so ive invested time and money in CLOD and im unhappy so far its far, far from what it said it would be.

When Luthier stops the delaying tactics and patch padding and something gets actually fixed and the sim stops crashing every 20 mins, then i will start to feel better and have a more positive attitude.

Its been 8 months, its not much to ask.

i hope this has been less of a rant. :) and gives people i idea of how i feel.(as if you didn't know already!)

I think quite a few people here spent £2000 to 3000 on there pc for this game I know I have, but given how much money I expect you have pumped into world of tanks I can't help but laugh when you mention the cost of the cod ;)

Furbs, I'm with ya brother. I really tried with it god help me I did.
But no matter how much duct tape you apply its still a broken toy, and as such not worth my time. When the game becomes functional in the key areas you listed above ill be back, until then there are plenty of superior competitors to keep us entertained.

Yeah we know all that guys, but speaking the truth here only gets you a ban, I know i've done it many times, you just have to nod politley to all those who still believe in dragons.

Great post Furbs.

Truth? You guys just can't handle the Truth!


wiki - "Various theories and views of truth continue to be debated among scholars and philosophers. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute.
"

I think it's something to do about men not wearing enough hats?

:) Happy new year and here's to a better 2012! :)

Well yesterday I and 2 of the squad mates tried to get a coop mission going. After 2 hours we gave up.

None of the coop-missions (1 from 1C, the others downloaded from airwarfare) were working. We managed to load the il2coop lobby mission though. But we never managed to actually fly a plane. Some launcher.exe crashes occured, too.

Verdict of the evening: It has to be a lot easier to get a coop going, before we will try again.

There is a huge difference between the original and the latest IL-2. One was released basicly finished with a few bugs, the other released atleast a year to soon. So of course one should receive better reviews than the other.

Look what your asking for is a full-real closed cockpit experience like IL2 which has had 10 years of development to get it right.

If you are looking for a full-real type experience in CoD you will have to wait until more of the minor bugs are ironed out to get the full experience.
Some consider the game airquake like in its current state but i dont agree. Even in full-real now its actually a lot harder to play than IL2 ever was.

Some CEM features are not working as intended but as I mostly fly Allies and in full manual CEM, I cant comment on how the CEM issues effect play for Axis, but I dont see a problem with full manual CEM in any Red planes I fly. From what I've read full manual CEM seems to be working for Axis planes, they just have some auto CEM issues like the spit used to have in the first release.

If you turn the AI down a notch from Ace they apparently stop the wild maneuvering. Not the perfect answer but it does the trick.

DM - yes it still has some issues but for the most part it is miles ahead of IL2.
I havent personally seen any DM problems in my last few weeks of offline or online play but I have obviously seen others post pics with some strange DM issues. It's not perfect but it doesnt spoil the fun for me.

FM - If you've been around a while you know the FM will get adjusted throughout the sims life, as new data or improvements to the FM engine get made. Sometimes it swings in the favor of Allies and sometimes Axis.
The FM needs improvement and is tweaked throughout the Sims life.

For me, now after logging another 40hrs+ in over the xmas break in both IL2 4.10.1M and CoD I will take the FM in CoD any day of the week.
The CoD planes are much closer matched to what I perceive as reality in regard to handling, acceleration, stall etc (known altitude issues aside for the moment) IL2 FMs are all over the shop now because of the tinkering since 4.09M. That's the biggest reason I and many of my squad stopped flying IL2 so I understand your concerns but I think the FM is pretty damn good and the planes are a pretty good matchup.

As for Furbs added comments on Sound/Graphics..
I have the occasional engine go silent at different speeds but generally only when its damaged and the sounds are miles from where they were only a couple of patches ago. They too are being worked on by a new developer in the team and he has worked miracles compared to what we had. And it will only get better. The silent engine is the only issues ive ever experienced.
Graphics is also miles better and now, reliable and stutter free since the last couple patches. Performance isnt great but its smoothness that counts in Flight sim not Max FPS. The new engine should address the remaining performance issues.

As far as CTDs go.... Well i guess they can happen but I dont experience them. Perhaps its OS dependent, but it is almost certainly config/system related issues with variances in individual users machines. This is true of most games Ive played in the last 5 years. BF3, MW3 and Skyrim crash more often on my system than CoD FWIW and many other users too have a lot more issues than I generally have.

My key recommendation here..
Use Win 7 64bit SP1 with 8GB Ram, a fast quad core processor with a 1.3GB Ram GPU as minimum.
Run a registry cleaner
Run a .net 4.0 repair
Delete game cache and dont tinker with settings in the ini files.
Use the lastest drivers for everything not just GPU (use driver cleaner if necessary)
Do a clean install of CoD if necessary.
If Overclocking, try stock clocks to test for stability
Last resort do a clean OS install.

And now back on topic please! ;) This is an interesting thread about Co-Op!

PS I've spent more on my Rig than several of your systems put together so dont talk to me about disappointment. Ive been there... and now very happy with what I get out of the sim after the last couple patches.

Well I build gaming PC's for a living and have been doing so for 10 years, my current rig runs at 4.7ghz with an i7 sandy bridge, 8 Gb of Ram and a GTX580 graphics card. The rig is water cooled and im running Windows 64 ultimate. No other game i run crashes, I run BF3 fully maxed out at 1920x1200 without a glitch. To suggest that the CTD in CLOD is a problem with users PC's is frankly absurd. Its a known problem with the graphics engine that luthier as already confirmed.

Anyway like you say lets get back on track, who as managed to get a Coop running successfully??

Phat, your PC is awsome and i completely respect your knowledge on the subject, but there are far more people suffering from the CTD than not. How have you got on with your SLI setup, many many months ago Luthier told us that the next Nvidia driver release will support SLI, there as been many releases since then but no CLOD config. Is yours running fully optimized?

I run in 4way SLI Split frame rendering mode. AFR creates too many stutters because the drivers arent optimised.
In SFR mode it runs smooth as silk and everything maxed with 8xAA and GPUs all at 100% utilisation. Not the fastest running game in SFR but at least its smooth and consistent. Minimum 40FPS and Avg 50FPS max 120FPS.

Are you certain that the AA is working phat, ive yet to see anyone show a screen shot with AA on?

You made a lot of valid points Phat, and I am glad that the issues at present don't keep you from enjoying the sim. I think I can sum up my situation sort of like this: COD with it's great cockpits and feeling of flight have ruined me for IL-2 1946, 46 just seems too cartoony now. COD with all of the issues for offline play has also ruined me for COD...so there you have it. Between a rock and a hard place. Thats why I end up here looking for good news instead of flying either of them.

Anyway, back on topic(sort of): Blackdog was making a comparison of Launch version of IL-2 vs Launch version of COD. Not the 10 years of work 1946 of present. If you look at the Combatsim review link Furbs posted, you will see him talk about a great co-op mission he flew with a friend. This is out of the box IL-2 he's talking about here, so I don't think the comparison he was making was valid.

AA definitely works but not on all surfaces. I can see the difference. Ill see if I can get a couple screen shots to illustrate.

I have the same feelings but feelings do not help solving issues. Staying cool and positive and taking constructive actions helps. Helping Banks and reporting in the bugreports threads helps. When new patch is out I will rise this issue again in the patch thread if I notice it early enough not to be lost in flame. Let's do it together.

Insuber ran a great thread with priority bugs list (I think COOP is not listed there btw). It is a pity it is not updated any more. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...light=priority
Maybe you, Tree and Tvrdi can start and maintain a new one? This would be really helpful as it looks like the devs do not have time to read all threads.

Tis True Tree but as he says you won't see it on all surfaces but I can def see the difference wether I use the ingame option OR CCC

Please tell Banks what went wrong in his thread. If there is a problem with the lobby he can solve it quickly. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=28559&page=8
However from my experience usually difficulty settings are set incorrectly or some files copied into a wrong directory. The lobby works for others if installation instructions are followed step by step. They are very easy.

LeadTurn is going to publish his set of coop-missions soon btw. Keep an eye on that thread.

Can I suggest you and others persevere with it especially online in the ATAG servers. They are a little less air quake than some. It's very rewarding if you can look past some of the imperfections that will be ironed out hopefully shortly and this co-op option is showing a lot of promise!

I have tried mate, truly I have, but my story goes like this,

Go through take off procedure, warm engine up. Start to taxi, get straffed, not all the time but fairly often. Restart take off procedure, finally take off, gain some altitude whilst orbiting. Spot a distant dot, gain on it and try to identify, oh its disappeared. See flak below, drop in on enemy aircraft, he hasn't seen me, line up my sights and WHAM, crash to desk top. Multiply many times....then give up.

Well drop your graphic settings the game crashes a lot less for me since I have turned off shadows and the ghost dot problem is not a problem for me any more.

I used to see the phantom dot enemies but to be honest since playing on ATAG haven't seen it once. As for straffing, it's part of the game and I know it can be frustrating, you just have to move bases. As for crashing, how are your GPU temps? My GTX 580s used to overheat with default max fan speeds. Before I got my water cooling blocks on I Flashed the bios to enable 100% fan which stopped a lot of crashing. Now on water they run at 52c and with the latest drivers I don't get any launcher CTD.

What are your settings?

Everything on maximum with 8xAA, 1920x1080. And sometimes I play 6040x1080 with 2xAA. As mentioned earlier 4way SLI SFR mode.

Yea id like to know that if your not seeing ghost dots..everyone else i speak with on that server does

To be fair I haven't seen them for a few weeks but they are mentioned on Comms regularly then again I rarely chase bomber formations nowadays.

I still see them..I love a bomber formation me.

Cant be assed with all the deck fighting or vulching..not my bag

Yeah, I think the ghost dots soured my taste at chasing them, ATM I carry out bombing runs and littlestone blenhiem hunts :P

:) Nice

I find the ghost dot problem to be far more prevalent when the server is packed with players. When it's only 10 or 15 people online, I don't think I ever get a ghost problem.

But if you do, who you gonna call?

I don't dispute the problems, i'm just saying it's part and parcel of trying to do more with a team that stays the same in terms of numbers of people and funding.

The thing here is what each one prefers. For example, i'm willing to weather it out for the new features, rather than have an IL2 remake with new graphics. Of course, this is a matter of personal taste and there's no right or wrong answer, some people might as well have preferred an IL2 remake and in that case, it's understandable they are feeling disappointed.

To be fair though, i didn't really get into IL2 until FB came out. When i got the first IL2, i was flying a couple of sorties to admire the new FMs, ballistics and graphics, but then i always switched back to European Air War and flew 4-5 sorties because it was a more complete experience (because it was older simply).

That's all it takes really. I just decide if i want to support a dev team and if i have the disposable cash i'll do it (eg, buying a collector's edition on release for 70$ or waiting and picking up a steam download version for 10$), then i sample the goods and wait for the game to mature.


Also, this:

Feelings are not useful to the cause, sad but true. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to express them, but a more dry, technical approach like the one Ataros suggests would be more helpful to every single one of us. If the majority of content in our posts is about how we feel instead of what we do to correct what makes us feel this way, then we're just going around in circles.

Eg "I flew yesterday and the compass is screwed up. I'm so disappointed, etc" doesn't tell me (or anyone else) anything useful.

Compare it with this:

"I took the 111P for a spin yesterday. The magnetic and repeater compasses are misaligned by as much as 20 degrees when they should be showing roughly the same readout. Also, the red triangle on the magnetic compass that shows heading doesn't move so the only way to get a heading is via the tooltip readout, and the plane silhouette that's used as a course setter is immovable as well. The course setter works on the repeater compass, but it looks like it's reversed. Checking the 111H i saw that it doesn't suffer from these issues, so it's an issue isolated to the 111P. This makes accurate navigation quite difficult, especially if you want to use the course autopilot to level bomb accurately."

This tells me everything i need to know: it describes the bug and its effect on gameplay, where it occurs and has a comparison of similar features in a valid, working state on another similar flyable as a measure of validity.

But i set aside some of my time to test it for an hour yesterday on ATAG #2 after i heard two guys being confused about it on teamspeak, instead of coming here to post a one liner. Do the same if you want to see things get fixed and improved, or keep the drama down while others are doing the work for the rest of the community.

I don't object to negative observations and people having their opinions.

I object to not letting people fix the game for us by causing unnecessary drama that demoralizes those who are willing to put in the work out of their personal free time, when they could just keep all they know to themselves since they already have the means to enjoy the game more than the rest.

At least appreciate their efforts and if you can't be bothered to help, then at a minimum don't discourage them and let them do what needs to be done.

Oh, and i'm flying this on an i7 920 @ 2.7Ghz, Ati 4890 1Gb and only 3GB of RAM. I never upgrade for a game before the game is stable enough to warrant it. If i jump in the pool without checking and it turns out the water is dirty, i'm the one to blame. So, instead of blind faith turning into blind disbelief through disappointment, let's maintain a critical, technical outlook on things and a reporting style in our posts, to help get everything fixed as soon as possible.

Or we can keep ranting among ourselves and waste everyone's time :-P

Could we get back to the topic of "co-op" again now please? Would be awesome as this would be an important topic unlike performance which A) is because some people never want to upgrade and B) because the engine has problems which are being worked on. So nothing new on that front guys...

That aside, blackdog, could you go back a few pages and read my suggestions? Eventually it's best to make a sub-forum for co-op. I listed the reasons in my post here.

Good idea...

I did read them and they are good, but it's not something i can decide by myself. I would give you a new section right now, i just don't know if it will be used in its intended manner. If it doesn't, then it ends up being another section to moderate for minimal community gain (hence, i'd need to talk it over with the other mods first).

I do think your idea has merit though, so let's get a middle ground solution going:
I can't give you a new forum section right away, but i can give you a sticky immediately ;)

So, let's start with a CO-OP thread in the mission building sub-forum or the multiplayer forum (whichever you prefer) for suggestions, ideas, links to missions and scripts in the other sub-sections, etc. I'll sticky that one and then we can make it into a separate section if there's enough participation.

Feel free to start a thread and PM me the link, i'll sticky it ASAP. Cheers ;)

A set of coop-missions was posted by LeadTurn_SD http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...5&postcount=73

If anyone is interested in flying coops in CloD please try them with Banks' lobby and provide feedback in that thread. SD squad flies them without any problems.

Banks coop lobby was working as advertised - the coop missions themselves were not working.

Please report coop issues in this thread http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...615#post377615