You know, I'm trying to defend you here and also trying to defend the victims which surely DIDN'T want this to happen. But you're making it very hard... even for me. Why?

1) stopping the race isn't a middle ground
2) there are ALWAYS ways to improve
3) red bull didn't stop the series - they paused it in 2011 to make room for technological improvements, eventually even some of which I mentioned
4) there is no reno and anti-reno people. It's only you and those other "pro" faction freaks are so crazy about this. The rest of us most definately want to keep air sport alive but also make sure it's safe I believe.

So what's so hard to agree on about? I believe what Red Bull did was is the right thing to do. And they WILL re-open the series make no mistake about that.
Reno should do the same for sure. But killing the series would just be wrong.

Yeah and let's stop all the running races as it claims to many ankles per seconds !

They're flying high performance aircraft close to the ground. There is simply no way to make that safe. If they restart it's only because they decided to toss the dice.

BINGO! which is exactly what you do every time you say there would be 400 deaths per year in F1 if the death rate was the same, or any of your other arbitrary multiplications. At least my method takes into account the existence of extra data which would be necessary to make meaningful comparisons to other dangerous activities. How about you let me know when you find a source that states that in 7-10 days at Reno they have only a few hours of racing (therefore being comparable to 1 race in F1) until then, well, like you said...

Pylon racing is dangerous due to the speed and low altitude, but neither of these things can be compromised without destroying the event, like has happened in F1. Things could be made safer but only to a point. You could move the spectator stands a mile back, but then, at 500mph an aircraft will cover that distance in under 15 seconds. In F1 after several particularly bad years regarding fatal accidents, the drivers got together to force the teams and tracks to provide for their safety, started boycotting races deemed too dangerous etc. Until the pilots who race at Reno start feeling seriously worried for their own safety and therefore stop racing out of a healthy desire to remain alive, no-one has any right to tell them to stop what they do because it is too dangerous - they know the dangers and they accept it, they are not demanding that anyone else subject themselves to it. The same goes for the spectators. Nobody in their right mind wants to see people hurt or killed for love of their sport, and maybe as a result of this some people will decide not to attend in the future for safety reasons. That is their choice and I fully support them. But if they still want to watch? that is their choice and I support them in that too, to want to deny them is some sort of authoritarian ego thing I find particularly repulsive. Part of what is wrong with our culture today. Perhaps you were bullied at school and now you'd like to get your own back?

@Madfish - The Red Bull races are a very sanitized form of air racing with as many safety controls as you can think of, like F1 where safety has been taken to the extreme that it has utterly destroyed the sport. There must be as you say some middle ground, but this comes with a price, and folks like David need to remember that absolutely nothing can be made perfectly safe, least of all extreme motor sports. Anyway in terms of safety, how about - armored spectator stands - ejector seats and parachutes as standard?

P.S. I know I said I'd stop, but since David is so vehement I am again compelled to defend my position.

Firstly, when and where did I (being "pro" as you put it) fail to respect or ever insult the pilots or spectators? I think you'll find its the "con" group that is doing that by implying that they are stupid/mindless/unable to understand danger. I might add that you have insulted me twice now with your statements against my childish point view, whereas I have tried to remain as objective as possible whilst being bombarded by the over zealous 'People should be forced to remain safe for their own good' camp. Nothing can be made perfectly safe. Mundane activities can nearly be made almost perfectly safe but extreme sports will always carry a significant risk. Make it safer by all means but prepare for the fact that at some point in the future, an accident will happen and more people will be hurt/killed no matter what controls you put on it, apart from total ban. There is an argument for increasing safety measures at Reno. There is an argument to make sure that attendees be made fully aware of the possibly lethal outcomes. But to cry out 'ban! ban! ban!' without any real knowledge of the sport smacks of being jealous that some folks are a bit less risk averse and are able to have fun that you'll never be able to have yourself. Ye GADS! some people jump off mountains in a flying squirrel suit. Others smoke cigarettes at 60 a day. We all gotta go sometime, somehow.

Secondly, If I am 'pro' anything it is not Reno air racing or any particular activity, I am pro choice, pro freedom, and pro accepting responsibility for my own actions and decisions and not leaving it up to anyone else to tell me I can't/shouldn't, especially when it affects them not at all. In my view the chances of an accident at Reno involving spectators are not that high - 1 in 48 (+- 2%) though I can understand that people might find this too high and I am not opposed to trying to reduce this chance, but at the present moment, if you can't stand the heat...

Sorry david, but that was actually an insight on how i would feel if i was in the firing line. Wasnt an implication that that is what happened to these ppl. But i can bet on your life in their obituaries/ eulogy, some would have had something metioned in it "He/she died doin what they loved" or some blah blah like that.

But ive noticed one thing about that statement and anothers of yours... your saying it should be stopped because of this bad "happening"..... but since youve watched it across several angle... and im assuming youve watched them several times, i get the feeling you might have actually enjoyed watching it happen... over, and over... and over again. Which is human nature i think. a part of us all enjoy watching things like this lol.

But yes, it is tragic, and inevitably, it was bound to happen one day, might not have been this year, maybe not in the next decade, the race could be into its 100th year and it could have happened. But really, all parties know the risks involved going to a spectacle like this, or any others.

so why should it be stopped?

If each event/ thing was to be stopped becuase of a few fatalities there would be no motor racing, no bike racing, no flights to other countries, no taking a cruise ship to other countries, no driving you car down the street for groceries.. and etc etc etc. Would be a very boring world i must say.

These days i get the feeling that the world has gone way too soft. In the old days it would have been "thats horrible", "OMG", "Terrible, terrible, terrible.... Soooo ill cya next week for the next race?".



Back to the topic at hand (well the interesting part with ppl actually having a constructive DISCUSSION), i noticed an earlier post someone saying about if the pilot had blacked out, you woulda seen him slumped over the controls. My thoughts about this would be you wouldnt see him at all, a massive amount of force such as 10G would have pushed him back and down into his seat?

You didn't make use of additional data, you made $@!^ up. My comparison is perfectly valid. One F1 event is approximately equivalent to 1 Reno event. The timespan is roughly the same. You certainly have not demonstrated otherwise.

Then they should not be doing it.

People don't get to act recklessly just because they want to. I suspect the good folks at Reno are going to be reminded of that when they see their insurance rates next year.

It's not like there is a small problem here. The death rate at Reno is appalling.

I watched each tape once because I wanted to see what happened. Several years ago a good friend of mine was killed in an air show crash. His young child and wife were watching at the time. I also watched the tape of that once. Do you think I enjoyed it?

Actually, the parties clearly don't know the risks involved. But they're going to find out when the next insurance bill shows up.

Because it's recklessly dangerous.

This isn't "a few fatalities", this is 2 dead for every 5 events. That is appalling.

Yes, that's what they used to do in auto racing, until they realized that it was moronic and they stopped the carnage.

...you are forced to pay a massive insurance bill if you want to continue the carnage.

When Reno 2012 starts I will revive this thread to mock you....

In the mean time...

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/STFU_NOOB.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GmAG-JlHT4...255B1%255D.jpg

http://troll.me/images/trololo/danny-stfu.jpg

Choose one.

Lucky they are quite wealthy then eh?.....yeah blows your need for an audience out the window, because no public liability would be an advantage.

Anyone got a face palm pic!!

They currently charge the audience to cover parking costs and insurance. Either the amount they charge is going to have to increase, or the aircraft owners are going to have to help cover those costs. There's a limit to what the insurance companies can do to stop this.

Mock me for what?

They charge the public for the costs incurred for having the public.....no public = no costs.......then everybody can do the thing they love....exept the public who 'want' to be there.

So? I'm fine with that, and we already discussed it. Only the FAA can stop that.

Well doctor we're not impressed. You can't imagine the level of humor I find in your futile effort to impress people. There are many people here that are already retired that are not 50 yet - myself included.

John Hopkins in their own self-interest wont tell you that you'll never get rich working for somebody - I wont charge you for that nugget of wisdom - I simply like helping people who want it for free. They're just another business like so many others.

You leave school with a huge bill to pay and a piece of paper with your name on it that can could also be used for toilet paper in a pinch. Speaking of which....I'll be right back.

when the public are not involved the FAA have little interest.

I'm not trying to impress anyone. I've been repeatedly called stupid for my analysis of the Reno numbers. I'm just wondering about their qualifications, so I posted mine.

The FAA will probably investigate the crashes. Or do aircraft falling from the sky not involve the public?

No, it isn't. One race in F1 including free practice and qualifying totals less than a few hours, Reno which is at least a week long event, has displays as well as racing, however you look at, it totals a lot more than that, so by insisting that the fact it happens only once a year makes no difference and we should measure the time in events, I say why not measure it in days or even hours, if its the time per year that is so important, and we come to different conclusions. My point is, the issue is not as cut and defined as you would have it, clear comparisons cannot be made, and some activities are proven to be more dangerous even than Reno. Why do any of these activities carry on? It is not that people are stupid or that they don't understand the risk. It is something somewhat harder to define.

Reckless, maybe. Reckless is normally associated with youth but in many of these sports you'll notice the competitors are a lot older, due to the fact it takes a considerable amount of experience as well as skill to be able to pass the entrance requirements, let alone qualify or be competitive. Especially so in the case of aircraft racing it would seem. If you truly were reckless there is almost no way you could have survived to take part. No matter though, who they are or how skilled, experienced, young or old, people sometimes get things wrong, whilst doing a great many different things. Sometimes a machine part fails leading to a sequence of events that cannot be averted from that moment forward. Sometimes a sequence of small events over an extended period of time conspire to make a dangerous situation lethal.

People like to go fast is the most obvious simplification of why these dangerous activities continue. People also like to admire the machines that help them achieve it, from inside and out. People like to compete with each other to see, who is the fastest? Whose machine is best, practically, aesthetically, audibly? Is it really important? Maybe not. But the interested mind poses these questions automatically and seeks an answer. Why do people climb Everest? for every 15 that summit 1 dies. People want to push the boundaries and see how far, how fast, and maybe go that little bit further. Its an evolutionary necessity that cannot be permanently subdued.

I realise that my position might seem to imply that I am in some way unfeeling or uncaring about the recent accident, I assure you that I am not. Every single death is a tragedy, from which I hope people will recover with as much haste and ease as is possible. I am sure you are correct in your assessment of the insurance companies direction, David. That is their business after all. I have said all I can say on the matter.

LULz love this, what's it from? :mrgreen:

aaawwww guys, is this still going on? The troll must be super-fat by now. You should come and see us also in the "was the battle of britain the first defeat of the Luftwaffe" room though, we're having tea an biscuits there ;)

If you think the time spent racing/qualifying/practicing at Reno is significantly different from an F1 race, post something to support it. So far all you've got is BS.

Lots of them don't survive. That's the problem. The only reason the "sport" can continue is because they only race 1 week a year.

They dont if the public are not there, reno races happen at reno at a dedicated site.....not randomly over the whole US.

Trucking those aircraft to Reno would probably be a pain in the butt.

When they ferry to the races they are not racing....remember you said it was racing that was dangerous.....

Guys seriously, I've watched this freak troll on now for over six months in various guises, nothing is below his belt, even a thread about untimely deaths fuels his bullshit. No respect for families involved or anything he just uses it for yet another argument.
If you really want this pest to keep going on and on indefinately, of which he will i assure you, then crack on. If not dont feed the creep.
David, if your a doctor this world is further up the proverbial creek more than we thought. Glad they have better security checks in Britain.

They're dangerous all the time. They're appallingly dangerous when they're racing. If they go underground and continue to crash regularly (which they will), there is going to be pressure on the FAA to do something about it.

You're security may be better but you're school system sucks, apparently.

Not intrested you childish cock, go try to upset someone else. My school system taught me honour, dignity and respect, something clearly your highly educated brain feels you can do without.

NTSB does the incident investigation and analysis, with a final report, determining cause and assigning responsiblity. FAA will do the enforcement actions or issue an equipment AD if warranted. Being that this aircraft was a one off, highly modified airframe, in the experimental category it is highly unlikely there is much for the FAA to rule or enforce hardware wise.

The final report will be very relevant for the attorney's in the coming litigation. I noted the N number from the airframe and will follow on the NTSB reporting page as all these reports are public knowledge they are very interesting to read and you learn a lot from them if you are a pilot.

Well, at least I don't get off on blood sports. I really have no idea where you got the idea that defending a sport where 2 people die for every 5 events qualifies you as honorable, dignified, or deserving of any respect.

david, sorry to hear about ur friend, but life goes on.

And yes clearl.y both parties do understand the risk, pilots die every year inevents like this... Air shows and races as such, onlookers have died in past airshows, threw both accidents and pilot stupidity.... But curiously, the still go.

David. I really think that your phobia of all things bad has given you to much time to sit here and individually quote every single persons post. I think its just a little bit lame. I dont care about points of views from suvh people as urself..... Especially since i feel ur goal is to push ur opinion onto others, and make them say "ok, u win".

Please do your self a favour, go outside and enjoy the finer things in life, its too short to be scared of everything.

Mods, could you please lock this thread? This guy is rediculous, i dont see the point of one guy causing arguments within the entire community. Disgusts me.

It's not a phobia of all things bad. I have already posted stats showing that air racing is appallingly dangerous. There is no other "entertainment" that comes even close.

Nor do I care if you admit that I win. Just stop posting. If the Reno enablers stop posting about how great it is, I'll stop posting about how obscenely dangerous it is.

This breaks my heart to see these crash I wish they would ban them. Everyone that goes down is one less left for us to enjoy. And thankfully no one on the ground was hurt but it could have easily been disastrous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aajp-A43glA&

You are on a forum for a game that is gloryfing aviation warfare and the pilots who flew in it! :confused:
I guessed right then when i thought you dont even see your own countries servicemen as honorable or deserving of respect.

The poor chap who died at reno did so with respect, he was providing aviation lovers with a show, the people whom were unfortunately killed from the crowd, died at a show displaying the aviation they loved. Dont you give them anything less.

Being a doctor i think your time is best spend hounding the US health officials to ban smoking and alcohol consumption as they kill MILLIONS of people worldwide every year. So if you really want to be somebody, and make a difference take up that fight for the good of kind.

Playing war related flight sims is not anything like enjoying a "sport" where there are 2 death for every 5 events. No one dies playing computer games.

I'm not a doctor.

Oh darn it. You missed again. What do I got to do to get this though your head? Everyone dies sometime doc.

http://techland.time.com/2011/08/01/...n-on-his-xbox/

I'm not the one missing. The fact that everyone dies eventually has nothing to do with this. You don't get to recklessly kill people and then justify it by saying "well, they were gonna die anyways".

Gentlemen,it's evident by now that David Hayward is an individual who finds pleasure in creating this kind of flaming,disregarding any form of respect or compassion for the victims of a tragedy that were there just to enjoy an experience and perished in a tragic accident.

David has already been banned once for his behaviour,my humble advice is that we all make an effort and ignore him,if anything for the respect on the people who died,respect that he seems incapable of,giving more impoertance to his troll hobby than the compassion and solidariety to the victims and their families.

Please try and ignore him,cos he won't stop,he obviously has some kind of mental issue..

When you can't refute the facts, just call them names!

Coming from someone who sent me PMs whining about not getting any credit from Luthier, this is pretty funny.

If you think the time spent racing/qualifying/practicing at Reno is significantly similar to an F1 race, post something to support it. So far, yours smells just like mine.

When you can't refute the facts, just demand sources (without offering any of your own)

:-P Are we having fun yet?

PMs are private David, why are you telling us this? I guess Sterns quote really hit a nerve. It certainly would go some way to explaining your verbal diarrhea on this thread.

I think maybe, you need simply to calm down sir, your level of fury towards an activity and group of people who don't affect you in any way whatsoever could lead to health problems. Life is too short, as they say.

So now your calling the guy reckless because the aircraft he was in had some form of structual failure which lead to loss of control and his death along with others.

Go bother people who deliberately destroy lives like the tobacco industry as I've said before.

And go book some therapy because you appear to have some deep rooted sociopathic issues.
It was an accident but in your quoted statement you clearly believe the pilot and show organizers deliberately and recklessly wanted to kill people. You belive it so much you have stood against many people here arguing with pure insensitiviy and lack of moral respect for an accident that you clearly believe is murder.

I already posted something to support my views. Both events take place over a similar number of days, therefore they involve a similar amount of dangerous activity. The only thing I'm smelling is that you can't show that I'm wrong.

Not for me. You shouldn't be whining to me in private if you're going to take shots at me in public.

2 people are killed for every 5 events. The whole thing is reckless. Crashing at Reno isn't unusual. It happens all the time.

I never said that they wanted to kill people. They just haven't done what it takes to stop killing people. That is reckless. Unfortunately for them, the only thing that is going to stop the carnage is to end the event.

I find it all very unusual that you speak of the 'Carnage' at reno, when African dictators can slaughter millions, or the president of Iraq can gas thousands, Yet your choice is to basically turn judge and jury about a sporting accident, with nothing to say about world events.

Explain to me and everyone else in this thread why you are insulting the integrity of a dead man under the feint guise of a person who cares about aviation as you previously stated, "I don't care about them. I don't know any of them" and called the relatives of the Deceased "stupid".


I see you use "they" alot but clearly you have no idea who they are so you just talk badly about "them" all.

People enjoy excitement and risk, don't judge their needs.:grin:

You have posted nothing in regard to the amount of racing at Reno because you don't know. Admittedly I am not sure, (at least I admit it) but I say Reno goes on for at least 9 days including qualifying and contains several hours of racing and displays each day, F1 for 3 days and is focused on 1 race, on the sunday. I need more than your word that they actually only race for a few minutes a day at Reno, therefore equaling and F1 race. I do not need to show you are wrong, you need to show you are right. I am open minded, David, I accept the possibility you might be right, but I follow F1, I know exactly how much racing they do. Like I said, no more than 6hrs the whole weekend. Again I suggest that over 7-10 days at Reno there is significantly more racing than that, what you are implying is that at Reno they do less than 1 hour a day including practice, qualifying, displays and racing. Unfortunately neither of us have the information needed to conclude whose point of view is closer to the truth, but you continue to attack my analysis even though you cannot truly support your own.

Anyway, the point was, we can all use numbers to bolster our point of view, the problem is that the closer you look, the more numbers you need to find to attempt to accurately compare things regarding something abstract like the 'amount' of danger. I believe people have a right to life. If people are having fun (even to the point of dying) and are not harming me or mine, I may object, but I cannot make them stop, and I shouldn't try. If you think it is really that bad then go and work in health and safety or become a paramedic. At least then you could help. What good is it doing you arguing here?

Peoples PMs to you are sent in confidence, the least you could do is respect that regardless of how you personally feel towards anyone at any given moment. If you are being harassed then take it up with the forum admins. Airing what people say to you in confidence because they just ticked you off is pretty low to be honest.

Regards,
Sam.

I can't see what the troll is writing (thanks ignore!), but on this point it's generally considered verboten on most forums and would earn you a deserved ban on several I frequent.

On-topic, here is the clearest video yet of the events leading up to the accident. No footage of the impact or aftermath, just the mechanical failure and subsequent pull up/roll of Galloping Ghost. This occurs at 07:30 and is repeated several time in slow motion.

http://vimeo.com/29519344

Somewhat dry preliminary NTSB report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...17X22412&key=1

Thx for the link Spinner. A really good one.

Just to list the evidences on the vid that we can evenualy hve a discussion on rational grds (at least !)

Trailing wheel pop out -> induced bank left -> Pilot action bank right + pitch up -> ctrl ard Roll axis not manageable -> left trim elev separated -> nose down (inverted)...

First video that I can actually see the trim tab come lose and fly off. Wonder why wheel came down. Speculation is many things. Blackout from tab falling off to seat coming lose.

I don't have to know. There are only so many hours in the day, and both events are held over the same number of days. I already refuted your absurd attempt to claim that there is 6 hours of racing each day at Reno. So, until you can show that there is a lot more racing at Reno than at an F1 event, we're going with my version, because all the available facts support me.

The wheel came down because of the G-forces.

He seems to think that I have mental problems. Do you really think it's a good idea to trust someone that you think has mental problems?

:grin: To make a meaningful comparison, yes, unfortunately, you do have to know. The events are not held over the same number of days and there are at least useable 8hrs on any good day, for any activity. You have no facts to support your claim that the racing at Reno is limited to a few minutes per day. The lack of facts does not support you. Err.. who is 'we'?

Either you are admitting he's right, or you have a complete lack of respect and dignity. At least an insane person would have an excuse. Whats yours?

OT, thanks for that last video that is as clear a look at the events before the crash as we will ever get. Can anyone see exactly when the tail wheel actually pops out? If it occurs preceding the over bank it could be the cause. Either that or something else broke in the trim system of which the visible sign was the separating left elevator tab moments later. Sadly I think the final results of the investigation will be speculative anyway, due to there being not enough evidence left.

Regards,
Sam.

No, I don't have to know. Both events are held over the same number of days. That's really all I need.

I definitely have a complete lack of respect for him. If he's going to whine to me in private about Luthier not giving him any credit, then trash me in public, I'd say that he's the one lacking dignity.

yep, I'm sure that what I was trying to do with my PM was whining, not explaining my perspective on something that eventually got you banned. But if you feel like disclosing content of PMs to other members, feel free to do so, I'm not the one with problems here.

I can only feel compassion for the people around you in real life, at least here we have an option to put you on the ignore list.

But you know what? It has become a matter of principle now, we managed to have you banned once, and we hoped this would teach you a lesson, but obviously it didn't. I think we can have you permanently banned, and maybe it's the best solution for you more than for us, you really really need to have this mental issue of yours addressed for good man, you're kinda scary.

fortunately your respect is something I can live without.

I didn't whine with you in private about Luthier though, I explained a perspective on a thread where you behaved just like this. This was back when I thought you could come to reason and accept the fact that people might have an opinion different from yours.

Trashing you in public on the other hand had nothing to do with that topic, but hey, I don't think it's me alone here that thinks we could well do without your presence in this forum.

Trying to get me banned because you can't dispute what I have said about Reno air racing would definitely be a highlight for this board. I can see why Luthier has been mocking you.

We're not trying to get you banned, you're doing it yourself, like you did the last time, because you obviously have some kind of issue.

And for the record, I don't need to dispute what you said about Reno, truth is that you know zero about aviation, aerodynamics, FAA regulations and Reno itself, but unlike the others you can't wait for an official report of the FAA, you need to blurt out sentences that are specifically intended to provoke a flame war. Don't you really see how grotesque your show is?

I came to the conclusion that it's a hobby of yours, and your style is the signature that distinguishes your disturb.

Again, you're trying to provoke a reaction by talking nonsense and mentioning Luthier in a topic that has nothing to do with him.

I still think that you should get banned, and not just cos you're a troll, but to help you with your condition, seriously man, if you really are a doctor (ironic that you used the same name of Dr David Hayward from All My Children), you should be able to see that you have a problem yourself.

Stern, you just broke the irony meter on my PC. I feel bad for Luthier. You have some serious problems.

See how I did that? missing out one part of my statement in your quote doesn't mean It didn't get said now does it? You have no idea how much time is spent racing at Reno, so unfortunately you cannot refute my 'absurd claim'

both seasons take place across a year, that's really all I need.

I hope you can get some help with whatever is troubling you. I am going to ignore you now. Life is too short and your insensitive holier than thou bigotry is rather boring, not to mention repetitive.

Peace.
Sam.

..pssst,you're doing it again,it's not working..

+1 Well said.

It's all you need if you want to distort the relative danger of the 2 events. In the real world a single F1 event and a Reno event take place over a similar timespan, and, therefor, must have a similar amount of activity. Both events have qualifying, practice, and racing. It's simply not possible to have significantly more racing at a Reno event that at an F1 event.

Equating a single Reno event with an entire F1 season is completely absurd.

...psssst.... Right back at ya...

By the way, whether or not I have "issues", 2 die for every 5 Reno events. The math does not change no matter how many issues you think I have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...atal_accidents

That's only drivers not including team members and civilians... and only F1 not the other races!

Yes in recent years safety restrictions have reduced the number of fatalities, but look at the amount of money they have that allowed them to do that and how different it is to flying.... To be perfectly honest comparing these two sports is rather foolish!

TBH from what I have read most ppl are willing to see both sides of the argument and only a handful that are not... one of these may have been banned before :rolleyes:

If you can think of any other spectator sport to compare it to you should post it.

Other aircraft races for a start :confused: :rolleyes:

Like Red Bull? That was shut down for safety reasons (prior to any deaths). What else is there?

The Red Bull Air Race that might be returning in 2012 you mean? :rolleyes: and Aero GP as well...

Yes, the Red Bull series that was stopped before anyone was killed.

How does Reno's record of 2 pilot deaths for every 5 events compare to those 2 race series?

Well thats false it wasnt stopped for that reason and it hopefully will be back.

They are far more comparable than F1 :confused: :rolleyes:

This is from the Red Bull website:

I suppose they could be lying about why they shut it down.

In any case, you didn't answer the question. How does Reno's record of 2 pilot deaths per 5 events compare to the other aircraft race series? Considering that Red Bull hasn't had a fatality yet, I'm guessing that Reno doesn't look very good in comparison

So, as statement that Red Bull intends to "further improve the already high levels of safety" means that it "was stopped before anyone was killed". That is utter hogwash, and even for a troll, a poor effort...

Why mention you're implementing safety changes if you shut it down for some other reason?

By the way, what is wrong with saying that it was shut down before anyone was killed? No one was killed in the series. I'm not seeing the problem with that?

The problem is with your logic. But whatever - you seem keen to demonstrate your stupidity further, so why should I bother arguing...

I'm sorry man, but to be honest this is not a fair assessment of the situation. It is quite blatant what a certain member is doing here, a behaviour for which he has been banned before, the fact that nobody agrees with him and that he's starting his usual trolling behaviour is a sign of his intentions me thinks.

It's obvious that when in a topic there's a call for respect on dead people and this is not taken into consideration, there's something that doesn't quite add, if anything to common sense.

He doens't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with him either. Accepting that an argument is not a "win/lose" convincing contest but a means to see different perspectives by talking to people of different dispositions and all that jazz ;)

It's more the manner that i find disrupting of the normal conversation flow, stating an opinion and presenting some arguments vs being repetitively antagonistic for the sake of it.

You're exactly right, the vast majority are reasonable people around here that might snap from time to time, something i consider part of human nature and don't go after (heck, that's exactly what i did in my previous post, i need to vent off some steam too once per month :-P ).

I just don't like pointing fingers specifically so i describe a situation and let it sink in on its own, if anyone is guilty of it rest assured that he knows who he is and what kind of moderating action to expect ;)

As more facts are learned about what happened this would be an interesting thread. Just don't reply to the agitator(s). :) Talk around them. I think Jimmy had something happen to him like a stoke or something. There was a new video posted that clearly shows the trim tab coming off well after the climb-n-roll. Which makes me thinks perhaps he jerked the stick back for some reason causing enormous stress to be placed on the air-frame causing the tab to fly off.

P.S. We're all human and subject to venting now and then.

funny you should say that, becuase the tail wheel also poped out b4 the climb and roll also. Might be the end of the trim tab theory.

Yes you're right I forgot to mention that good catch. Indeed it did.

The trim tab does not have to separate from the airplane for the elevator trim to break.

Too be honest I can't agree with this. Some points he makes I can't agree with but a lot of valid points are in there as well. So "nobody" is wrong. Partially I agree with him but I also don't agree with the defenders.

Secondly instead of pointing fingers at him you should realize that if you look at this thread objectively most of you guys are ganging up on him, insulting, twisting words etc. as well. Not sure who started it but the way I see it it's only logical: This is a forum for plane lovers (warbirds even) so it's natural that many are defending a lost cause.

It's a fact that reno races are a risky gamble, due to many mechanics of this series, and not a controlled environment. They should re-think their safety standards. That doesn't mean it has to be banned though.

The way I see it the series needs to take a break and see how they could improve like Red Bull does it. I mentioned a dozen of things they could do to improve, to say that there is nothing that could be done is just wrong.




That said I also don't believe that a trim tab needs to come off. But I also can barely believe that just a trim tab falling off would be the cause.
I assume there was something happening before it came off but it's hard to say what at this point. I guess we'll have to wait for an official report.

Popular Mechanics has done an article on the crash.

Some stuff I'd not heard before in it.

Winny thank you for posting this!! Much appreciated!!

No Problem, the interesting bit for me was the Pit Crew guy saying that the telemetry coming back from Galloping Ghost showed that it pulled +22.5 G.

"In 1999, another highly modified P-51 called Miss Ashley II, piloted by Gary Levitz, lost its trim tab during an Unlimited race. It pitched violently upward just as Galloping Ghost did. When it went vertical, the plane broke up..."

That means 3 racing Mustangs have lost trim tabs!! :-(

Why did they not abandon using them after 2 accidents?

I've change my mind about this. I've switched to ban it.

Simply because it's the 3rd time it's happened. I only knew of 2. I reckon that you only need 2 similar accidents to identify a problem. As you said why were they still using them?

For them to continue racing when they knew that the failiure of the trim tab
resulted in such a violent reaction, and had resulted in one of the aircraft breaking up mid air, was at the very least reckless.

Ban the modded P-51 unless they can find and remove the source of the failure and remove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCBbo...layer_embedded

Enough talk of bans.

If you cannot understand this, then I have nothing else for you.

More often than not the problem is in between the stick and the seat.