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You know, I'm trying to defend you here and also trying to defend the victims which surely DIDN'T want this to happen. But you're making it very hard... even for me. Why?
1) stopping the race isn't a middle ground 2) there are ALWAYS ways to improve 3) red bull didn't stop the series - they paused it in 2011 to make room for technological improvements, eventually even some of which I mentioned 4) there is no reno and anti-reno people. It's only you and those other "pro" faction freaks are so crazy about this. The rest of us most definately want to keep air sport alive but also make sure it's safe I believe. So what's so hard to agree on about? I believe what Red Bull did was is the right thing to do. And they WILL re-open the series make no mistake about that. Reno should do the same for sure. But killing the series would just be wrong. |
Yeah and let's stop all the running races as it claims to many ankles per seconds !
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Pylon racing is dangerous due to the speed and low altitude, but neither of these things can be compromised without destroying the event, like has happened in F1. Things could be made safer but only to a point. You could move the spectator stands a mile back, but then, at 500mph an aircraft will cover that distance in under 15 seconds. In F1 after several particularly bad years regarding fatal accidents, the drivers got together to force the teams and tracks to provide for their safety, started boycotting races deemed too dangerous etc. Until the pilots who race at Reno start feeling seriously worried for their own safety and therefore stop racing out of a healthy desire to remain alive, no-one has any right to tell them to stop what they do because it is too dangerous - they know the dangers and they accept it, they are not demanding that anyone else subject themselves to it. The same goes for the spectators. Nobody in their right mind wants to see people hurt or killed for love of their sport, and maybe as a result of this some people will decide not to attend in the future for safety reasons. That is their choice and I fully support them. But if they still want to watch? that is their choice and I support them in that too, to want to deny them is some sort of authoritarian ego thing I find particularly repulsive. Part of what is wrong with our culture today. Perhaps you were bullied at school and now you'd like to get your own back? @Madfish - The Red Bull races are a very sanitized form of air racing with as many safety controls as you can think of, like F1 where safety has been taken to the extreme that it has utterly destroyed the sport. There must be as you say some middle ground, but this comes with a price, and folks like David need to remember that absolutely nothing can be made perfectly safe, least of all extreme motor sports. Anyway in terms of safety, how about - armored spectator stands - ejector seats and parachutes as standard? P.S. I know I said I'd stop, but since David is so vehement I am again compelled to defend my position. |
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Secondly, If I am 'pro' anything it is not Reno air racing or any particular activity, I am pro choice, pro freedom, and pro accepting responsibility for my own actions and decisions and not leaving it up to anyone else to tell me I can't/shouldn't, especially when it affects them not at all. In my view the chances of an accident at Reno involving spectators are not that high - 1 in 48 (+- 2%) though I can understand that people might find this too high and I am not opposed to trying to reduce this chance, but at the present moment, if you can't stand the heat... |
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But ive noticed one thing about that statement and anothers of yours... your saying it should be stopped because of this bad "happening"..... but since youve watched it across several angle... and im assuming youve watched them several times, i get the feeling you might have actually enjoyed watching it happen... over, and over... and over again. Which is human nature i think. a part of us all enjoy watching things like this lol. But yes, it is tragic, and inevitably, it was bound to happen one day, might not have been this year, maybe not in the next decade, the race could be into its 100th year and it could have happened. But really, all parties know the risks involved going to a spectacle like this, or any others. so why should it be stopped? If each event/ thing was to be stopped becuase of a few fatalities there would be no motor racing, no bike racing, no flights to other countries, no taking a cruise ship to other countries, no driving you car down the street for groceries.. and etc etc etc. Would be a very boring world i must say. These days i get the feeling that the world has gone way too soft. In the old days it would have been "thats horrible", "OMG", "Terrible, terrible, terrible.... Soooo ill cya next week for the next race?". Back to the topic at hand (well the interesting part with ppl actually having a constructive DISCUSSION), i noticed an earlier post someone saying about if the pilot had blacked out, you woulda seen him slumped over the controls. My thoughts about this would be you wouldnt see him at all, a massive amount of force such as 10G would have pushed him back and down into his seat? |
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It's not like there is a small problem here. The death rate at Reno is appalling. |
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When Reno 2012 starts I will revive this thread to mock you....
In the mean time... http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/STFU_NOOB.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GmAG-JlHT4...255B1%255D.jpg http://troll.me/images/trololo/danny-stfu.jpg Choose one. |
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John Hopkins in their own self-interest wont tell you that you'll never get rich working for somebody - I wont charge you for that nugget of wisdom - I simply like helping people who want it for free. They're just another business like so many others. You leave school with a huge bill to pay and a piece of paper with your name on it that can could also be used for toilet paper in a pinch. Speaking of which....I'll be right back. |
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Reckless, maybe. Reckless is normally associated with youth but in many of these sports you'll notice the competitors are a lot older, due to the fact it takes a considerable amount of experience as well as skill to be able to pass the entrance requirements, let alone qualify or be competitive. Especially so in the case of aircraft racing it would seem. If you truly were reckless there is almost no way you could have survived to take part. No matter though, who they are or how skilled, experienced, young or old, people sometimes get things wrong, whilst doing a great many different things. Sometimes a machine part fails leading to a sequence of events that cannot be averted from that moment forward. Sometimes a sequence of small events over an extended period of time conspire to make a dangerous situation lethal. People like to go fast is the most obvious simplification of why these dangerous activities continue. People also like to admire the machines that help them achieve it, from inside and out. People like to compete with each other to see, who is the fastest? Whose machine is best, practically, aesthetically, audibly? Is it really important? Maybe not. But the interested mind poses these questions automatically and seeks an answer. Why do people climb Everest? for every 15 that summit 1 dies. People want to push the boundaries and see how far, how fast, and maybe go that little bit further. Its an evolutionary necessity that cannot be permanently subdued. I realise that my position might seem to imply that I am in some way unfeeling or uncaring about the recent accident, I assure you that I am not. Every single death is a tragedy, from which I hope people will recover with as much haste and ease as is possible. I am sure you are correct in your assessment of the insurance companies direction, David. That is their business after all. I have said all I can say on the matter. |
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aaawwww guys, is this still going on? The troll must be super-fat by now. You should come and see us also in the "was the battle of britain the first defeat of the Luftwaffe" room though, we're having tea an biscuits there ;) |
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Guys seriously, I've watched this freak troll on now for over six months in various guises, nothing is below his belt, even a thread about untimely deaths fuels his bullshit. No respect for families involved or anything he just uses it for yet another argument.
If you really want this pest to keep going on and on indefinately, of which he will i assure you, then crack on. If not dont feed the creep. David, if your a doctor this world is further up the proverbial creek more than we thought. Glad they have better security checks in Britain. |
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Not intrested you childish cock, go try to upset someone else. My school system taught me honour, dignity and respect, something clearly your highly educated brain feels you can do without.
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NTSB does the incident investigation and analysis, with a final report, determining cause and assigning responsiblity. FAA will do the enforcement actions or issue an equipment AD if warranted. Being that this aircraft was a one off, highly modified airframe, in the experimental category it is highly unlikely there is much for the FAA to rule or enforce hardware wise. The final report will be very relevant for the attorney's in the coming litigation. I noted the N number from the airframe and will follow on the NTSB reporting page as all these reports are public knowledge they are very interesting to read and you learn a lot from them if you are a pilot. |
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david, sorry to hear about ur friend, but life goes on.
And yes clearl.y both parties do understand the risk, pilots die every year inevents like this... Air shows and races as such, onlookers have died in past airshows, threw both accidents and pilot stupidity.... But curiously, the still go. David. I really think that your phobia of all things bad has given you to much time to sit here and individually quote every single persons post. I think its just a little bit lame. I dont care about points of views from suvh people as urself..... Especially since i feel ur goal is to push ur opinion onto others, and make them say "ok, u win". Please do your self a favour, go outside and enjoy the finer things in life, its too short to be scared of everything. Mods, could you please lock this thread? This guy is rediculous, i dont see the point of one guy causing arguments within the entire community. Disgusts me. |
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Nor do I care if you admit that I win. Just stop posting. If the Reno enablers stop posting about how great it is, I'll stop posting about how obscenely dangerous it is. |
This breaks my heart to see these crash I wish they would ban them. Everyone that goes down is one less left for us to enjoy. And thankfully no one on the ground was hurt but it could have easily been disastrous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aajp-A43glA& |
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I guessed right then when i thought you dont even see your own countries servicemen as honorable or deserving of respect. The poor chap who died at reno did so with respect, he was providing aviation lovers with a show, the people whom were unfortunately killed from the crowd, died at a show displaying the aviation they loved. Dont you give them anything less. Being a doctor i think your time is best spend hounding the US health officials to ban smoking and alcohol consumption as they kill MILLIONS of people worldwide every year. So if you really want to be somebody, and make a difference take up that fight for the good of kind. |
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I'm not a doctor. |
Oh darn it. You missed again. What do I got to do to get this though your head? Everyone dies sometime doc.
http://techland.time.com/2011/08/01/...n-on-his-xbox/ |
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Gentlemen,it's evident by now that David Hayward is an individual who finds pleasure in creating this kind of flaming,disregarding any form of respect or compassion for the victims of a tragedy that were there just to enjoy an experience and perished in a tragic accident.
David has already been banned once for his behaviour,my humble advice is that we all make an effort and ignore him,if anything for the respect on the people who died,respect that he seems incapable of,giving more impoertance to his troll hobby than the compassion and solidariety to the victims and their families. Please try and ignore him,cos he won't stop,he obviously has some kind of mental issue.. |
When you can't refute the facts, just call them names!
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Coming from someone who sent me PMs whining about not getting any credit from Luthier, this is pretty funny. |
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When you can't refute the facts, just demand sources (without offering any of your own) :-P Are we having fun yet? Quote:
I think maybe, you need simply to calm down sir, your level of fury towards an activity and group of people who don't affect you in any way whatsoever could lead to health problems. Life is too short, as they say. |
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Go bother people who deliberately destroy lives like the tobacco industry as I've said before. And go book some therapy because you appear to have some deep rooted sociopathic issues. It was an accident but in your quoted statement you clearly believe the pilot and show organizers deliberately and recklessly wanted to kill people. You belive it so much you have stood against many people here arguing with pure insensitiviy and lack of moral respect for an accident that you clearly believe is murder. |
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I find it all very unusual that you speak of the 'Carnage' at reno, when African dictators can slaughter millions, or the president of Iraq can gas thousands, Yet your choice is to basically turn judge and jury about a sporting accident, with nothing to say about world events.
Explain to me and everyone else in this thread why you are insulting the integrity of a dead man under the feint guise of a person who cares about aviation as you previously stated, "I don't care about them. I don't know any of them" and called the relatives of the Deceased "stupid". I see you use "they" alot but clearly you have no idea who they are so you just talk badly about "them" all. |
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People enjoy excitement and risk, don't judge their needs.:grin: |
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Anyway, the point was, we can all use numbers to bolster our point of view, the problem is that the closer you look, the more numbers you need to find to attempt to accurately compare things regarding something abstract like the 'amount' of danger. I believe people have a right to life. If people are having fun (even to the point of dying) and are not harming me or mine, I may object, but I cannot make them stop, and I shouldn't try. If you think it is really that bad then go and work in health and safety or become a paramedic. At least then you could help. What good is it doing you arguing here? Peoples PMs to you are sent in confidence, the least you could do is respect that regardless of how you personally feel towards anyone at any given moment. If you are being harassed then take it up with the forum admins. Airing what people say to you in confidence because they just ticked you off is pretty low to be honest. Regards, Sam. |
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I can't see what the troll is writing (thanks ignore!), but on this point it's generally considered verboten on most forums and would earn you a deserved ban on several I frequent. On-topic, here is the clearest video yet of the events leading up to the accident. No footage of the impact or aftermath, just the mechanical failure and subsequent pull up/roll of Galloping Ghost. This occurs at 07:30 and is repeated several time in slow motion. http://vimeo.com/29519344 Somewhat dry preliminary NTSB report. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...17X22412&key=1 |
Thx for the link Spinner. A really good one.
Just to list the evidences on the vid that we can evenualy hve a discussion on rational grds (at least !) Trailing wheel pop out -> induced bank left -> Pilot action bank right + pitch up -> ctrl ard Roll axis not manageable -> left trim elev separated -> nose down (inverted)... |
First video that I can actually see the trim tab come lose and fly off. Wonder why wheel came down. Speculation is many things. Blackout from tab falling off to seat coming lose.
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OT, thanks for that last video that is as clear a look at the events before the crash as we will ever get. Can anyone see exactly when the tail wheel actually pops out? If it occurs preceding the over bank it could be the cause. Either that or something else broke in the trim system of which the visible sign was the separating left elevator tab moments later. Sadly I think the final results of the investigation will be speculative anyway, due to there being not enough evidence left. Regards, Sam. |
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I can only feel compassion for the people around you in real life, at least here we have an option to put you on the ignore list. But you know what? It has become a matter of principle now, we managed to have you banned once, and we hoped this would teach you a lesson, but obviously it didn't. I think we can have you permanently banned, and maybe it's the best solution for you more than for us, you really really need to have this mental issue of yours addressed for good man, you're kinda scary. |
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I didn't whine with you in private about Luthier though, I explained a perspective on a thread where you behaved just like this. This was back when I thought you could come to reason and accept the fact that people might have an opinion different from yours. Trashing you in public on the other hand had nothing to do with that topic, but hey, I don't think it's me alone here that thinks we could well do without your presence in this forum. |
Trying to get me banned because you can't dispute what I have said about Reno air racing would definitely be a highlight for this board. I can see why Luthier has been mocking you.
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And for the record, I don't need to dispute what you said about Reno, truth is that you know zero about aviation, aerodynamics, FAA regulations and Reno itself, but unlike the others you can't wait for an official report of the FAA, you need to blurt out sentences that are specifically intended to provoke a flame war. Don't you really see how grotesque your show is? I came to the conclusion that it's a hobby of yours, and your style is the signature that distinguishes your disturb. Again, you're trying to provoke a reaction by talking nonsense and mentioning Luthier in a topic that has nothing to do with him. I still think that you should get banned, and not just cos you're a troll, but to help you with your condition, seriously man, if you really are a doctor (ironic that you used the same name of Dr David Hayward from All My Children), you should be able to see that you have a problem yourself. |
Stern, you just broke the irony meter on my PC. I feel bad for Luthier. You have some serious problems.
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both seasons take place across a year, that's really all I need. I hope you can get some help with whatever is troubling you. I am going to ignore you now. Life is too short and your insensitive holier than thou bigotry is rather boring, not to mention repetitive. Peace. Sam. |
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Equating a single Reno event with an entire F1 season is completely absurd. |
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...psssst.... Right back at ya... |
By the way, whether or not I have "issues", 2 die for every 5 Reno events. The math does not change no matter how many issues you think I have.
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Give it a rest or i'm taking out the banhammer. And no, i don't accept PMs about it and won't discuss it further. This thread has been going to the dumps for quite a while now and it's a shame because it does contain valid information and i wouldn't want to lock it and spoil it for everyone who's debating in good spirit.
So i'd rather exclude the agitators and delete their posts so that nobody will know they ever existed, in the interest of providing the majority with a suitable venue to discuss this aviation incident: if it comes to the point where someone has to suffer a penalty, it's the minority that has to suffer for the benefit of the majority, especially if the minority is the one stirring the pot in the first place. Disagreeing about the thread topic = good, it's all about exchanging opinions. Trying to force a personal opinion onto others and turning things personal = e-fascism, it's not tolerated and will be responded to in kind by restricting the posting privileges of the offenders Either learn that you speak for yourself first and foremost and not everyone else, or don't bother posting any further. Excuse my blunt tone, but it seems that being polite and long-winded is seen as a weakness by some, so i'll say it in a language that will be better understood by them: don't disrupt the forum discussions by making things personally antagonistic, by bogging every discussion down to the usual drivel it's encroaching on the freedom of other members to use the forum in its intended manner and it's something that's taken very seriously by the moderating team. So either straighten up and fly right or GTFO and don't return. I can easily ban someone and delete every single one of their posts, which is a troll's biggest fear: nobody will know they were ever here. So either play nice with other people or go to your room and play by yourself. Some people need to understand that not everyone will agree with them and when each side has presented their opinion and arguments, it's a good time to call it a day and have all involved parties agree that they disagree. End of. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...atal_accidents
That's only drivers not including team members and civilians... and only F1 not the other races! Yes in recent years safety restrictions have reduced the number of fatalities, but look at the amount of money they have that allowed them to do that and how different it is to flying.... To be perfectly honest comparing these two sports is rather foolish! |
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How does Reno's record of 2 pilot deaths for every 5 events compare to those 2 race series? |
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They are far more comparable than F1 :confused: :rolleyes: |
This is from the Red Bull website:
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In any case, you didn't answer the question. How does Reno's record of 2 pilot deaths per 5 events compare to the other aircraft race series? Considering that Red Bull hasn't had a fatality yet, I'm guessing that Reno doesn't look very good in comparison |
So, as statement that Red Bull intends to "further improve the already high levels of safety" means that it "was stopped before anyone was killed". That is utter hogwash, and even for a troll, a poor effort...
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By the way, what is wrong with saying that it was shut down before anyone was killed? No one was killed in the series. I'm not seeing the problem with that? |
The problem is with your logic. But whatever - you seem keen to demonstrate your stupidity further, so why should I bother arguing...
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It's obvious that when in a topic there's a call for respect on dead people and this is not taken into consideration, there's something that doesn't quite add, if anything to common sense. |
He doens't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with him either. Accepting that an argument is not a "win/lose" convincing contest but a means to see different perspectives by talking to people of different dispositions and all that jazz ;)
It's more the manner that i find disrupting of the normal conversation flow, stating an opinion and presenting some arguments vs being repetitively antagonistic for the sake of it. Quote:
I just don't like pointing fingers specifically so i describe a situation and let it sink in on its own, if anyone is guilty of it rest assured that he knows who he is and what kind of moderating action to expect ;) |
As more facts are learned about what happened this would be an interesting thread. Just don't reply to the agitator(s). :) Talk around them. I think Jimmy had something happen to him like a stoke or something. There was a new video posted that clearly shows the trim tab coming off well after the climb-n-roll. Which makes me thinks perhaps he jerked the stick back for some reason causing enormous stress to be placed on the air-frame causing the tab to fly off.
P.S. We're all human and subject to venting now and then. |
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Secondly instead of pointing fingers at him you should realize that if you look at this thread objectively most of you guys are ganging up on him, insulting, twisting words etc. as well. Not sure who started it but the way I see it it's only logical: This is a forum for plane lovers (warbirds even) so it's natural that many are defending a lost cause. It's a fact that reno races are a risky gamble, due to many mechanics of this series, and not a controlled environment. They should re-think their safety standards. That doesn't mean it has to be banned though. The way I see it the series needs to take a break and see how they could improve like Red Bull does it. I mentioned a dozen of things they could do to improve, to say that there is nothing that could be done is just wrong. That said I also don't believe that a trim tab needs to come off. But I also can barely believe that just a trim tab falling off would be the cause. I assume there was something happening before it came off but it's hard to say what at this point. I guess we'll have to wait for an official report. |
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Winny thank you for posting this!! Much appreciated!!
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"In 1999, another highly modified P-51 called Miss Ashley II, piloted by Gary Levitz, lost its trim tab during an Unlimited race. It pitched violently upward just as Galloping Ghost did. When it went vertical, the plane broke up..." That means 3 racing Mustangs have lost trim tabs!! :-( Why did they not abandon using them after 2 accidents? |
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Simply because it's the 3rd time it's happened. I only knew of 2. I reckon that you only need 2 similar accidents to identify a problem. As you said why were they still using them? For them to continue racing when they knew that the failiure of the trim tab resulted in such a violent reaction, and had resulted in one of the aircraft breaking up mid air, was at the very least reckless. |
Ban the modded P-51 unless they can find and remove the source of the failure and remove it.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCBbo...layer_embedded
Enough talk of bans. If you cannot understand this, then I have nothing else for you. |
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