not even Einstein could conceive an effective method of defining a single object's position and velocity at the same moment... even with his theory of relativity

the object's course and velocity could be defined over a range of moments or it's position for any given moment, but not velocity and position at the same moment. ("moment", of course being a snapshot)

Untestable empirically.
Not provable mathematically or logically.
Might be a useful philosophical or mathematical tool in some respects, but then so are counterfactuals, which are also untrue.
Confuses the civilians.

All in all it would be better if you left the word "exists" to its normal use (you know, for things that actually do exist like flight-simmers, kittens and the idea of possible parallel universes) and instead used the world "grolphs".

Then you could say "parallel universes grolph in parallel to this universe, not as mathematical objects in this universe though" ;)

Love these discussions.

So is Heisenberg next?

perhaps ;)

err, when all these theories were thought up and calculations made(bearing in mind that earlier rock solid calculations and theories have been modified according to new facts), did any of them take eveything into account?

something asked before: some witnesses have stated that the UFO/s they saw took off at immense (seemingly impossible) speed and other made sharp 90 degree turns at high speed. how could this be?

[QUOTE=NedLynch;320593] Something that puzzles me is also, if the universe is finite one should be able theoretically to reach it's end and to look at it from the outside. But what is on the outside, another finite universe, infinite space, nothing? QUOTE]

if the universe is finite then there is no outside.

in other words, there is no exsistance outside of the universe, because there is no outside.

[QUOTE=patrat1;320872]in theory evrything that exists is filled with the 'void' beyond the universe....all the space between atoms is just empty nothing.

Well nothing in theory land is ever rock solid as far as i'm concerned.
It's just the way we try to discribe reality

As in maths the problems begin when we try to interpret things.
Or should I say "fun".

the old way to negate free will was determinism

but then they realized it didnt impli no free will but that even things ahve free will

failing they invented the many world theories

if you take all choices you take none you have no free will

the true is the universe is deterministic as matrix explains you take choices outised time and then live it to know why you took that choice :)

[QUOTE=bongodriver;320877]Actually there is no "empty" space, anywhere. Even the darkest intergalactic voids are filled with passing neutrinos and momentary particle/anti-particle pairs that appear briefly to cancel each other out.

The only thing that "travels" faster than the speed of light is the expansion of the universe itself witch is causing the space & time between everything and everything else to expand like raisins on a rising loaf of bread.

Ironically, recent calculations from WMAP observations show the universe to be flat within about 15% accuracy.

Chew on some of that. :-P

Yes, the Earth was flat at one stage too, as well it was "provable" that the sun (geo-centrics) revolved around the Earth... It is only logical that if the sun, moon, planets and stars are seen to be moving and we are not, it must be because they are moving... here! I ask you (they said at the time) is the Earth moving? no (they replied) we cannot see that the Earth is moving... good, it was offered, it proves without a doubt that the Earth is the centre of all the heavens.


yeah right :rolleyes:


Which brings me back to my question of; some witnesses saw UFo's zip off at high speed and others said they performed sharp 90 degree turns at high speed.

Why is it that we on Earth move with the Earth, and aren't flung off or find moving against her rotation difficult, with gyroscopic events such as the corioli effect being apparent?

Could it be, that gravity and magnetic field act as a kind of integrity field, making all behave as one?
The corioli effect of throwing a ball between two people on opposites of a playground carousel apply whichever way the carousel is spinning.
Do UFO's run a something similar field, thus enabling them to operate as a contained unit in which ship and occupants move as one??

It's probably the same field which allowed the Starship Enterprise to accelerate to the speed of light without any apparent affect on the occupants.

That's not actually true, there was a profound increase in "make up" calls:grin:

Witness testimoney as well as photographic evidence indicates that in all likelyhood ET's are here. There is more proof of ET than OF Jesus and people actually think he was real and we have ZERO proof ofhis exsistance.
Check out these videos with credible military personnel from private to General talking about there UFO/ET experiances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmw_oNIXsGs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMSHY...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UJ2Z...eature=related

Cow mutilations and crop circles is proof enough!:grin:

UFOs',

Yes, I think that they are at least possible. I've seen one or two things in the sky that defied explanation. We live in a big universe filled lots of stuff about which we have very little knowledge.

Roswell,

No, I'm certain it is a myth but equally certain that the official explanation is a lie.

It was a balloon being tested for high altitude electronic snooping which contained chimps. The balloon capsule failed (or was deliberately compromised) at high altitude and depressurized. The 'alien' misconception comes from the reflective, foil-like material used in it's construction and the effects of depressurization on it's crew. (swollen, distended heads etc.)

The cover-up was simply Cold War SOP.

How do you explain the Army report of a flying disc?? What about all the military personnel involved that have come forward in recent years that were there and confefssed to what actually happened (ufo etc). What good is a death bed confession if your dead??

Quite simply the public infatuation with 'discs' provided a convenient red herring.

Also, the craft would have been spherical, a spherical object falling from 40,000 ft would look rather disc like after impact.

the way i understand it, there is no void beyond the universe.

because there is no beyond, outside of the universe. like i said, there is no outside.

at least thats my understanding of it.

Isnt thisthread about UFO's?? What does the size or speed of the universe have to do with UFO's??? Start a new thread on the origins of the universe already!!

I read the book (The Disclosure Project) and I must say there are a heck of a lot of interesting accounts by people with excellent credentials. Fascinating read.

Credentials, schmedentials.

Over half a century of testimony of people seeing lights in the skies.

Over half a century of chancers claiming to have worked at this secret base or that.

Over half a century of friends of cousins of grandfathers crawling out of the woodwork to claim they held in their hands some weird metallic material on a ranch in New Mexico.

Over half a century of special people and their 'support groups' drearily interpreting their nightmares as alien abductions.

Over half a century of reports of 'craft' travelling this way and that at hypersonic speed through the atmosphere.

Over half a century of hundreds of flying saucers crashing into every acre of land that ever heard of a 'Grey'.

Over a decade of practically everyone in North America and Europe having a camera-phone or cam-corder.

And yet....and yet....

Not one single nut.

Not one single bolt.

Not one sliver of tangible evidence that any of this fantasy has any basis in reality whatsoever.


BTW: Google Dr.Steven Greer + 'Vectoring In' if you want a good laugh. Alex Heard gives a good account of him in Apocalypse Pretty Soon....he's a nutcase. He's the Richard C. Hoagland for the UFO community.

Let me guess ...you think jesus is real though right with 2000 years of no evidence ha ha

Umm....no.

Actually, there is more evidence that Jesus (the man) existed, than for UFO's, which is far more than "zero". Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet there is none. NONE. All we are left with is a social phenomenon that is far more interesting in itself than a bunch of contradictory evidence about whether we get visited by aliens.

Even with that said, one can't logically discount the possibility any more than leprechaun invasions of Ireland, so I'll reserve total judgement until someone hands me a space-nut or bolt.

I think Jesus did exist, but whether the son of God, well...that's getting into religious discussion which I've no interest in, and would, incidentally, likely get this thread locked. ;)

Not one eyewitness account NOT ONE. Where you come saying there is more proof for jesus than ufos' is incredible. what proof..the bible is not proof its a book of theology aka story book with nothing in history to corroborate it.

Not neccessarily.

The problems with evidence is that if for example Joe Soap alleges he saw or experienced something, he will either be labeled a crackpot or discredited. If someone in a position of importance sees or experiences something, he most likely will shut up about it. If not, he too would most likely be labeled a crackpot or dicredited. It's usually one or the other.

Hypothetical situation:

Some 'strange' craft crashes in my field. What do I do?
Well, most likely I would phone the local police station. They get to the scene and realise immediately that this is something that requires a higher authority. In comes the army/FBI.
Whatever evidence there is, will be confiscated right away in the interests of national security.

But let's say I don't phone the cops. I phone the local newspaper, or the local rag magazine. They come out, realise it's a huge story (potentially) and run a feature, claiming all sorts of wierd and wonderful things. There I stand with some strange piece of metal in a photo on the front page, claiming that it came from a UFO. I claim I have a truck load of the stuff back on my farm.

Depending on the credibility of the paper, it could go from a local joke into something more serious, and if so, I think I'd get a visit from a government agent before too long, if taken seriously.
Then what?

Maybe I send some pieces to a laboratory to be tested before notifying anyone. Maybe the test come back as 'unknown substance.' Would the lab phone me and tell me that, phone the local newspaper and ask them to run a story, or would they realise that they're dealing with something that needs to be reported to a higher authority like the military or a government agency? I'm guessing the latter?

No matter which way it goes, if something genuinely unexplained happened, then sooner or later (but most likely sooner) the military and government steps in, and they have all the resources under the sun to provide a counter-argument or provide counter-evidence to whatever people say. They have the authority to confiscate anything in anyone's possession in the interests of national security.

That to me is the problem with evidence in these cases.

But can we ignore the evidence of air, land and naval radar operators that have simultaneously tracked craft doing things and travelling speeds well beyond the envelope of any known aircraft? Why doesn't that count as evidence?
Is every single sighting (even by experienced pilots etc.) one of mistaken identity, tiredness or confusion?

Let's put it another way: no evidence of top secret black projects exist either. Not officially. Not one nut, one bolt. No evidence.
But we know they exist.

Relax with the religious talk, mate. It's off-limits. :)

False analogy.

We know 'black projects' exist because we do have evidence for them. I can visit the museum and walk around a U2, an SR-71 or a F-117. No doubt in 25 years i'll be able to examine whatever the Skunk Works is working on today.

On the other hand in over 50 years of breathless testimony no-one as yet has been able to prove the existence of even an Extra Terrestrial 'post-it' note, let alone space-ship.

And best of all are the government agencies. They have been magnificent, haven't they? Who knew they could keep such a secret under wraps for so long. Bravo.

This ET stuff actually is religious talk. Just look at the similarities....

UFO-Land has its own prophets to warn us of impending catastrophes. It has its own culturally specific witnesses, revered artefacts that get sent to some 'laboratory in Russia', dark forces pulling the strings in the background. Seems a hell of a lot of hard work to core out a cow's anus if you ask me.

radar traces are routinely recorded and can be saved in case of any significant event, why has no controller ever pulled the tapes on a claimed sighting? pilots are just people, we don't all think alike like robots, we are all as individual as the next person, so it is reasonable to assume 'some' pilots are inclined to believe in UFO's and magic fairies and will use their apparent social standing to prop up the credibility of their alleged sightings.

I for one don't believe the goverments of the world are capable of concealing any existence of ET's, if they really are visiting us then they are beyond the jurisdiction of our authorities, secret bases and installations are for nothing more than secret earthly research and development.

Arguments noted guys.

All I'm saying is that personally I choose to keep an open mind on the subject. That's all.
Hey, maybe 99.9% of what constitutes 'evidence' of UFO's existing is false and fake. But even if 0.1% seems to be genuine, then that to me is interesting.

Bongo - Apparently (and I say this with great caution) tapes have been pulled. Thing is, who gets to review them and decide if it's genuine or not?

Lixma, my point was that yes, we know black projects exist because we have been allowed to know. The SR-71 and other aircraft was eventually disclosed.
But how many years was that plane in development, being worked on ,tested, flown etc. before anyone outside of those that needed to know, knew a thing? And the same applies to any other plane that has come before or since as well. (Or any other piece of top-secret hardware for that matter.)

Who is the person or body that is running the inside scoop on the projects and revealing them to the public?

Nothing is off limits even mythology

Calm down my friend, really. I'm not here to convert you from your UFO religion! I say "religion" because it seems you have the same sort of myopic zeal that some religious people have when their views are challenged by rational debate.

I just find it highly unlikely given what passes for "evidence" that ET has visited us, raped our cows and left sci-fi looking crop circles and aerobatics to enthrall us. Doesn't mean I'm right but let's just say I would take that bet any day of the week at good odds. Hell, in a way I wish I was wrong and some evidence would come forward since that would be the biggest scientific discovery of all time! Unfortunately, for all those years I wanted to believe, there just wasn't anything compelling enough - beyond some cool stories by sincere people - to lend any credence to the phenomenon.

Rattlesnake has the right outlook and makes a personal decision to believe there's something to the UFO phenomenon despite the unlikelyhood.

There's plenty of non-religious, yes circumstantial and sometimes circumspect, evidence of the existence of Jesus. His early Christianity wasn't even the most popular among the collection of prophets roaming around at the time, just that it was a useful tool for a certain future Roman emperor named Constantine...but that's another story.

Anyway, try not to take rational discussion personally and have an open mind to the possibility that everything you have wanted to believe may or may not be happening in the real world, and I will do the same!

Another assumption that can be shown as mistaken. ;)

5. Political and religious discussions are prohibited.


http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=25163

The difference is that these aircraft/projects are conceived and controlled from day one by the government. They know exactly where these aircraft are and where they will be at any given moment. They have the luxury of dedicated, strictly off-limits test ranges in which to fly these aircraft and when they do venture out into public airspace the controllers know exactly the expected flight path. So if anything goes wrong there is an established infra-structure that will kick in to recover the aircraft ASAP. But all this is still at the mercy of the Real World. The U2 was as top secret as they come - and yet it went from first flight to being very publicly shot down in the space of just 5 years. Secrecy is almost impossible to maintain and easily lost.

Compare that to the ET situation. Allegedly, extra terrestrial craft are zooming about all over the globe. Presumably our governments have no say in where or when they fly. So if a saucer comes down (and is discovered) it will be the locals, the emergency services, the press and the police that come into contact with the wreckage/bodies long before the black helicopters even spool up their engines. The government will be the last ones to know and the last ones to react. But by that time it would have gotten out. And even if 'they' managed to put a lid on that particular crash there's always the next one. And the next one.

There is no government on Earth that could successfully keep the existence of regular visits/crashes by extra terrestrials under wraps. Goverments cannot control what they have no control over.

Sorry for getting all aphoristic at the end there.

:lol::lol: I actually burst out laughing at that one.
If we start seeing cows with big onion heads and big dark scary eyes does that end the argument? :-P

IM not discussing it. Im stating FACTS which are not up for discussion!

actually the size and speed of the universe do have to do with the chances of there being alien civilizations out there. most people consider ufos to come from alien civilazations if im not mistaken.

but your right, we are getting off topic with discussing whether theres an outside or not to the universe. so i'll desist in discussing it further.

This is a cg reproduction about what I saw in Italy in 2009. I don't know what it is but I remember that was quite scary...

You were the kid that snitched off the other kids in school, huh?

Juat a lot of film showing F-117's at night. Yes, they still show them as evidence of 'alien spacecraft'. Together with some borderline schizophrenics talking about abductions. Give me a break.

And Jesus was just a good socialist attempting to work under the yoke of a military dictatorship.

Karl Marx - Equal distribution of wealth, JC- 5 loaves and three fishes. Or is it 3 loaves and 5 fishes? Turn over the tables of the moneylenders anyone? 'No, no crucify him'. Good socialist. Not a deity.

well... it all sorta, kinda, ties in together

When the whole credibility thing comes up I can't help but think of the airline pilots who were reporting over comms about this UFO until they started to come in to land and realized against the treeline it was a piece of wheat stuck to their window.

Or that cop that chased Venus down winding roads for half a state not realizing it was him that was moving not his foo fighter. :-P

there is a possibility of UFO's . . . I think there is. Do i believe those alien shows?

Nope. Not since the alien autopsy hoax and the pictures of triangular shaped aircraft that looks like have blue.

Or the one with the cylindrical shaped rocket that burned and gave radiation burns to the witnesses (US govt testing of nuclear jet engines . . .) and how brilliant and awesome coloring the exhaust was . . .


astronomers are discovering more solar systems with a sun with a planet in the habitable "ring"* for earth based life.

*orbit / zone / distance from sun to sustain life without frying or freezing it


But alien life may have a different set of natural boundaries and laws set up for it and may not require the same habitable ring


At the same time sun dancing making lights on off your canopy can explain
that bend the laws of aerodynamics as human aerospace vehicles are capable



And why do you have to bring religion into this. The Christians have 1 UP in this area because TONS of credible witness to weird things, like WW 2 nuking and the only building left at ground zero was German Christian missionary home or how they have tons of saints where their bodies are uncorrupted for hundreds of years.



Human understanding only gets us so far. We don't know everything, nor will we ever be.

That's why its in the human spirit to question, to ask, to seek. And sometimes some shortchange by finding the quick answer or making up truth.

Well since you asked, because people believe in there mythological person despite no evidence yet make fun of UFO's when there are hundreds of credible witness's.
And contrary to your claims of evidence there is none despite your wishfull thinking. I have been researching mythological deities for several years and everyone has ended up being false or just another myth.

We nuked Germany in WW2? I thought that was Japan. Witness to something rare is not proof of anything. Saints are normal people.
If that is your standard for evidence than by your definition UFO's are 100% real.

UFO's, ET life and the mysteries of the universe are fascinating topics. When I look up in the middle of the night I am looking back in time. How far back in time depends on the distance of the star or galaxy.

It may well be that what I am looking at no longer exists or something that does exist in my present time period has yet to appear. Life may well have established itself but what I and observatories see is the historical past not the present.

I saw a documentary on SETI and the search criteria is extremely narrow in terms of the Radio Frequency that is being searched for. SETI may never actually reveal or find evidence as it is has to work with assumptions.

Me, I keep an open mind. Charles C Clarke said something along the lines that the implications for mankind were equally imense if we were not alone or discovered that we were alone!

My only encounter with UFO's was during the weekend at 1-30 am.................on the Syndicate server!

omg, something round in the ocean?

Well, I take everything I said back now!

U.F.O. exist in the planet earth from over 1000 years past ago.
TODAY U.S.A. U.K. FRANCE RUSSIA ENGLAND GERMANY ITALY(VATICAN) have this secret.
OBAMA have this secret in the blue book.
ANTARTIDE is THE KEY OF ALL SECRETS yes in ANTARDITE EXIST SECRET BASE FOR STUDY NEW TECNOLGY AND NEW FORM EXTRATERRIASTRIAL LIFE.
BASE IN ATRDITE ITALY FRANCE U.S.A. U.K. RUSSIA GERMANY ecc.ec.

what about the mess that is the disclosure project ?

I really hate to harp on you Oldschool61, and respect your apparent strong faith in aliens, but when you come up with glaring logical fallacies all in one paragraph it's difficult to ignore.

You may want to hit the books a bit harder as there happens to be quite a few historically documented witnesses of the man "Jesus" and his cult than just the bible. Personally, I don't think he was the "son of God" but it doesn't mean he didn't exist.

But anyway, I find it amusing how you managed to miss that in your extensive "research" and yet are so willing to label UFO witnesses as credible and somehow make the leap of logic that alien visitations are more "true" because of this.

Be honest with yourself. You choose to believe in cow-punching, sky-dancing visitors from space simply on faith because of a preponderance of circumstantial second-hand stories by people you don't know, yet somehow are credible because of a badge or pilot's license.

The incredible irony here is that you are so quick to dismiss the experience of millions of people, from all walks of life including pilots and police, that claim personal experience of their God, yet will take perhaps thousands of UFO alien claims as somehow overwhelming evidence.

I'm fine with the fact you believe in alien flying saucers but from my perspective, and the standard of logical reasoning, it's just as likely there is a bearded man up there arbitrarily judging us as there are grey aliens with big eyes doing the same.

The Disclosure Project is just another strain of modern apocalypticism. It's the same phenomena seen in religious faiths, conspiracy communities (9/11, JFK, Illuminati etc), 2012 Mayan prophecies and extreme political movements.

'Disclosure' is the UFO community's equivalent of the 'unbinding of seals'; a time when all will be revealed, governments come clean, the scales will fall from our eyes, and the believers will be vindicated. And all this is going to happen any second now so be prepared! But in the meantime please consider buying our latest DVD or attending our convention where we reveal even more evidence of this nefarious cover up.

I mentioned him earlier but it's worth Googling Dr. Steven Greer. Among other lunacies attributable to him he used to go out into fields with a pair of flash-lights and wave them about. He was doing this, he claimed, in order to 'vector in' ET craft. Yes, it is as dumb as it sounds.

hehe indeed it is the best of bullpoo. What is the name of that mountain that folks sit under watching the lights ? ive seen a british program following the same nonsense, well it did feature danny dyer.

i remeber a long interview with clifford stone LOL it wasn't bad untill he announced he was prone to having invisable friends as a child LOL \o/

edit: heres the vid part 3, i cant bring myself to watch it again but its in 1 of the several parts.(part4@08:50) "he played with other children that nobody else could see, and for him that was normal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-rn3olxvhE

Another fabulous cliche i love with all this is the "special effects video editor captures alien spacecraft on video" LOL \o/ \o/ \o/

By Jove! We're talking serious woo with this Clifford Stone chap.

Underground bases, wormholes, 57 different species of aliens including reptilians, an alien chum called Corona....it never ends.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...typologies.htm

But, hey.....he was a Sergeant in the U.S. Army so it's probably true.

I, for one, welcome our new DRAGONWORM overlords.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...en_races00.htm

Oh, some of these are just too good!

Excerpts from the helpful index of Alien species....

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...en_races00.htm

So there!

Actually your mistaken about the historical evidence "documented witnesses" thats funny becasuse there are none. Debunking mythical christian deities has become my pastime since I dropped out of being a catholic sheeple. If one spends time with an open mind and see's the big picture with all the bad thinks religion has caused "hitler comes to mind" the more one see's that its all ancient mythology. There are several deities that have the nearly the same stories as Hesus. Horus , Mythra etc.. all born of a virgin, raised someone from dead etc hundreds of years earlier and same magical doings yet not one eyewitness.

Surely you do not mean this (if I am right in thinking that by "bearded man" you mean a conventional patriarchal deity)?

The existence of grey aliens with big eyes is an empirical issue - you assert (and I would agree) that there is no credible evidence for their existence. But without an assumption that life only evolved once in the universe there is surely a tiny possiblity that they are indeed there, watching and judging from behind their stealth fields, descending occasionally to probe the fundament of an unwary midwesterner.

By contrast, the existence or otherwise of a patriarchal deity is not an empirical matter of uncertain status. So probability does not come into it.

(Disclaimer: this comment should not be taken to be part of a religious discussion. It is a comment about what a religious discussion is).

So how can they be "equally likely"?

On another note it is surprising how long governments used to be able to keep secrets - take the Polish/UK cracking of the German Ultra code in WW2. Hundreds of people knew something about this and many a great deal, yet the general public and even professional military historians had no idea until sometime in the seventies, IIRC, when the records were released. In those days, when some elderly officer in a regimental tie sat you down and told you that you could never discuss your work even with your family, you did what you were told. Not sure how that would work now....

Sounds like you're arguing with a strawman. I would agree, personally, that religion is a construct of man in order to influence or control other people much like the bulk of alien mythology. Strange that you do not see the correlation there.

I'm just saying there are "witnesses" for Jesus the man not trying to imply that this would necessitate him being the son of a God. How many times do I have to say this?

Lastly, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone these days that believe in the mythical deities you mention so I doubt it's much of a life-calling to debunk them. I merely point out the irony in your alien religion (you believe in them out of faith not evidence since, well...there isn't any).

Other than that, I agree with you. ;-)

Sure there is. It's also remotely possible that Luthier is one of them and has to travel a couple hundred lightyears back to the office on Rigel, hence his understandable lack of communication. ;)

Seriously though, I don't look at it as impossible but simply very unlikely given the circumstances. Seems far more likely to me that it's a social and psychological phenomenon.

Because both religions have multitudes of faith-based believers with no evidence beyond internal or second-hand experience. Hell, isn't the notion of God essentially an "alien" being by definition? So just different flavours of the same ice cream. Sure, that makes sense and again it isn't impossible to hold a secret but like Lixma says, we're talking over 50 years here, multiple governments that can't agree on anything else, and one or multiple alien species visiting our planet wherever the hell they feel like it. I say, do the math.

People seem to have a need for the more dramatic story over the mundane, and answers for the cold finality of life and death. The UFO phenomenon seems to me to be a pseudo-scientific fill-in for the hole left behind from the decline of religion.

Until I get that alien paperclip or bumper sticker to run through some real scientific testing then I'll remain a skeptic with an open mind. After 30+ years of interest and fascination with the UFO phenomenon lets just say that it's had a more than reasonable chance to come up with something beyond some spooky documentaries and fuzzy pics to pass muster.

Just a quick post on the complete charlatanism of Dr. Steven Greer. Head of the Disclosure Project. Numero Uno of the "ETs are visiting us" community.

First take a look at this forum post titled "The latest from Steven Greer".

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showt...t=Greer+Latest

Some choice highlights....

Yeah, the United Nations are working on that i've every confidence.

In the meantime people are getting impatient....

You're going to be waiting a while longer i'm afraid. Anyone who has visited the Rapture Ready forums will see the same depressing sights. "How long oh Lord must we wait?".

Luckily for all concerned Dr. Greer has a whole raft of initiatives to keep your wallet slim while we wait for the inevitable revelations.

Training for what?, you may ask. Training yourself to contact ETs no less!

Here's a 2 week trip to Stonehenge (natch) where you can sit around pretending your in contact with aliens. And it's only $3840!

http://www.cseti.org/england2011.shtml

But if you can't afford that there's always an alternative. How about an iPhone app? Yes indeed, the perfect gift for the ET contactee on the move.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6161/tardis.jpg


Here's a picture of the cretin....

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7140/twat.gif

Remember kids, if you think this man is in any way credible - you are an idiot.

:cool:

There are no historical writings or records from primary or contemporary witnesses in the first half of the first century that mention the Jesus of christianity. Philo of Alexandria is the best know historian that lived during the time of the alleged jesus. Yet not once does he ever mention anyone close to jesus. He never even mentions the town of Nazareth which is alleged to be where jesus is from. Not one historian prior to the 3rd century ever mentions a historical town of nazareth. The town didnt exist in historical record until the 3rd century. So how could jesus be born in a city that didnt exist? Josephus never even mentions it.

Actually I give the guy props. He found himself a niche job that pays very well and made himself a rockstar amongst his following.

Of course, much like Scientology or anyone in the Psychic field, there's nothing to what he's teaching but he knows that quite well and is more than willing to help fools part with their money willingly.

I'm thinking of setting up a tertiary business to siphon some of that easy money off, hook myself with some credentials, and making an assload of money. The beauty of the internet is that it makes a pretty good freak-funnel. Anyone want in on this?

Start your own church!! Tax free and you dont have to prove anything.
You sell an invisable product, couldnt be easier!!

Hmm, I suck at sermons. And the competition seems a bit daunting out there in that field.

I admit it will be hard to pull off the whole nerd look but at least I don't need to wear a 3 piece suit, just an official golf shirt (avail. soon for $39.95 in green only).

Pseudo-science FTMFW! :cool:

Isn't that Greer bloke the same one who said he worked at Roswell helping to back engineer alien spacecraft, and the fact that there were no records of this in existence was a CIA coverup?

The one who has a number of fraud convictions that were also fabricated by the CIA?
The one who's still earning millions giving 'lectures on his experiences'.

Or is that another money hungry moral free cretin?

I believe you're thinking of one Bob Lazar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2172/boblazar.gif

That's the gentleman in question. Thanks mate!

Hey the simpletons need someone to throw their money at and I'm much better looking than these guys!

I must admit that Steven Greer sounds like a nut. I read that one book of his (Disclosure Project) and much in it sounded plausible, but I had no idea of his other claims.

They have pictures of Fuzzies? This is amazing! Where do I get my ticket to Zarathustra????

http://www.manybooks.net/titles/piperh1813718137.html

hard to argue with someone like mercury astronaut gordon cooper and apollo edgar mitchell,even armstrong said they are real.
their comments are pretty hard to ignore and the fact they got alot closer than any of us

history shows us that anything the governments tell you is generally the opposite

two good ones to watch on Utube

greatest story ever denied
and
out of the blue

well worth the effort to watch them

Salute

I was abducted by aliens when I was 11. They anally probed me. I didn't like it























At first. :grin:

The biggest lies are perpetuated by carefully sewing little grains of truth. For a person who wants to believe something, the little truth is enough to legitimize the grand lie.

I believe the only way to free ourselves from manipulation be it little white lies from a friend we like, corporate fanboism/anti-fanboism, or grander scale manipulations like 9/11 conspirasists or Astrology; is to subject everything you take in to the cold, harsh light of logic, to the best of our ability. Even then, our subconscious bias will nudge us into directions we wish to believe but the more vigilant and open minded we are the less chance we have to become a tool for someone else's agenda.

''I was abducted by aliens when I was 11. They anally probed me. I didn't like it. At first :D''


In the UK, this is referred to as 'The National Health Service'. ;)

Or "public school". ;-)

According to a friend of mine the aliens have a base on the dark side of the moon, and also the moon is hollow because the little green critters are mining it. He also went on to tell me that when one of the Apollo capsules passed behind the moon(dont know which one) one of the astronauts said to NASA "There is a Santa Claus". This my friend told me meant that they could see the alien factories. He also told me there is a NASA recording of Neil Armstrong saying that they were been watched as they took a moon walk. On a side note this person isnt my friend anymore!!

So we are mostly agreed that the "little green men" advocates are wrong and either frauds or sincere but in the grip of a quasi-religious world view: but are they not harmless?

Given the extraordinary sorts of beliefs that flourish in the world (carefully not identifying the main culprits for fear of retribution - they get SO ANGRY when their precious beliefs are held up to ridicule, or even inspection), I would have thought that the UFOlogists are among the least harmful of cranks.

Perhaps they should be encouraged: after all they are highly unlikely to be converted to sceptical empiricism if dissuaded of their beliefs, more likely to plunge into something more irrational and dangerous that satisfies their probing cravings.

Today Wednesday we will hear of many UFO site ings :grin:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...sonicPlane.jpg

Here is out of the blue it has Col. Gordon Cooper and Dr Edgar Mitchell,
but what do these retards know they are just astronuts right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBRX2OwnfY8

Now you're starting to get it, although I wouldn't go so far as to call them retards. But being highly respected astronauts does kinda make them experts on everything else of course. :roll: Even still, what I saw was them speculating on the chances for life in the galaxy, same as I believe, not that they are here to save the enlightened few from the tyranny of co-workers that call you a nerd under their breath at the water cooler. I didn't watch long enough to see if they had UFO stories like the one that fooled John Glenn(?). I'll bet that was embarrasing!:grin:

I could only stomach about the first 5 minutes of this "documentary" what with the spooky space theme music, Ken Burns effect on still photos of gaseous nebulae, and the quick interview blurbs. C'mon people haven't you seen the same kind of "documentary" techniques for retarded ideas like Nostradamus and killer bees overtaking the world?

Much like the global warming models, the Drake equation is at best a very shallow attempt at quantifying the likelihood of intelligent life on other planets in our galaxy. Unfortunately, it is already being revised based on new things we're learning about extra solar planetary systems that factor in more dynamics that Drake never considered. But even still I have to say with the multitude of stars in our galaxy it seems likely there's life, even intelligent life out there! There I said it.

However, unless you like to believe in magic wands or leprechauns just because they sound pretty cool, we have nothing to indicate there's any practical means of travel at or beyond the speed of light. Sure maybe we just don't know enough yet but there isn't anything that even suggests the possibility of maybe transporting a particle let alone a living being safely, so that means you choose to believe in magic, just...because.

So given that universal limitation that puts any star beyond let's say 50 light years away at the point of being impractical for visitation. Not so many stars now huh? It's ok to consider the possibility that an advanced alien race found some way around it, or maybe they live indefinitely and can spend lots of time on a space ship, or whatever, but at the point you make the leap of logic to say "yes, there are aliens here" you might as well just decide to believe in the neighbourhood garden gnomes stealing one sock out of your drawer every wash cycle.

If you've been around in life long enough and paid attention you'd realize that all those spooky documentaries about the coming ice age, the Y2K disaster and the coming 2012 apocalypse are simply "what if" entertainment pieces thrown together by a production team looking to get the most "ooohs" and "ahhhhs" out of you to keep your attention long enough to watch the ads.

Yeah, astronauts really are the authority on UFOs.(?)

Ed Mitchell? He expressly says in the video you posted his only evidence of ETs was that he'd spoken to a couple of un-named* sources. 'Out of the Blue' has all the credibility of 'Loose Change'.

If that's your standard of evidence then you really ought to listen to Coast to Coast AM. On there you can nightly hear people claiming to be in contact with Nasa insiders, or FBI whistleblowers, or ex-CIA operatives, or 'Ascended Masters, the Greys...etc.

* surprise surprise.

One of the best means of "protecting" a situation, is to give factual information to discredited nutter outlets and false information to credible outlets....

So, I visited Youtube and typed in 'UFO con....'.

I selected a video that mentioned Ed Mitchell. In it he goes on about how we should join this 'galactic community' or some such....it's the standard spiel*.

If you're a masochist, here it is....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu_7hd5B-dc&feature=fvsr

But the true gems are to be found in the comments. A selection...

Quality stuff.

* Let me say i've all the time in the world for pioneering astronauts. I used to be quite the M/G/Apollo buff. But that doesn't mean they get a free pass when they venture into woo-woo territory.

Indeed. The Apollo astronauts themselves all found life a bit difficult after the moon. Who wouldn't? I'd imagine once you've been there, done that, all else seems trivial.

There's a good read by Andrew Smith called 'Moondust'. It's a simple book where Smith - in around 1999/2000 - interviews the men who went to the moon .

It's quite a sad tale of alcoholism, mental breakdown, divorce, finding God and/or religious cults, and talented but obsessive behaviour such as Al Bean painting great pictures, but only of men on the moon. Worth a look.

Real space travel, astronomy and astrophysics are all interests of mine (when I can grasp the astrophysics bit), similarly science fiction can be great literature and great cinema.

Conspiracy theories/theorists and saying whatever it takes to earn either a few quid or a fortune I don't have time for, particularly when they prey on the easily led, which makes them dangerous in my opinion.

Good post.

Thats more evidence than there is for God or jesus.

That much is true...Apollo 8 went behind the moon on Christmas eve (first time humans behind a celestial body) and when they emerged, commander Frank Borman read a passage from the Bible and also said they had seen Santa Claus...Like they do on the news sometimes, you know when they say they've seen Santa Claus on the radar on Christmas day (in North America anyway) It was a nice moment...but nothing to do with UFOs :-P

Louis

Your point being?

Billions of people believe in something that has absolutley no historical ,scientific or eyewitness evidence. So based on that criteria UFO witnesses are just as credible.

Yep, read it. I enjoyed the part when the author expressed his anxiety about interviewing Gene Cernan, hoping he wouldn't be subject to Cernan's familiar 'after-dinner', 'flowery' descriptions of 17. Sure enough within seconds of asking Gene about his experience the author is treated to exactly that.

Only it dawns on Smith that no matter how corny or hackneyed it may sound to familiar ears, Gene Cernan is nevertheless the only one out of just 12 people on Earth who has made a concerted attempt to communicate the human feelings involved in walking upon another world to the public. That's a hell of a task.

Glad you brought it up, i'll have to dig it out if I still have it.

I agree.

I think Oldschool's beginning to see the light, chaps! We nearly have him in our clutches!!

:cool:

Oh your a freethinker too.

Interesting topic:) Think it's very entertaining to look at all the weird youtube videos. But this is just some of the most believable I've seen, especially when it comes from such a person of such caliber.
But still a little hard and believe in :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBhM...eature=related

People should hear what is being said rather than just listening to who is saying it.

In that video Cooper describes seeing extra terrestrial craft while flying in Europe during the war. Assuming these things are physical real (which, given the description of them making impossible manoeuvres it seems unlikely) then how on Earth does he know they are extra terrestrial in origin? Answer: he doesn't. He hasn't a clue what he saw....but a lot of people really want it to have been extra terrestrials; including, it seems, Cooper.

Note also his account of the saucer photograph. A couple of guys under his supervision claim to have taken a picture of a flying saucer that helpfully landed in front of them and then flew off again. Cooper then, after establishing the proper procedure for these things, instructs the cameramen to send the negatives off to God knows where. End of story. Call Spielberg!

[QUOTE=Lixma;322278]People should hear what is being said rather than just listening to who is saying it.

![/QUOTE

Ok now follow me closly so you dont get confused....ok here goes...he was a fighter pilot who is a trained observer. He know what type of craft humans fly and what there capabilities are. When you see something that has no wings or signs of propulsion and can fly circles around anything you have then its a pretty good chance its not of this planet. Typically airforce pilots are flying the most advanced crafts humans can make.

Very true.

What makes you state that Cooper wanted what he saw to be of extra-terrestrial origin? You're reaching here I feel.
I think it's a perfectly valid assumption considering the performance of these aircraft relative to his own, which were supposedly cutting edge for the time.
What was he supposed to think?

Unfortunately it's a common trend to immediately set about discrediting witnesses of UFO events. Yes, pilots and astronauts are ultimately just human beings like the rest of us, but at the same time they I feel are a lot less likely to blurt out 'I saw a UFO' than Joe Soap, given their relative expertise of identifying aircraft and their reputations as professionals.

The whole UFO phenomenon has become very sensationalist over the years, and I do think it's pertinent to be on the lookout for the exaggerated, sensationalist aspect of the subject and guard against it, but at the same time it's easy to fall into the mindset that everyone has an agenda or that every single sighting or encounter with UFO phenomena does not merit scrutiny.

Oldschool, this reply to Rattlehead will serve ably, I think, as a reply to you.

I took it from the fact that in the video he called these unknown objects extra terrestrial before he'd even described their characteristics.

Although it is funny. You've just watched a man claim he saw alien spaceships and you think i'm reaching! :-P

The 'assumption' (actually a conclusion) could not be less valid if it tried. It's a text-book case of the argument from ignorance: "I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be from outer space.".

Let's couch that in different terms to better see the error.

"I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be from another dimension."

"I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be demonic apparitions."

"I don't know what these things are, I don't understand how these things can do what they do - therefore I think they must be witches in flight."

There is no evidence at all that whatever Cooper saw is in any way extra terrestrial. None. Weird, yes. Worthy of further investigation? Sure. But to arrive at the conclusion of ETs is just a leap in the dark.

Don't mistake using sceptical tools as 'discrediting'. Examining logically a person's testimony is not the same as discrediting the source.

It's not the announcement of seeing UFOs that's the problem. It's their completely un-supported identification as ETs, angels, demons or fairies that causes trouble.

Couldn't agree more.

I've seen a UFO. An unspectacular but utterly baffling 10 seconds of my life. I'm not sceptical of UFOs. I'm sceptical of the claims about UFOs.

Just a quick follow up. The Wiki page on Foo Fighters has an interesting reference at the bottom. It's mentions a study by the United States Navy Bureau of Medicine called Project X-148-AV-4-3.

The head of the study, Dr. Edgar Vinacke leaves us this interesting quote...

(my emphasis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter

Am I suggesting that vertigo is therefore the cause of all these sightings? No. And to even suggest the possibility that Gordo Cooper of all people may have suffered from vertigo is no doubt considered by some to be a slight upon his name.

Nevertheless, it demonstrates that pilots (trained observers or otherwise) are every bit as susceptible to disorientation as the rest of us mortals. And given our knowledge of these effects it really should temper our desire to cry ET when other, more mundane (and much more serious) factors are at play.