Fanboys can't really judge a product, while whiners do it harshly: you know that without critics a product can't improve (damn... there were tools enjoying the sound engine!).

It's not whiners' fault if the the sales are not improving: it's the develpers' fault. Luckly Ubi is not really vocal about this game... at least they are honest; can you really deceive the customers selling them an unfinished application? I can't...

I repeat again: almost all the guys in my squad bought the game the day it was released in Europe. We had faith and defended it, we have talked about it to our friends because we believed Luthier's words (far more than Oleg's ones)... anyway in the last months we ALL lost our patience (even Insuber who was the most loyal... still I can't understand how he can "fly" online...)

The whiners can be hushed only by telling them the truth! I had no problem to support the team with my money once or twice. But I need to be assured by the developer that they are working in the right way...

Sadly nothing seems to right this way... starting the development of a new theatre is not that I would to hear until the engine core is ok. Blaming an anti-eplilessy filter for the bad performance was not the right way. Nor is the lack of communication/news.

Well... I gave my support but I can't really defend this game like I did before.

Everybody who takes their time posting in this thread is clearly a fanboy. Here's my summary so far of CloD:

-Game was released unfinished (twice).
+Game has huge potential.

-Game is poorly coded (this is obvious).
+Game is getting patched, albeit a bit slower than hoped for.

-Developer doesn't interact openly and often enough.
+Luthier has given us a "roadmap" for the future of the game.

-Non existant marketing for release (except for in Russia)
+The game has actually been released!

-I'm not playing the game anymore.
+I will play it again as soon as it's up to par (this is subjective of course).

-I will never buy another 1c/MG product again if they don't fix CloD.
+I will continue to buy 1c/MG products if they fix CloD.

I see both sides of the coin and I vote with my €.;)

Well, well.

here you got a story of a 1C:customer.


I heard the superlatives as 1C was feeding its potential customers. I listened to them. When it was out, I bought it first day.

I went through setting up and found out my plain TIR3 was not supported. I ordered TIR5 from US. A first warning bell went off in my head.

I continued with setting up and on my fairly average rig (Phenom X4 3,2Ghz, 4Gigs RAM, 260OC) I got unplayable game. I was forced to play it in 800x600 window in order to keep framerates high enough. I was shocked by "quality" of sounds. I was horrified of lack of AA/AF. I was terrified by landscape ugliness on low settings. I was shred to tears having 5fps over London, 800x600x32 no AA and no AF.

Then I went to do some proper flying, in the countryside, where fps was somewhat OK. I am a sport pilot IRL and a history buff, so I know what do in WWII airplanes. Equipped with a copy of pilot's notes of Hurricane Mk.I, I spawned myself with a Hurricane, keen on trying the advertised superb clickable cockpit. Yes, I went through the switches and levers. But I was not able to fire that crate up. Not because of bad settings of mixture or whatever. I did not find the coil boost and starter buttons. I tried for 15-20mins blaming my sillyness and after that asked my mate what I am doing wrong. The answer presented with a hearthy laughter was I had to hit I for an engine to start. A second, very loud WTF warning bell started to swing in my dumbfounded head.

After that I was able to fly, wondering how easy it was (full realistic, of course), my approaches and landings were on spot. Sure. I would never accomplish anything like that in real deal. This time, no bell went off, I just accepted that is due to other player's experience issue, yes, I have very high demands on FM and not all simmers are real pilots. Mmmkay then.

Then, another mate asked on forums how to deal with his problems flying the Blenheim. He was somehow able to take off, but afer few minutes, engines went dead. I plunged into that problem, equipped with yet another pilot's notes copy. What I found was, the link between analog controller and the in-cockpit lever was reversed. That means, while the GUI lever was in full rich, the cockpit lever was in full lean, thus reversing the control input. We have been flying on full lean all the time. After that, I found out the ground handling of Blenheim in that test mission was utterly unrealistic from what I know of real flying, as it exhibited a massive tendency to swing to the side both in three and two wheel attitude, which I was only able to counter with setting less power on one engine as controls seemed to be innefective. Later I found out there was a default heavy rudder trim set, which was very effective even in slow pace in three point attitude.
Very strange linkage between the real world input and the cockpit lever, coupled with strange FM behavior on takeoff, that was a bell #3 and a last one.

And that was the end of my flying with Blenheim and the end of my flying CloD. I just quit playing it, it was not worth my precious time and effort as these could be spent more reasonably somewhere else
As I got a digital download, there was no DVD to put on back row on my shelf.

Two weeks after, my $130 TrackIR5 arrived. It was put to a very good use in Rise of Flight, shame I do not have enough time to become another Red Baron.

There was a few bucks lost (and no, it is not a cost of a single date here) and some lessons learned.
I paid a price, expecting a reasonably finished product. I got early aplha. So there is no way I ever buy any 1C:Maddox game in the future unless proved playable by people I trust.

How is it called? Loss of customer's trust towards the developer? A marketing failure?
Because as this customer was cheated, was lied to and after several months did not get the product he bought, he just don't care anymore and is very sceptical about the "support your sheriff" stuff. He knows there are many possible sheriffs out there in town. Sure there is one better then the current one, who is hastily covering his mistakes in keeping public safe and happy.


Decide for yourself.

^^

I wont buy any sim on launch date again... Rise of Flight was a disaster initially, purchased it on release day.. after several months struggling with it issues i put it aside of nearly two years.. now it's a gem, started playing again and love it now.

CloD seems to be taking a very similar path.. i suspect in 18 months it will be a lot of fun and hopefully a polished release.

The people i take my hat off to is the DCS team.. i was part of the open beta for A10-c, as a beta i accepted its flaws, there were many, there still are! But being a beta i gave them the slack as i knew what i was getting. Its a great sim now.. but if they had released the beta as the final product it would have been in the same boat as RoF & CloD. They made the right move in my book.

Basically its a sad state of affairs that consumers do not get finished products.. they get betas that need numerous patches... BUT they are still a million times better than Call of Duty and anything like that... we are a niche group, flight simmers, but we have to live off 1/2 finished products... still better than no product.

This is not true... It was not a disaster. Yes, everything else except flying was terrible, but - it was FUN! And all customers knew in which circumstancies they developed it and what is their goal to achieve. ROF now shows the path to the future of flight sims.
You forgeting also a development timeframe... How much time and experience was on the MG side? And what is the result? Acceptable only by fanboy with half of the brain...

The fact that i got feed up and stop playing RoF for 2 years is a testament to my opinion of it. We ran one of the 1st dedicated RoF servers.. it was a complete nightmare.

And if you are calling me a 1/2 brained fanboy, well either you have completely misunderstood my comments and or you are a no brained whiner! :P

I'm not happy with it, hence why it has put me off buying sims on release, as i want proof they work 1st. It has also put me off buying Red Orchestra 2 as it is also under 1c production.

Please say that ain't true tommy, ro2 is under 1c production?

Afraid so.. http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/forumdisplay.php?f=156

Yes, it's a threat they'll do their best to fix the game, if they succeed some people will have less things to complain about and will actually have to start flying for a change. Can you imagine that, they might even start having fun! Oh the horror! :-P


Community member : "Say something!"

Luthier: "Ok, here's a few words. Things are on the same pace as before and results are not ready yet so i can't post anything tangible, just telling you all that we just keep working on it. We are financially secure and hiring more people to speed things up, which should also tell you we're committed for the long haul, otherwise we would just buy a dacha in the outskirts of Moscow and retire instead of spending your money on more programmers."

Community member: "I don't like your words because there's nothing tangible, i didn't just want some words i wanted to hear very specific things and now i'm a sad bunny, even though i initially said i just wanted a bit of reassurance and never mentioned the conditionals lurking in the back of my mind."

You seem to not enjoy the sim, you don't enjoy the forums, you don't enjoy the content of the developer feedback and you don't want being replied to. What exactly are you doing here then? Take a break and do something else ;)




For the umpteenth time, we're not referring to the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" speculation. The game is what the game is, there is a way to get better performance and it costs some eye candy.

The fixation some people display on eye candy is preventing them from getting acceptable performance, which in turn is preventing them from playing the game and that in turn is preventing them from seeing what does work in the game.

And the stuff that works is downright brilliant in the way it's structured even though if might not be 100% correct yet: i'd rather have an engine that can simulate flutter effects and improved CEM while putting a thousand aircraft on the air at the cost of initially inaccurate FMs that will be tweaked over time and slideshow FPS when that many aircraft are present, than have an engine that only runs well because it's strictly and severely limited to getting acceptable performance at the cost of everything else.

Your mileage may vary and you're free to disagree, but we don't all share your opinion and priorities so your views will be challenged and not taken for granted. It's the essence of discussion, you are free to either deal with it or move on and no hard feelings will be had either way.

In short, 99% of the complaints are about graphics/sounds before shelving the sim, yet the majority of the people who complain the most have almost no idea about every other feature in the sim. They wouldn't be asking the same things over and over again, things that have been answered multiple times since April, if they had actually taken the time to explore a bit on their own. Perfect example of e-laziness if you ask me.


All this is comedy gold :grin:





What are you talking about? 9 out of 10 people here are so fixated on the way the forest green/tracer/waves or other comparatively trivial issues (in terms of effort to fix, compared to the underlying game engine) look that the game mechanics pass over their heads with a loud "whooshing" sound :-P

I fully agree with your post, but for a bunch of so called simulation fans here the thing that matters most is that the slovakia map in IL2:1946 at max detail looks better than COD's map at low detail, the amount of calculations required for the new CEM alone be damned :grin:


This is a low blow technique and i don't like comparing "hardcore-ness" for lack of a better word, but seriously, the way things have been going lately i'm getting the feeling that for a lot of people here their interest in aviation lies mainly in looking at and listening to pretty aircraft making big explosions and they are completely averse to learning a bit more about what makes the whole machine tick in the first place. Otherwise they would have found out the extend to which things like that are modeled in the sim but no, the greens are too vivid so i'll throw my helmet and goggles out the pram, cross my hands over my chest and try to convince everyone else that they are as miserable and not having fun as i am :-P


As hard as it is for you to understand that i'm running it fine on a two year old PC with only 3GB of RAM, it looks good and flies smooth and i didn't even have to spent money on a new PC, so don't try and make it look like you represent everyone in the community because it works well for many of us :-P





Dude, give it a rest. You were a raging RoF supporter before it was released, then they did something that you didn't like and started dissing it in a way similar to the one you display here, now that it's fixed you love it again and use it as a comparison to diss CoD. Through all this and despite all your self-professed experience in beta testing and HW/SW tweaking, you didn't manage to learn the single most important thing that RoF could teach you: that a game with a severely limited engine and a business model that's not exactly suited to flight sims can still survive a rough start and succeed despite it's small audience, as long as the fans support it, the developers keep working on it and we all give it some time.

You're just bending in the wind like a tree branch and venting out loud until you get what you want, that's all. Don't make me go to simHQ and dig up the relevant quotes from way back in May-June 2009.

For a guy with so much PC experience you display an enormous lack of judgement. Otherwise you wouldn't have bought a game that everyone (including yourself) knew is full of bugs just to shatter your nerves. Unless you enjoy it in which case i'm not the one to judge. I don't discriminate against masochists as long as they keep their whips (and their self-inflicted anguish over a video game) to themselves, just don't try to tell me i should share your opinion because i flat out don't.

You're free to have your opinion and i'm free to have a different one, trying to make it look like you guys are representing the entire community will only make the ones you don't represent react even more against you. Your group are just the front page of the forum, there are other people spending time with the sim , getting to know the available tools and making useful contributions in the sub-forums that are a whole different group altogether.

And you depend on them to improve your gameplay experience ;)



Good post this one. There's a dozen things i'd like to see changed or improved that i consider much more important than antialiasing or SLI, but i didn't go about making a mess of the AA and SLI threads suggesting that my preferred fixes take place first.

It's this attitude of "i want this fixed, i want to know everything along the way and i want it to be first in line" displayed by some that's been getting to me lately.

I have a long list of fixes that are much easier to do for the devs as well, maybe i should start derailing every thread i see about sound and graphics to get my own way like some do, the spoiled brat way :rolleyes:



That's a reasonable post as well. People have choices:

1) Buy at launch on a leap of faith and deal with the teething problems. Either enjoy it, bug report it or shut up about it and do something else for a while so the rest can do the bug hunting and community improvements in peace.

2) Wait for reviews, word of mouth and official ones. Make an informed decision and save yourself some trouble.

3) Buy at launch despite being short-tempered, don't enjoy it, complain repetitively in a way that's not useful to the developers and annoying to other players and make a fool of oneself.



Long story short, the broken record approach has been so overdone that everyone is desensitized and antagonistic to it by this point: the developers ignore it and the rest of the community openly confronts it out of sheer boredom caused by its repetitiveness.

I harbor no ill-will against any of you and i don't care to engage in personal attacks, but i think i'll start challenging you lot a bit more frequently from now on because i'm bored of your shenanigans and your tendency to drown out every meaningful bit of discussion by side-tracking every single thread to your personal pet peeves with the sim.

No hard feelings, just my opinion and i'm entitled to have one just like anybody else. Some of you guys just bore me to tears and disrupt the flow of discussions i like, so i'll see if i can do something to change it. That's all, nothing personal, i'm just out to preserve my personal fun factor as a member of the community whom your over-generalizations don't represent. Have a nice day ;)

No offense Blackdog, but can you sum up as i have to go to work tomorrow... :)

Here comes "driveby"....:-P

Fair enough. Good example of an opinion.
No troll raging.
No "I hate you Oleg!".

This is his experience. Read the satisfied posts and make your mind up and go ahead and decide.

You probably won`t buy any expansion 1C puts up in the future too. That`s the main punishment right there.

Moaners don`t criticize the product. They intend on killing it before it has a chance to blossom.

Funny. I`ve seen a good number of AAA titles that deceived their customers too. Hardly any game today comes out finished.

Really? How in the heaven`s did you manage to stay with IL2 then?
Oh wait, you prolly bought it in 2005.

The whiners won`t shut up. We`ve had a number of their "ultimatums" fulfilled by 1C, yet, they keep on barking.

Sorry to hear this. If you describe numerous updates long over the industry`s average and three patches, freebies and incoming releases of another such content "nothing" then I rest my case.

They could have marketed COD in this manner?

"COD an investment for the future"

They didn't.

Instead?

"Here now, ready to rock and roll"

No music.

The fix?
Communication and patching from the "devs",
not from anybody else.
Credibility must be restored.

Nobody here wants 1C or COD to fail.
Fail it will, without the "fix".

I had Clod on pre-order, knowing full well what was in store, judging by the howls of dismay here when the game was released. Call me a masochist if you want. :-P
The way I see it, the sim market needs the support and influx of cash on launch day/week. Given the choice, I would do the same again.

That doesn't make me right or somehow more of a fan, don't get me wrong, but I figure things will be fixed in time (in all sims) and in the meantime I can have a bit of fun with the game too.

Who is responsible for marketting?

Who is responsible for communication?

So the game won't be fixed if they (developers) fix it but don't communicate? :confused: I would rather they just fix it - which is what I think they are doing. I mean, that's what they have 'communicated' to us, after all. I see no reason to doubt that.

Well.....

The solution is simple....

It's the excuses that are complex....

Respectfully intended of course. :cool:

They did not have this choice because of contract with UBI including NDA. And still have a contract and can not tell the full story.

That's why luthier and the team are working but not talking. I do not think you want the opposite.

How UBI spends their communication budget is a different question.

It seems folks not in the know have been making excuses/guesses about the reasons behind the lack of communication. Like many others...I just wanted what I paid for...or a reasonable explanation from the source. Common sense would suggest that with the premature release to North America, more dissident voices would be heard. They have been and somewhere will be.

Most of us have purchased this "sim"...we have not received what we were "sold"...What we don't understand? The lack of information from Luthier.
Yes, because we bought the "sim", we do deserve an accurate concise answer from him or his designee.

I am from the U.S. and I bought this "sim" on 4-16-2011. I paid full retail. If that doesn't show support? I don't what does.

Thanks for your reply Ataros...

Note to Nearmiss: I understand what you must do to contain this forum. I just don't understand...Why Luthier won't give give you a hand.

But who does decide if the poster is a moaner or not? If moaners are the ones who constantly spit their venom on the game again and again by single sentences then I can agree: but saying that the landscape's colors are bad, the sound engine is horrible and so on does not make a poster a whiner. It's stating facts: then everybody is entitle to their opinion but there's still a limit to one person's intelligence.

Ok let's ban the whiners but please ban also the unbelievable fanboys ("I like the sounds!" "The flames are perfect" ect... I can't stand them: at least Tree makes me smile)
Better than the ban there is the Ignore List; people should learn to use it and not the Report function that should be used only in extreme episodes. Guys who constanly report other poster should be the first to be banned.

Not like this one: in my experience with VGs (and it's very high... actually I have 114 games in my Steam account... and I can't count the ones without Steam support) I've never seen a game in this state: it's because of this that in the past I stated that CloD does not need fixes... it needs a good design. The typical bug to be fixed is the famous crash we have on many games, the memory leak ect... here we have optimization and important parts of the game that are not working at all. I'm not talking about the weather module or the sea: I mean the phantom trees... The collisions should be well managed in a released version. Then the UIs ect.

Forgotten Battles. I tested the first IL2 (the demo) but I had no peripheral devices.

The board was not in this state a month ago. Am I the only one who see many more posters losing their patience? It's never been like now or probably we had the same thing against the guiltless Ubi when Ilya blamed the fake anti-epilessy filter (still I can't swallow it): so why now? Maybe it's because there are no news and the dev team seems to not look at this board when there are many patience people who would give them an hand (look at the Insuber's thread).

You are free to rest your case: the 3 patches are needed because the game was/is unfinished, the freebies (you mean the E1?) are only premade contents (the E1 is a E4 with MG... not really a different model... a junior developer can add material in this way, probably their code differs in only one line. If one day we will get the Su26 this will not be a freebie, nor will be boats and tanks.. the released game should have them from the start looking at the updates we had in these years) and the incoming releases will not be gratis.

Look I'm not really a person who like to eat a lot of food but I like to eat good food. Few planes are enough for me... few but well made (it's still a simulator). I don't want return to the days that the freebies from 1C were full of problems since they don't look at them (Oleg's requested quality was not so high.. look at the first flyable Ju88 without armor... ).

Let me pay for every new package (as we did with IL2...) and release that damned SDK so people can improve this game. But first of all build a complete working engine. I don't care to have 10 expensive cars if there is not street around me.

I have to say but Luthier's post is almost borderline offensive in how out of touch it is. As others pointed out, saying that you are working on a expansion/next in the series when the current one is still in a beta state, while making an excuse (small team) for its state its pretty frustrating. Maybe they need to re-sort their priorities, hell at this point they should give the people here who spent $ on the game and have been playing a payed beta the expansion for FREE. What a mess (told you so, because I just have to rub it in :rolleyes:).

But I wont spend another cent on anything from them until COD is performing at the level it should, and has the amount of quality content that at minimum a game should have at release (hell this release is worse than most if not all betas I have been in!).

What I think is sad is that things have gotten to this point that it's really hard for anyone new to see any reason to pursue or follow this new series. If new people do pick it up, its even harder to find anyone willing to help sort out some problems for fear of being branded a fanboy or being personally attacked.

The true supporters have already made their points, several times over and they have a right to be a little miffed. Some of it was constructive for a while, but I have seen almost nothing but developer bashing over the last few weeks which is not at all constructive.

The game will be fixed in time though, just like the original series, as has been explained several time now. If you don't like it, put it on the shelf for a while and go have a beer with your mates like i did.
If you really feel that bad about it, sure ask for your money back. BUT dont continually whine and complain about the same things over and over. WE GET IT. Some of you aren't happy and you just have to let the whole world know it, continuously. Guess what, its not all about you!

Just to put this into perspective though, this is a GAME, its not about a life saving miracle cure for cancer or world hunger.

12Million people are on the verge of starvation in Somalia alone as the UN has just declared another massive famine in Africa and some of you are behaving like you are the ones in a famine. Get over it. If you really are the passionate series supporters you say you are, then help to create an environment where people actually want to come for support to help get the game running well.

We all know what doesnt quite work right by now, but the game does work well enough for most now with the exception of the sound bug in MP. Almost all peoples problems can be solved if people weren't so pig headed and trying to run everything on high or above their system capability. Just drop a few settings down! If you can't get it running well enough, i feel sorry for you, but im sick of the negativity around here and hope the mods keep up the vigilance on the banning and moderation until this place is back to normal.

Im not surprised the devs backed away a little from the volatility of the forums over the past few weeks, but im also a little disappointed we didnt get some updates at least fortnightly. Being in the technology business and being exposed to business application development my self, I know not a lot can really change that much in a week any way. Fortnightly updates would probably be more realistic, with a major update with each patch.

I look forward to the long road ahead with this exceptional game and will remain a supporter as I love both the original series and the vision of the developers for this new platform and Im prepared to give them a bit of lee way for such a massive leap in realism.

good post FS


I think the people are getting so upset is because this release really is bad compared to il-2 original's release.

And because of the expectancy and promise of a delivery, makes alot of people get angry.

And the devs of Il-2 know how to make greatness and awesomeness but suddenly are staring in the face of fail.

People think its unnatural for the guys n gals who made Il-2 to fail at Clod. Like next morning, the sun shines but its not the usual color its a black light sun or something.

And that betrayal is whats bringing out this.



Hey Luthier!!


Good Job! You get a pat on the back!


*catches a few tomatoes for marinara before ducking the rest and jetting in the jet* W00t the good stuff, rotten tomatoes are for movies anyways

sales improvement comes from quality. even simpler.

if it has quality it will sell itself, if it hasn't, it won't, no matter how hard it's advertised; anything else is bollocks. you can't fool people into buying crap no matter how often you post it's not crap, and reverse is also true. besides, those who look for an external opinion go essentially for professional reviews and avoid this kind of bi-polarized places (fanboys vs whiners). thus i really can't see how posting affects sales.

regarding marketing, it's responsibility of publishers and developers, not of posters.

as for devs they must find encouragement on revenue and personal satisfaction upon their product, as every honest worker does.

my 2 cents

Who's the guy responsible for the greens ? :rolleyes:

To answer Manu's question which is also shared by many, i'll try to give my interpretation of what constitutes negative and non-constructive posting.

I think it's not about the message, but the poster's attitude and the way it's delivered.
There are dozens of people pointing out inaccuracies and faults with the sim and they are not branded "whiners" or doom and gloom merchants, ever wondered why?

It's simple, they stick to a reporting style and not engage in personal attacks and speculation.
This also applies to the other camp, the so called "fanboys".

You see i'm using quote marks because i don't really accept that division. There are no "whiners" or "fanboys", there are only people who are realistic and people who detach themselves from reality on purpose (they are not stupid, they are just disappointed and aggressive to contrary opinions, so their defensive mechanisms kick into gear).

In fact, i think that both "whiners" and "fanboys" are part of this same group. Some are disappointed with the developers and the sim and the rest are disappointed with how the first group is supposedly killing their favorite game, but both groups use the same ineffective methods (half-baked, aggressive arguments and personal vitriol) to push otherwise relevant points.

This doesn't only aggravate the bystanders, it also detracts from their points because it's clear they are too lazy to come up with a coherent argument and prefer repeating one liners ad nauseum or getting into slagging matches among themselves. My question is, how does such a person expect to convince the rest of us if he can't take the time to formulate his opinion in a coherent manner that's at least appealing to read? I mean, if they won't take the time to support their own viewpoint how am i as a 3rd party expected to consider it worthy of attention?

Take the time to proof-read your posts before clicking submit (the preview button is there for a reason), try to edit out some stuff that might be getting personal, emotional or speculative and stick to giving us your experience of it all without snide remarks.

I guarantee you the amount of people who are willing to discuss things with you will rise, even though not all of them will agree. I find it much easier to respect an opinion (no matter if i agree or disagree with it) if it's at least worded in a manner that doesn't give me the mental image of a person frothing at the mouth behind a keyboard, not to mention it's easier to avoid getting dragged into similar behaviours myself ;)

All very well in a perfect world Blackdog, I agree with you, but this is not a perfect world. This is the INTERNET!! :grin:

So good luck with that. (though your right)

You do remind me of the guy from Southpark, "drugs are bad, mmmkk"

he was right too, but still all the kids(forum members) pay no notice.

Blackdog, I don't write often on this forum now, but if I must then I try to do my best translating my thought in a different language (so many mistakes, shame on me!).

I agree that it's the attitude.

Anyway as Furbs writes we are still on the Internet.
You know...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

In every social board there will always be immature guys who writes down "one sentence posts" (with or without bad words) and of course this can only split the community in the "White" and "Black" sides (the ones who stay in the "Grey" are positioned according their actual interlocutor).

In the board we still use an indirect way to communicate and we often have misunderstandings who are the reasons quarrels.

We have quarrels in my squad's board (something like 20 people now) and we're all talking italian.. I can imagine how many more misunderstanding between posters with different mother tongues.

Of course, the language barrier is also a factor ;)
Anyway, i'm glad we're all coming to our senses again.

My one simple suggestion at this point is to go out and play the game, drop some settings if you must as a workaround for known issues but just go ahead and fly.

I avoided flying online because other people had told me of the sound bug and i was busy testing things offline anyway for the most part but guess what, i hadn't actually tried it for any length of time apart from a short test run a couple of patches ago.

Tonight i got on skype with a buddy i recently got back into flight sims (started him out with IL2:1946 and he then purchased CoD too) and we decided to try some multiplayer. I wasn't in the mood to start fiddling with the FMB so we just joined Syndicate to have a ready-made sandbox to fly in.

He had some trouble with his freetrack setup, i had some trouble due to running Skype on top of the sim with my limited 3GB of RAM, we had a couple of cases of spawning on the same places which resulted in our aircraft colliding, but after some experimentation (2-3 tries all in all) and taxiing a few yards away from the spawn point before the second one of us spawned, we got into the air and flew two sorties of about one hour each, maybe more.

The first one we started on 303 Polish squadron's airfield so as to be away from the furball area and have some time to get things running properly and distance to grab some altitude. It was completely hilarious, between fiddling with my compass and directional gyro and keeping tabs on the whereabouts of my less experienced buddy who was all over the sky, we ended up back-tracking twice over a meeting point before we got familiarized with our surroundings and started navigating towards Dover in a loose formation.

We encountered a couple formations of ghost contacts (dots that disappear as you close by), he ended up blowing his governor and at that time i got bounced by a 109. Not sure if he was AI but he might have been, as we descended in a left-hand spiral all the way to the deck with me evading his shots. After a while i tried to suck him into some scissors and force an overshoot, i over-controlled my Huricane and entered a spin. The result was getting a fuel leak and getting wounded. My buddy was safe on the ground by that time in Hawkinge, i landed with 1 gallon of fuel in the main tank due to the fuel leak (remembered to switch to reserve just in time) and he told me on skype to taxi next to him.

I jokingly said something about snapping souvenir photos, he said it was a good idea and i ended up getting screenshots of his nosed over Hurricane from within my cockpit. His engine had just quit a bit before touch-down and that's why his propeller blades were not all broken when he nosed over. In fact, his Hurricane was balanced on one of the prop blades itself!

Next sortie we decided to spawn in Lympne, got our bearings faster, set up a CAP circuit between Folkestone and Dover to protect friendly ships and then we saw a flight of AI Blenheims going across the channel so we decided to escort them, hoping they would draw some attention.

That's when my buddy started having trouble with keeping station again and drifting away. At some point and while dividing my attention between the bombers i was circling over to my low 4 o'clock and him wandering off to my 9 o'clock i hear him say he's being shot at. I tell him to go full power and race to his direction, as i pick up a contact behind him.

He managed to stay alive, i closed the distance and decided to spray and pray a bit to discourage his attacker, so i managed to save the guy (felt like babysitting rookies for real). At that point a Spitfire joined in and scored some hits on the 109 so i thought it best to go back north in order to regroup and grab some more altitude.

Being tail end charlie and focused on guiding my buddy back over the friendly coast (he's terrible with navigation :-P and being unfamiliar with the map makes thing complicated for me too ), the 109 which at that point had either downed or evaded the Spitfire gave me a good rake from possibly point blank rage. My screen went black in an instant and i saw the damage and pilot kill messages on the text window.

In one of the sorties (don't remember which), our airfield also got bombed as we were just starting our take off roll.

Long story short, i had so much fun that after having dinner i got back in, this time solo, picked up a 109 and set up a cap between Folkestone and Dover. Seems like most people fly low for the time being because i was trailing a contrail for an amount of time equal to half a fuel tank at economy settings up at 6-7km, along with the enemy flak bursts marking my position, but nobody was around for me to engage. After a while another 109 attacked me by mistake and damaged my pneumatic container, he told me he was sorry, i told him not to worry and to have fun and i set course for home since i was on half a tank of fuel anyway.


I got into only 3 fights, didn't get a single kill, died one time and had to RTB another one and it still was the best 3 hours of flight simming i've had the past few months. Just the sense of ambiance and sheer scale of the environment, the uncertainty and running for home flat out on a power dive from 7km amid the evening haze was enough for me.


As a side note, before spawning i set forest to very low (i already had it on low anyway), disabled music and voice in the sound options and didn't have any issue at all with the sound cutting out.

Just drop a couple of settings to ensure a stable game and go fly the planes that work, there's a good amount of fun in that while the next patches are baking in the oven, the servers are more stable (at least the one i was in) and i was surprised and pleased to see there were new people flying that don't even know how to start up their engines yet and everyone was helping them out.

Turn off your FPS counter, drop your texture detail a notch or two and give it a go, despite the remaining bugs and problems it still beats arguing with me on the forums ;)

I agree with this post. But am on the side of "pissed off" because when ever I made any constructive criticism/critical comments pre release I got jumped on and nuked. Maybe some of these huge faults could or should of been seen by the development team... Its frustrating especially because the screw up has/is so bad and was avoidable. In any case I think I have earned my right to whine at this point (even though I hardly post anymore).

i never intended to state that CoD is crap, far from that... i just had (and maintain) such high hopes on this one...

I waited 7 months in ROF just to be able to play a MP mission for longer than 10 minutes without a server crash or a master browser crash. I waited 2 years for them to fix an annoying ROF.exe error that would have you crash to desktop when an AI spawned. Now we just happily crash to desktop when a new mission loads. Still not fixed!

IL2COD is 100x the game engine ROF will ever be. The current mission I'm running has well over 200 AI and 15,000 objects in it. Go ahead and put 200 planes in a ROF mission and see if it will even load. Go ahead and put 500 objects in one see how long before it crashes the dedicated server when 40 people are playing.

ROF's potential is used up. Only a complete and utter redesign of their game engine (which they've admitted) will change that. If I wanted to make a bridge from one side of England through the English Channel to the other side of France I simply put it on the map in IL2. That's 100's of miles of bridge. Do you think the IL2 engine has any problem doing something like that? Now how about we add an invasion fleet of 300 tanks that drives over this bridge to invade England. Now how bout we put a few 1000 objects on the airfields to make them look alive. Then lets add several hundred AI bombers to go bomb the crap out of something. Then, heck, lets go ahead and even let players play on it. Guess what will happen? People will see a huge invasion fleet crossing the English Channel and go "lol @ Bliss"

The point in all of this, is the fact that you couldn't stack 50 bridges next to each other in ROF without the server having a seizure, let alone even think about having any amount of AI over the single digit category in a full ROF MP server, (and when I mean full about 46 players is all it will take before the server will crash). ROF is great for what it is. And it's an FPS plane shooter with some very good attention to detail on the planes. You exit the planes and you're left with a barren wasteland of emptyness. No amounts of coaxing through the Mission Editor will ever change that. No huge full scale representation of WWI will ever happen with ROF. There's people that have actually made complex scripts in ROF that will make a flak gun despawn unless there is an enemy plane around. In other words, this is done just to try to keep the game running.

For many people, that's just fine. For me, it's not. I get as much enjoyment from what's actually under the hood of a flight sim as to what's on the surface. And once you've made a few missions with ROF's ME and then go to IL2's FMB, you'll find ROF's editor isn't even in the same league or same planet for that matter as the FMB. There's more static objects to add life to missions like buckets and gas cans in the FMB than every single individual object in all of ROF's ME combined. Not only can I rotate any object I want, I can place then any height, I can cut away sections of the ground, deconstruct the map. I can do virtually anything I want in the FMB.
If I want to make a trench 5 feet deep and have it go across all of England I can.

Considering WWI was a huge ground war, you'd think you might have some ground objects right? Well, think again.

This is what potential is. This is what a real sim engine can do. Do you think I'm worried about a wrong prop pitch lever, a plane that doesn't perform correctly, brakes that don't work, or bad sound? Hell do you even think I'm worried about textures that don't load right? Heck no, because all of that stuff scratch the surface of what's underneath. And what's underneath is beyond amazing.

There's more going on in a JU88 cockpit than every single plane in ROF combined. And don't even get me started on the DM. Last time I checked I could still lawn dart a spad into the ground at 200mph and the plane looks like it could actually be fixed. You can't even damage a cockpit in ROF. It takes 4 bullets, yes 4 bullets to kill a pilot in ROF. It doesn't matter if you hit him point blank in the head from a stationary gunner - 4 bullets every time. You know what it takes in 10 year old IL2 and new IL2? 1 bullet to the head. ROF just only recently introduced an effect to make it look like your plane was leaking fuel or smoking. Old IL2 has had stuff like this forever. The FM is ROF is very nice. It does feel like you are actually flying, even though there are several planes that have needed a FM revision for over 2 years now.

So next time you even think about whining in here. Take it from someone who has one of the longest lasting dedicated servers on ROF and from someone who went through all the growing pains in that sim. Comparing the 2 is very laughable. One is an all around war sim. The other is, quite simply, an FPS plane sim featuring WWI planes.

And what I've talked about just breaks the surface of what's under the hood of IL2COD. I'm not even getting into the never ending moving front line dynamic online campaigns, or how you can virtually script up ANYTHING you want to have happen in a mission. And all this stuff works now, even in it's buggy unfinished state.

People have a very valid reason to complain for lots of bugs and problems. But I've been waiting for this for a very long time now, all because of what I wrote above. There's vehicle controls in options sections for a reason. This is going to be the ultimate all around on the ground and in the air sim in the future. No other sim will come close. No other sim can even do 1/2 of what this game engine can currently. Worried? Whining? Hell no. Enthusiastically waiting for the future and another patch.

But hey, maybe you can go back over to the ROF forums and tell them they should at least be able to model the different machine guns on their planes. Aren't there only like 3 or 4 guns total in WWI fighters? Yet they all have the same rate of fire and same ammo? Let me guess, maybe after 4 years after release they'll fix that as well? Nah, probably not. They have to work on making compasses or fuel gauges to sell.

Now even after all that you'd think I hate the game. Well I own every single plane and field mod. It is the most expensive sim I've ever played. But don't go and try to compare the 2 here. It's laughable. ROF plays much smoother than IL2COD, but I'd wager a guess that will soon change.

Good post Bliss. I hope your right about COD too. i really really do.

Just because I do not want to start next flamewar about who is better - I agree that clickable cockpit is very complex in COD, but it is not all about existing, missing, bugged features only. What I am trying to say all the time is the balance - balance between simulation and game. The formula is very easy:

Fun = simulation x game

simulation is everything around - cockpit, weather, land, wind, FM, DM, radio etc.
game is = UI, MP, campaign, career, squadrons etc.

What I am saying is that the way of the perfect simulation and very bad game above it, is wrong business strategy. You can tak away dynamic weather(as we can know from meteo statistics, what was the weather each day of BOB) and give there better UI.

So this is my point. It must be fun. this is the goal. People want to play - they do not want to fly with the totally simulated Hurri or Bf109... They want to fly like Clostermann, Hartman and others. Like these guys. And this is that crucial difference between ROF and CLOD now. But I am not saying ROF is better or not - for me personally it is, but who cares about my opinions - I am saying that the future WW2 sim should be focused primary on "fun" as I described. It is not easy, of course - that's what makes a game a legend. Now CLOD can be repaired, but content will just make it some kind of air Quake as previous IL2 series. Let's include there such nice offline campaign at least as beta campaign in ROF now. Everyone will be happy, whiner will shut up.

Look, I dont know what happened during BOBSOW, CLOD development. Why Oleg left. His 2001 IL2 was a revolution. But not CLOD. I am just thinking that maybe someone ordered them to give that initial code to WOP and they started again from scratch. But they had no time and money left to move it to such level like you can visually see in WOP. I am just wondering what happened there.

To be honest, i dont think we will ever really know whats happened with COD.
Not unless you get Oleg, Luthier and maybe a few others round a table with a few bottles of vodka. :)

if only we can have some info.... since the last patch we don"t know what they work on.... no news about an estimate date for patch....

really they miss a lot of communication. sincerely the last news with the team is really stupid.

we want info no a familly album....

well hope luthier and co will learn to communicate better!

What Bliss said, we will see where CLOD will be in a 2 years....Then we will JUDGE

all I said up till now is my CURRENT experience with the game and my OWN "feelings"...

Funny that some still believe that in the end everything will be fine with CoD.

In my opinion the patches released until now, are just tinkering.

What will be in 2 years? No one is interested in two years anymore.

As long as there is no complete investigation with the community, the trust is lost.

Yeah.. It's pretty funny that 10+ years of patching, expanding, and fixing the old IL2 would possibly make you believe they might just do that with the new one.

Funny indeed.

You're right, I forgot that after the release of IL2 it has the same amount of bugs in it. :roll:

IL2 was not nearly as immature as CoD after the release.

But, believe whatever you want!

Really, so you're saying it's unfinished? Good call Sherlock!

As far as believing, the company already has a track record of fixing and expanding their software. And thus far, since this game has been released, it's had almost a patch every month. Seems like they are on the same track to me.

So yeah, I'll believe what I want based on past and present support. But thanks for the truly insightful post.

nice fairy tale bliss.
i mean you are right when its about the FMB.
at least i think so, because i still have major problems with it.im not even able to spawn planes on different times anymore.it was really easy with 1946 but now i have no glue how to do.
but i agree that there is huge potential in that machine.
now the big question is what will be done with that potential?
we know that it should be possible to have actual groundwar with human players theoretically one day.yes the controls are already here to steer vehicels.well that would be a hell of a breakthrough.
but i somehow doubt we will see that with that game.
but i really hope i am wrong.man i really do...

Speculation on: They are working flat out on Battle of Moscow add on.When that is released bugs fixed, improvements in weather,sounds, landscape etc, will also apply to CoD.
We will probably have to pay for it though! /Speculation off

The average bloke in the street is bothered about gameplay and having fun, not what the games engine is.
Having such a marvelous wonderful game engine that you can do so much with is all rather pointless if the product that uses it aint much cop.

Here's hoping the sim turns out to be everything SYN Bliss expects though.

Gameplay and having fun are directly related to the game engine. Just imagine only being able to have a total of 45 planes on a map or theater of war that had an massive invasion force in the air? (WWII BOB) Being able to recreate some history and fly in it is what makes it fun, at least to me. I like immersion.

But if your cup of tea is flying around over empty trenches in a 1vs1, that's fine with me.

David,

You can already drive a vehicle in the old game (IL2 46+UP3.0) I think it's some sort of jeep if I remember right. I honestly don't think that part will be hard for them at all. But there will be plenty of model work needed for the pits, etc.

I cant wait to jump out of my 109 into a waiting kublewagen race off to a storch or arado 196 that already has it's engine primed and take off to pick up my wingman that is hiding in some bushes or clinging to his life raft after being forced to bail out :D.

Nice dream bliss I want this so badly but I will stick for a improved Cod atm :D

BTW speaking of original IL-2 I enjoyed it in 800x600 res setting color depth to 16 bit only to get my 30-35 fps. It was a great time!

I remember luthier posting on sukhoi.ru that about 1 year before release (my guess is it's when UBI pressed for timing) they had an option either to cut features and concentrate on bug fixing polishing the limited release OR to continue expanding engine possibilities. It was very tempting to reduce the workload but they took the challenge.

Some people will never get it.

Originally Posted by Davy TASB:
The average bloke in the street is bothered about gameplay and having fun, not what the games engine is.
Having such a marvelous wonderful game engine that you can do so much with is all rather pointless if the product that uses it aint much cop.

Here's hoping the sim turns out to be everything SYN Bliss expects though.

Why you totally ignore Davy´s reasonable point? Besides, empty trenches &
1vs1 is closer to reality with CLOD than the fantasy vision you presented. Of course it would be nice if that fantasy could be realized one day.

Fantasies & excuses seem to be endless here.

Clearly reading isn't your strong point. Again, gameplay (aka what you can do with what you are playing with) is all determined by the game engine that gameplay is built around.

Offline and online I never drop below 45FPS with virtually every setting maxed inIL2COD. The game is very enjoyable to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has gotten the game to run reasonably well.

I don't really see any excuses or fantasies there. The only fantasy I mentioned whatsoever was the vehicle bits. Everything else I said about the game engine, FMB, or it's limits, are already capable currently.

But thanks for letting me know how much fun I'm having while playing it.

feel the love once again...

really!?
i didnt know that!although i had UP3.interesting.

Big pimpin...

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/2869/truckb.jpg

:rolleyes:

Being snotty and snide is certainly yours though.

But the vehicles have the "flight"model from the Airacobra! Interesting is the right description, i believe.

1. Money to continue develpment and expansions comes from where?
2. How many people will buy an expansion or put more $ down on the game when there first experience is a total screw up?
3. How many fans and followers will have moved on in their life by the time we see that type of progress? Probably a good portion will be doing other things, but the game will still be stuck with the horrible reputation it has built.

1.) It depends. Initial funding for a project usually has nothing to do with the customer. Getting that money back does though.

2.) Judging by the amount of years the community has with the original IL2 (many 10+ years and growing), I'd say if you are flight simmer especially a WWII simmer, most of the people will know what to expect from a finished Maddox flight sim. I don't think getting support for it will be any problem at all. You're also the one calling it a screw up. I'm calling it what it is. Unfinished. The original IL2 is a WIP that keeps evolving. This new one is the same exact way. In 3 months we've had a few fairly decent patches that now make the game playable for most. They are working on a completely new sound engine and constantly improving performance and bugs. I can't really ask for more than that at this point. But I also bought it knowing full well what it will turn out for in the future, not for what it is out of the box. I'm fine with being a beta tester.

3.)It will take quite a long time to tarnish the IL2 series name. Their reputation as having one of the longest lasting, most popular flight sims of all time, is still there.