taka taka taka taka taka ...

you're dead.

Serves you right for studying those streaks instead of your tail.
This has to be the umpteenth thread on this over-taxed subject. It isn't likely to change. Check the other threads.

Ahh, Ok thankyou for enlightening me on that. could still argue it should be present in game.

Yes I agree, but the warbird itself is certainly not firmly fixed and would vibrate quite a lot (even the airframe itself can and will flex) especially when firing heavier calibre cannons and such. Like I say is very apparent in not just a few but every single piece of gun camera footage you can find. The rounds should spread more. ATM they don't seem to spread at all, or just barely. I guess this could be a flight model issue though as opposed to a bullet model. Maybe the plane just needs to shake more...

No, really? I'm not getting that, could you explain it again? no need to be patronising SYN_Bliss. Even you must admit that they are too long though.


All rounds arc in reality its due to gravity and friction. As the friction with air slows the round down, gravity changes its trajectory more and more. No fired round ever followed a straight line. ever. period. Across a distance of more than a few hundred yards, this would be apparent, particularly looking down the direction of travel, unless you have a very high muzzle velocity then it would take a greater distance, but still.

I'm getting personal because no matter what I show or tell you, you still don't listen.

Take a light source, say a laser pen light with a room full of smoke and point it towards something 5 ft away in a fixed position, so you can see the beam of light. Now have this light pattern repeat very rapidly. As this light source is switched on and off it will not matter one IOTA where you are standing or viewing the light. It will always be in a straight line UNLESS, you got hit by a freight train or decided to pull a few G's out of your butt while standing still. Your eye's WILL ALWAYS SEE THIS LINE AS STRAIGHT.

That is simple physics. You may see the line shorter or at a different angle depending on your viewing angle but viewing the trajectory of said moving object that produces the light trajectory will always be viewed in the in the same direction and trajectory that said object is traveling. (UNLESS as stated above)

If you can't understand that, then you need to take a remedial science class. Or you could quite simply fire and observe 1000's of rounds of tracer ammunition from fixed and high speed moving positions.

You'd be surprised at how little shake a .303 round would have on an being fired from a heavy warbird let alone just hip firing that same machine gun.



Actually, in same cases, they may be too short, but I think what they have now is good middle ground.




Now this is patronizing, but has nothing to do with the discussion. The only point of the arc we care about is the miniscule amount that you'll actually see while a tracer is moving (which funny enough, you can't even see!). If you only see a 5ft section of movement till it disappears from leaving the weapon to out of visual range,.,... that 5ft section (streak of light) following the round will always appear perfectly straight because in the short time frame of the tracer you see (5ft) the trajectory drop is so insignificant it's not even worth mentioning.

This is true. If viewed long enough, it would be apparent that the trajectory of the bullet is curved (due to gravity).

However, the tracers in this game burn out mostly between 300 - 500 yards. During this initial distance, the tracers should appear roughly in a straight line. Even a .303 round (small fry in this sim) has sufficient energy to maintain a relatively flat flight path over the comparatively small distances they were used in by the RAF.

I think there is a tracer round that burns up to 800 yards, but I haven't tried it in game.

Anyway, it's a trifling point. The tracers in game do their job. I'm not too bothered if there are any inaccuracies. I'd much prefer them to fix the sound issues etc! ;)

that, with respect, is just plain wrong... the MKI Eyeball has no shutter and sees in fluid capture.

you run a CRT monitor refreshrate at (min) 60 Hz and FPS (similar to a shutter but in reverse, to avoid getting eyestrain/ headache from the flickering screen


actually, the stream will arc physically if the barrel tip is being moved about at a great manner, such as in deflection shooting, or "hosing" down a target with a GAU... but only in relation to the round fired immediately after (the same as "hosing" off the front path and seeing what the water stream does as the nozzle is moved about) But, in any case, the tracers still are straight and the round still flies straight (taking into account, as mentioned earlier, gravity, projectile launch power, and atmospheric conditions)

Yes. That's why I said equivalent of shutterspeed...

And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s.

The thing is that under the right circumstances the light streak will bend. And as with all tracer streaks it's not really happening but is only an illusion that occurs in the eye of the beholder so to speak.

No one is talking about bullet trajectory - the trajectory could be straight as a laser, the discussed effect would still occur.

And unless you have experience flying an aircraft and firing loads of tracers in sharp turns any amount of firing tracers from fixed positions will not get you to observe the phenomenon, so that experience is for this discussion completely inconsequential.

I for one would really like to see the effect in the game as it would probably look really good from external views.

There is no "equivalent" to shutterspeed or anything like your train of thought there, yellonet, for the human eye. The human eye does not have a shutter.
All that lovely flowing milk, etc, you see in tv adverts, is usually shot at up around 300 ~ 500 frames/ second and sync'd.
Light doesn't bend, except supposedly under extreme magnetic influence... you're confusing afterimage in relation to the eye and the round's velocity... as for the human eye can following the round, I have seen Samurai slice an oncoming bullet in half with a katana but that is in an exceptional circumstance after dedicated training.

the tracer streak doesn't bend, twist, distort or anything, yellonet... the stream does, but not the individual streaks

A Laser beam is physical, tracer streak is not, it's an effect. You cannot compare. As you already said, tracer rounds are dots not beams of light. Different.

You need to take the basic science class not me. If the tracer left a trail of smoke that would be straight no matter what becuse it actually exists. Tracer streak can only exist when it's being viewed. It's not 'there' all the time. It's a dot, or is it a circle or is it 2 circles on top of each other?

You are all over the place. Trajectory is an objects path in a 3d space and we're not dealing in 3d.

Have you ever seen the wobbly pencil trick where you take a real pencil and move it up and down in such a way that it appears to bend? It must be real magic to you...

Holy fricken cow. I'm talking to a 5 year old. I was trying to give you a way to see the effect that you are soo sure happens without actually using a machine gun. So the only thing I can suggest now is to pay someone in the military to set up a range so you can sit there and watch an automatic weapon with tracer rounds fire down range. That way you could run back and forth, jump up and down, clap your hands together and maybe, just maybe as you are spinning 360's and jumping up and down while watching real life ammunition go down range with your own real life eye balls, then you could finally see for your self they move fricken straight.

And for the 100000000000000X, the ONLY reason the pencil "trick" fools your eyeballs is when you are FOCUSING on said pencil. You DO NOT FRICKEN FOCUS ON AN INDIVIDUAL TRACER ROUND WHILE FIRING A WEAPON.

What a complete and utter retard.

No I'm 37.

Retard?

What are you focusing on in CoD? Everything, infinite focal length.

Anyway, here's a diagram. It shows the fight path of 1 bullet between 2 points in time, 1 and 2.

The bullet (Black dot) is fired at X as the aircraft is moving to the left. I have then marked it at several points through it's flight. Not to scale but it works whatever the sideways movement.

At all points the bullet stays straight, aligned to the original target (red lines to the X)

Because its a single point of light we can track where the bullet must have been relative to the viewer. It cannot jump, it must take a continuous path.

This is the purple line, the actual relative path across the eye. It is where the light went. CoD draws tracers aligned to the straight red line (line of flight) when the true path of the point of light across the image is the purple line. The light streak can only exist within this line.

Please let me know, with all of your experience and physics knowledge what part of this is wrong?

http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/z...iagramcopy.jpg

I've already told you enough times that I've lost count, but here goes again: When you move your airplane after you've fired in this sim, the tracers change from your focal point and depending on where you are viewing them they can appear as a dot, a long streak of light, or any variation in between. And for the upteen time, depending on the G's you are pulling while firing you can actually see this light bend.

The diagram you drew out is exactly what happens in the game. The problem that you still yet don't seem to understand is by the time you've changed position to view them differently or to have them change the viewing angle, they are already long gone, such as real life. That's why your attempt at some sort of photoshop masterpiece is a joke. You again are assuming you are looking at point 1 to point 2 when in reality when firing a weapon you are looking at point 3, the actual target.

And I've already let you know in virtually every single post what is wrong with not only your way of thinking, your way of using a weapon, and the way they look. No amount of pictures you produced will change that. And no amount of arm chair experience will ever change that. You are flat out wrong. Thanks again for the confirmation with each and every one of your posts.

Ugh, I don't know why I have to say this as I thought it was quite evident that I just used the "shutter speed" as a metaphor to explain how quick changes the eye/brain can register.
Of course the eye has no shutter.
But regarding this discussion, watching a tracer filmed with a shutterspeed of 1/60 should look similar to what one would see in person.

It does bend. How would the "stream" bend but not the individual streaks?
That could only happen if the streaks where physical rigid objects sticking out of the bullet. Which the streaks are not.

Are you sh***ng me? ALL I HAVE EVER SAID IS THAT A TRACERS STREAK CAN CURVE!

Why are you arguing with me? You're the one who said the stay straight, not me.

MOuhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaa !

You know that this subject has been debated since last year ?
And initially, and actually the ONLY Luthier's response about tracers in COD was : those COD's tracers are PERFECT and there is nothing wrong with them so we wont change a thing about them....
If anyone can show at least 1 guncam or video or whatever that comes even close to what we see in COD's , then I will be convinced....Until then...
You guys are very funny insulting each other about physics, anatomy of the eye, and laser beams, :confused: but in the end, it only takes a good programmer to give us something that would give the impression of what actual tracers would look like from a pilot point of view....Something that would satisfy both RL observers AND
those who only saw ww2 guncams....Cause right now, neither side is happy !

Salute !

You've just reminded me..

Illya also said somewhere (it could have been Oleg, I haven't looked for it) that they initially tried to model them as tracked points of light. The problem they ran into was frame rates.

The lower the frame rate the longer the streak appeared and even at 30 fps the streak was way too long, they had to make a compromise.

That compromise was I think probably, to make the trails, to all intents and purposes, physical objects.

All I was suggesting was that maybe the developers could think about programing tracer streaks relative to motion across the screen, ie. Think in 2D and just paint them in behind, length realtive to speed. Do away with the physical 'bars'.

And this proves exactly what I've been saying all along. You don't listen to a word you've been told. Why don't you go ahead and try reading what I wrote about 10 times now where I've been stating all along that the line can and will bend ONLY if for example, you are pulling extreme G's, your body got moved in such an extreme force (aka me saying if you were hit by a freight train) etc. etc..

Before you backpeddle any further, I suggest you actually read what has been written next time. I would have thought saying the same thing 20 times now would have sank in to most people without an infant mentality. Congrats.

Um, no, to the lot of this.

How am I back peddling?

My position hasn't changed from day 1. I said tracer moves around due to movement.

The problem in cod is that at all times even under high G the tails remain perfectly straight it's almost like they are skidding along the arc they follow, back end slightly out.

They only point to where they are going with no regard to where they were in the previous frame. I've never see a curved bar of light in cod. That's my point.

The fact still remains that my whole argument has been that tracer can appear to curve. You are saying that they only curve under high G.

I'm saying it's a scalable phenomenon and that it happens with any movement and increases relative to speed, I don't know at what point it becomes percepitble, but it does not just switch on ond off at high G, it's incremental.

The thing is, my suggestion to treat it as 2d paint trail would eliminate the question of if you can notice it or not, because you'd noitce it if you could, and not have to render lots of fake bars of light.

I still don't understand why you're arguing with me.

When i was a mere stripling, on November the 5th, I used to write my name in the air with a sparkler.

Nope. Wrong again. The only time a tracer will move around (bend) to your naked eye is when you overcome the image stab that is built into our bodies. Good luck doing that under any sort of condition short of a life threatening jolt, or very high G's.

Wrong again. Many videos including pulse show a slight arc, even if exaggerated in my opinion based on experience from firing while moving at a high rate of speed.

Again, I can only assume you've never even played the game.

Yep, that's how your eyeballs work. That's why if you knew anything about the subject at hand you'd realize the effects you describe come from a camera.

Nope. Wrong again as explained over and over. Come to the US sometime. I'll drive a vehicle at a high rate of speed and fire a weapon directly perpendicular to the direction of the vehicle,s direction of travel and maybe, just maybe, once and for all you can finally realize that the rounds you see will not be bending. But again, don't take it from someone that has years of experience on the subject matter. Either way, I'm sure the devs will not include your hollywood effects anytime soon. They seem to have actually have knowledge on the subject unlike what you have made painstakingly clear.

I hope that's an open offer!

I'll pay for the tracers and beer!!!!! ;)

An oldie but a goodie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppS1W1Otbhc

So your eyes straighten out things all by them self?
How does the human eye cancel out the movement of the plane? Vibration yes, but a turn? Are you serious?

Find me one single bent tracer streak, you can't draw a bent tracer using a line drawn between 2 points, (like the CoD tracer). They are rectangular polygons. and are always shown as this.

Your argument is all over the place , you call me a retard... But you can't understand that all of CoD tracers are made of 3D rectangles that cannot possibly bend. They are perfectly straight at all times.

Or are you going to ignore this rule too.

Find me a bent tracer streak in CoD or shut up..

how do you see that the "And 60 Hz is used as that is the limit of human "shutterspeed", 1/60 s."? because the human eye, does not have a shutter speed (fixed or variable) - it doesn't have a shutter, it doesn't have an FPS either (where it has to draw images to the brain at 60Hz)




winny...
recognise that bullet stream is bending not the tracers @ 0:55 (in the vid) identical to COD

So what you are saying is that the bullet will defy gravity and rise when being fired, instead of starting to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel.
Sorry but that is a myth created by people that doesn't understand how it really works, but please explain.

And you are also denying that if you as an example drive a car at 20 m/s and you fire a shot from that car at 90º to the right, after 1 second that shot will have gone the right (relative the direction of the shot) (about) 20 meters.
Please explain why this doesn't happen.

Either you're not driving fast enough, shooting far enough or just isn't looking at the tracer "stream", and by your own account it's the latter. So you can talk of experience all you want, it is still not relevant to this discussion.

If what you are saying would be true, it would not be possible to create a bent line or circle visible to the eyes with for instance a sparkler. And there is certainly no need to be under extreme forces just to see something like that with your eyes.

According to Bliss' experience that is impossible. You must have imagined it.

I'll have a look..
But I have already taken frames from the same video and drawn straight lines through the tracer and the vast majority are, when the camera is moving, very slightly curved, try it. Some are very curved btw.

I didn't just wake up one morning and think that I wanted to upset the banana forum, I did some research first.

I really don't want to continue repeating myself either, I imagine everyone is sick of me already! I am! :)

(I'm off to look for a Raaaid thread.. much more fun)

And another arm chair experienced weapons specialist.

Great!

Edit: And if you'd actually take the time to read what I wrote (which seems hard to do for some people) you'd realize that a sparkler has nothing to do with the discussion. Neither does staring at a tracer round while firing a weapon. The game has the tracers modeled to what you do in real life when firing a weapon. And that would be focus on the target you are shooting at. If you focus on a sparkler (which your eyes can actually do) you can cause all the retina burn you want. That image might stick around in your head for over a minute. But the thing you don't seem to realize is that a tracer will be gone from your POV in an instant. That's why the Helo video keeps getting brought up. It's going over 100mph in some spots while the gunner is firing almost perpendicular to in some instances to the direction of travel, yet the "curved" effect is hardly noticeable on a video. Well let me tell you something, an airplane just so happens to be traveling 99% of the time in the SAME direction that the guns are pointing. Guess what? That bend or arc that's hardly noticeable in a good video camera is much less pronounced when seeing this with your own naked eye. If you had experience on the subject at hand, just like winny, you wouldn't be trying to bring up a candle or a sparkler that you wave around with your hands and focus on it, and compare it to a high speed moving bullet. Kinda laughable.

This effect has nothing to do with weapons. It's something that happens in the eye when viewing a source of light that is moving and/or if you are moving.

I guess you'll just ignore this but, please explain to us how it works, and no "because I say so" doesn't cut it.
How do you explain the patterns of light that can be created by moving a sparkler fast before your eyes? That's the same effect as firing a tracer and then altering your positing, weather its the light or the viewer that is moving is irrelevant as it's the relative motion that is important.

I suppose that what I was trying to point out here is that the physical behaviour of a tracer round in a geometrical sense is quite distinct from the retinal after image of any bright object in darkness.

If I remember optometry college rightly, (it's along time ago and I don't work in the industry anymore) the after image is caused by the bright object bleaching out the 'visual purple' pigment which stimulates the nerve impulse to the brain, and the after image stays until this pigment is regenerated by the cone cells of the retina. (if anyone is more knowledgable than this I'll stand corrected, a previous career can be like a previous life sometimes!).

I haven't followed Bliss and Winny's argument in detail, but I was just wondering whether this was the missing factor in establishing a common ground.;)

Well it's pretty easy. Go outside and stare at the sun for 10 seconds. You'll notice not only that your eyes will probably hurt but you'll have retinal burn and an image that appears in your mind for, at the very least, an additional 10 seconds after you're done staring at the sun.

Now walk around and don't stare at the sun. Even though the sun could be in your peripheral vision as you are looking straight ahead while walking down the street, you now don't have this image burned into your head. The reason being is that you are not focused on this image. While firing a weapon the tracer rounds come into your peripheral view as they go downrange towards the target. The concept is NO different. I've explained it more times than I count. I'm done posting in this thread.

I've fired tracer rounds, but when I did I wasn't trying to create or look after the effect. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Of course not!
You keep bringing up what one is supposed to do or is doing in most cases when firing a weapon, but guess what, that doesn't matter to the discussion, common practice will not stop this effect from happening under the right circumstances.
The only thing that you've shown is that you will ignore things that doesn't fit in your skewed view on reality, and because you have more experience firing weapons you must be right. But again, this effect isn't about weapons but about light hitting your eye.

Whether or not it's coming from a "high speed moving bullet" or a sparkler doesn't matter as it's the speed over your field of vision that creates the effect.
This discussion is obviously over your head as you've on numerous occasions proven that you do not understand even this simple concept.

Haha :)

S!

Look, you've called me a retard simply because I said tracer can bend, yet you say the same thing. Now we appear to be discussing how much they bend and if you can tell or not.

The problem is that CoDs tracers can't bend because they are rectangular polygons.

A serious question, from your experience how long does a tracer round burn for? Can you see it until it goes out, or does it get to the point where you can't see it because it's too far away?

You say that tracer leaves your point of view 'in an instant'... Not if you're firing whilst flying in the same direction as the bullets.

And, there is no 'focus' in CoD... It's a window on the world, not an eye or a camera, There is no lens in CoD, no motion blur, no point of focus.

Everything is in focus at all times. They are drawing in tracer regardless of where you happen to be looking, at all times.

Unless your wings have come off you are going in the same direction as your guns 100% of the time.

But you're not going in the same direction as your bullets because once they've left the gun they are going where they were fired.

The very action of firing the guns has an effect on the aircrafts movement up, down, left, right. And how many times have you fired your guns whilst flying perfectly straight and level?

A tracers streak must adhere to 2 rules.

Because it's a continuous path..

1. The tip must always point to where it is going
2. The tail end of the streak must always point to where it last was.

CoD breaks the second rule.

And, as already posted, the effect would be too minuscule to be seen!!!
The maximal lateral movement of the viewer is sooooo much less then speed of the light source that the radius of the curve of the tracer would be too large to see a bend in the visible tracersegment.
Maybe you can solve it mathematically, winny? Then there would be no room for interpretations.

Remember that it's not the speed of the bullet that creates the effect but the speed of the light source across the plane of vision, and that speed is superfast when you start off behind the bullet and then veer off from its path.

Yep, it's because you think they should bend all the time. That's why you think the game is wrong. Which to your actual eyeball they only do so under the circumstances I've said 20x now.

You've already been shown told about COD vids that show this. I suggest actually looking at them.

Depends on the round, but I'm sure you could google it like your other answers.

You've just gone from retard to complete moron. If the stationary object (being the weapon) is traveling at 300mph to begin with, the round will be traveling faster than what it would if the weapon was stationary when 1st fired.

Let me guess, are you one of those people that think you can jump at the last second to save yourself from a falling elevator? I guess that jump (or the gun going off in a plane) somehow stops all laws of physics and you start going the complete opposite speed of your fall or the plane magically hops to 0mph when the trigger is pressed so the bullet goes out at it's natural/stationary velocity? LOL OMFG. You've got to be one of the dumbest I've ever seen.

Seems again, you can't seem to read. I've already said that this is a hardware limitation both here and at SimHq.

Same as above, hardware limitations. But the good thing is the round is modeled/drawn exactly as if you were actually firing a weapon, by focusing on the target, and the effects on these rounds in 2d look how they would firing in real life.

Words can't describe your stupidity. If a gun was mounted on a car facing straight forward, all I would have to do is adjust toe in equal amounts one direction or another and the car would be "dog tracking". In other words it's "a skew" to it's actual symmetric position. The car would still be going forward while the gun is not pointing in the same direction as the car.

In an airplane all it would take is a slight wind or a touch of the rudder to have the plane skewed to it's straight forward position. Do I really need to show you a video of a plane "dog tracking" in the wind?

Wow.

Even stationary you'll be hard press to ever repeat where you are firing with an automatic weapon. Again, you're a bright one.

That's what I see in game. Or should I say, what I see in game is very natural to what I see with my own eyes while firing a weapon. Again, I'm glad the devs don't listen to utter buffoons, and instead, have them modeled as close to reality within the 2d scope we are working with.

Now I understand, you're the kind of person that start believing something when you've heard it enough times. Guess what, repeating something that is wrong over and over doesn't make it right.

The "stream" of tracers is bending but the tracer streak is not, that's what's wrong. In your opinion this doesn't matter, and no one is denying you your opinion, but the graphical representation is still wrong.

If the stream bends the streaks should also. How can someone possibly refute this?

About the elevator, theoretically you could, if you knew when to jump and if you could jump powerful/fast enough.

No it isn't. Selective focusing and DoF and more are present in a number of games (to create a movie-esque feel), it's just that it's not needed or wanted in a sim as you're still using your eyes which will create these effects for you whether you like to or not.

Wow, you're starting to look really bad with all those personal attacks...

Ignorance is, literally, Bliss.

My argument in a nutshell has always been.

That tracers appear to curve away from a gun if the gun is moving sideways, or up and Down.

That CoD can't make tracer streak curve because in CoD they are always a straight bar between two points.

That tracer streak must always point to where it's going but also be in line with where it's come from.

If you captured 15 screenshots of one tracer streaks path across the screen when there is also sideways movement and drew a line between the tip of the tracer for each frame you would find that although they always point where they are going they dont always point at where they've been.

I don't care about how percieveable this is. I'm just pointing out the difference between CoD and RL.


If I get you correctly you've been telling me I'm wrong and agreeing with me, on the same point, in the same post, and you're calling me a bufoon...

What part of my argument do you disagree with, so we can be clear?

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Is it over yet :(

I suggest doing research on external ballistics for a start. Then perhaps spend five+ years as a competition shooter, 30+ years as an avid collector and shooter, then get back to me.

As to your automotive example, the projectile will not have curved to the right. It will have flown straight from the time it left the barrel. What will have happened is that your position in the car will have moved forward the 20 meters. Or are you trying to say that if you fire the weapon while travelling at that speed then miraculously stop dead, that the bullet will curve to the right?

LOL!!!

With all that experience I'm sure you can explain the physics that introduce the upwards force on the bullet making it go against gravity.

The bullet will not curve but will travel diagonally.
How do you explain the force on the bullet given by the moving car just disappearing when the bullet is fired?

Lol like that film where angelina jolie bends the bullet around the meat hanging up...Was that not real then? :rolleyes:

Wish i could see a damn screenshot or vid of mod...for the third time.

No I'm the type of person that starts believing something when I've,.. wait for it. SEEN something 1000's of times. Such as the point of this discussion. - what tracers look like.

And again, just like your misinformed counter part you couldn't be more wrong. If I jump in front of a train that is moving 60mph, the train will actually slow down, but will you ever see it? No of course not, because the amount of speed is so negligible that it's hardly worth talking about.

When you are firing a weapon that has rounds traveling 20x as fast as the vehicle car scenario you are talking about the shift of trajectory is so negligible that your eye will never see it, let alone see this bend in a very short section of emitted light source.

Even mythbusters made a special just about this instance. I suggest you watch it, you might actually learn something about physics. The amount of force required to overcome the sheer speed of a free fall elevator would leave every single bone and organ in your body a complete mush if any human being was somehow capable of even attempting such a feat. Last time I checked, no super human has been able to completely flatten their entire body by "jumping".

You're also a real bright one.

Good thing I don't want a movie-esque feel when playing a flight sim. I'll stick to the effects my natural eye balls see.

I call it like I see it. You have both proven to be utter idiots. I'm not here for a popularity contest, and I would rather not have a flight sim I play turned into a movie-esque feel or have it full of camera effects just because some people actually believe what they see in a movie as real life.

Ok I am not reading all this crap but first off no matter who says it - anyone claiming to have RL experience take with a grain of salt, it is the internet. That being said what winny is saying is up to page 9 (stopped there) is correct to an extent. As for the 2d the problem there is that you have 2 eyes that the brain uses to create a 3d image, even though each eye can only see in "2d" individually.
The effect of the trail being left in your eye WOULD occur if you stared at it/focued on it, it would "burn" an image into your retina (desensitizes or overloads certain receptors, cant remember the actual biology of it) just like staring at a lightbulb and then closing your eyes. But you would have to be focusing on the round for it to remain in your vision in that way.

Also wouldnt higher calibre rounds have a larger base and more area emitting light? I dont know (thats why I am asking lol).

looks like the MKI eyeball fps thing won't be explained... must be something selective being applied there - oh well

oh, oh.. that's right - sparklers aren't rounds tracers, they're sparklers



yesss, you've said it yourself - "when the camera is moving" you're seeing the same camera quirk that has tracers zig-zagging in guncam footage

I didn't think it needed explanation as it is quite obvious, except for you, that I did not say that the the eye has no shutter, camera functions were just used as an analogy.
If I had meant that the eye had a shutter I would have said "the eye has a shutter".
But talk all you want the eye still has the limitations as I've said before.

So, what's your point here? Are you saying that there's a difference between different light sources when it comes the the discussed effect?

In your experience yes, but you're either stationary or in a relatively slow moving vehicle. How can you with that experience deny what can happen in a completely different scenario?

I know that it is not practically doable, that's why I said that it was theoretically possible, if you could jump fast enough, obviously your body would be built to withstand those forces.

And Mythbusters, really? I see where you get your extensive knowledge of physics.

No, you want the effect that you see when firing from a stationary position to be valid in all situations, even those that you have no experience of and obviously do not understand.

But it's not a camera effect. Light can and will draw bent lines in your eye. What's so hard to grasp about that. You are obviously incapable of even imagining seeing the discussed effect in any situation, just because you haven't seen it in your irrelevant experience.

Hmmmm....




the velocity difference and length of burn time between a rounds tracer and a sparkler.



People need to keep in mind that a movie camera takes a "snapshot" every 1/25 of a second or so (depending on camera), so, if that camera is "shaking" (even minimally) it takes the "snapshot" at different aspects of the subject, hence the "zig-zagging" of guncam footage... both WWII and the more modern helicopter mounted GAU in the popular (in this thread) YouTube.

From an outside perspective, can anybody answer me this one question:

Why do people insist on arguing on the internet? Its like the special olympics...no matter who wins, your all still retarded.

I disagree, lets argue this out!

There is no way that the human retina could absorb enough light from a passing incandescent object (like a tracer) to perceive any kind of impression that it is bending relative to the vector of the eye (and said owner of the eye).

Maybe if you fired a tracer round past a fly (for example), it could pull in enough light to detect a change in direction relative of the tracer round to the fly's own position if it were to move away quickly. But then, because it takes in more visual information per unit of time, it would see a vastly improved impression of the tracer, with a correspondingly short trail (less flare effect). Therefore; even a creature (and it would have to be a creature - not a human pilot) with vastly improved eyesight could not see tracers as bending.

Light (and interpretation of light) just doesn't work that way.

As for sources: I can't give you any right now. But if it will settle this physics lunacy, I will be/will not be (un)happy to cobble together a (certainly) boring and (utterly) (un)necessary post. I will do it in my own time, because it is so mind numbingly dull. I will look forward to people disputing it as soon as I (don't) post it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh, this never ending argument about something that just cant be solved by any means, other than having better ingame coded tracers..:rolleyes:
Everyone agrees that what we see in real pictures, on real video or even on WW2 guncam is not reliable for all the technical blabla explanations that have been discussed in this thread....So how are we supposed to get a realistic graphic representation of what a real pilot would see in a real plane firing real tracers ?
It cant be done !
So we have two choices : ask a real WW2 fighter pilot to describe in detail what he saw 70 years ago when he fired his guns, or wait for some mods or Luthier to come up with a proposition that would satisfy most of us in terms of "what we feel is close to what we think that maybe would be realisticly accurate in RL":cool:
Until then, keep on arguing if you wish, but you are all wasting your energy unless you put your brains at finding a way to show us how a damn tracer SHOULD look ! :grin:

Salute !

Thats not what he is saying (or I am, or even that I fully agree with him). Also it has nothing to do with the "amount" of light (which would be taken as diffuse lighting/light), but its intensity (density/focus/dispersion etc).

Oh Dutch! you shouldn't have!

http://straightbanana.org/banana1.jpg

No, it does not.

Why do you assume that the pilot's head has to shake exactly the same way as the gun camera? :rolleyes:

The vibration starts with the firing guns, which are attached to the wings, which are attached to the fuselage. The wing roots shake less than the middle of the wings, where the guns and camera are; and the fuselage shakes much less than the wings; and the pilot's head has to shake less than the seat he sits on.





...

Camera v eyball

Here's a small test for the human eyes capability.

If you are not old enough to drive or don't own a car, ask your parents or friend to let you try this.

Find a not so smooth road.

Look forwards when moving then use the screen mounted rear view mirror to look behind you.

The mirror vibrates the image slightly but when you look forwards there's no vibrated image, this is how a WW2 camera behaves when filming guncam it cannot replicate the human eyeballs capability to stabilize the image.

You can keep one eye on the mirror and one eye forwards for the effect.

Now add tracer rounds to this and you will realize the eye ball sees smooth lines and the mirror camera would show wiggles due to vibration.



.

That's a perfect example, well said man! I suppose it won't change some people's mind, but what we have with the sim now is a phisically accurate representation of what it looks like to the human eye, if you want a guncamera effect I have nothing against it, help yourself to learn the modding possibilities and good luck!

Has this actually took 15 pages to prove this point?

Great the resistance to learn is, in some people

That depends on the severity and frequency of the vibration. The human eye processes visual stimulation at a far higher rate than an 1940's camera but it is not immune to disruption through vibration either, only less prone to the level of vibration experienced during a car ride over a rough road.

There certainly should be some kind of blur effect added at least.

Yes, yes it has. :grin:

Frightening, isn't it...

My God ! This is the first best exemple of how a tracer should look like !

Its shorter, a bit yellow, pointy at both ends and slightly bent....Just add a faint smoke trail and a rotating movement , so it looks like its wiggling and this will be it ! All those " I dont care what the experts say" and those "well, I am an expert cause I saw tracers in RL" will be absolutely mesmerized by this simple and efficient tracer mod...
Thanks !

Salute !

and they'd go splat really well

Just found a picture roughly to illustrate that the vibration varies at different parts of the fighter:

http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/39...rating-SPL.jpg

The wing is in a sense like the long ruler, and the table the fuselage, since the mass of the fuselage is much, much larger than that of the wing. (There is a bit of physics omitted here.) Please pay attention to the magnitude of vibrations at different parts of the ruler. In fact the woman's right hand and the table also vibrate - negligibly to the human eye.

And the human body is soft to a certain extent; in particular, the soft tissues between consecutive bones of the spine are just for absorbing vibrations coming from the bottom or legs to the head or brain. That's why the head shakes even less than the seat if the seat (fastened into the fuselage) ever shakes slightly.

~~

Have you guys made a quick search " tracers" on this forum ?
Actually, I should say: guys, obviously, you didnt make a search....

This subject has been debated for months and the conclusions are those:
Actual tracers in COD are not good enough yet and real pilots didnt see any wiggling when firing their guns...
You have 3 choices now : Trust a senior member that has been debating this subject more then too much, or, make a damn search for yourselves, or ,continue debating forever because you wont be able to prove any of what you say....Whatever you say.

I only watch this thread in the hope that someone educated will come up with something tangible...Until now, the Banana tracer is the best we have....:grin:

Salute !

I have it on good authority that bananas grow on trees and bear no relation whatsoever to bullets from a gun.

The vibration you're talking about is absolutely out of scale and wrong.

When you shoot with a machine gun it doesn't rumble or vibrate, it just had one major force vector (which we can call "recoil") that pushes in the opposite direction of the bullet direction. So, Imagining the CoG of the plane as your pivot, the plane would rotate backward on its yaw axis because of recoil, only to be compensated by the other machineguns on the opposite wing and the plane movement vector. As a consequence you can get a flicker on the yaw axis, which varies in its amplitude and frequency according to the guns you're shooting with. The recoils though won't be enough in terms of vector strength or frequency to cause vision blur or flickering like you see in guncameras, but I can tell you that there are other vibrations that can.

I was in a Cessna Caravan which had a prop governor failure, with one of the props going straight into feathering: the vibration and frequency were so intense that the whole world went blurry and your could hear your skull bones rattle! Not a nice experience! It was a second, just the time to switch the engine off, but man the engine could have easily come off its mount!!

Yeah man...Can you prove it ? ;-)

Salute !

Interesting...Really...Can you prove with referenced scientific documentation what you are describing in your thread ?
:grin:


Salute ?

I believe there is no scientific documentation at hand (or maybe there is, but I don't know of it), truth is that if you studied some physics at school you might understand why what I am saying makes sense and what you are saying doesn't. I swear that if I had some time though I would write it down neatly with all the vectors and formulas (which you might not understand anyway.. have u ever studied any dynamics at school?), this just for the sake of science of course. We're here to share knowledge and experience, not to waste anybody's time.

Well, everybody knows that tracers do not wiggle.
By your own words, those who think so are non-educated people.
If you consider that proving with facts your " knowledge and experience" is wasting people's time, you should call your thread " my personnal opinions".

Oh, by the way, my first reply was , of course, a joke, since most of our dicussions are sterile and useless since we CANT prove anything we say by any simple means...And I still cant find what is that I wrote that doent make sense...:grin:

Salute !

I believe you misinterpreted my post. I KNOW for a fact that my point is right, I don't need to demonstrate it to myself, and so the guys at Maddox games know, cos they're skilled people. If it was the opposite, then I would do my best to prove my point. If people don't believe me or them it's not my problem, I wish I had more time to explain them things in detail, unfortunately I don't, so it's either "you better believe me man, cos I know what I am talking about" or "oh well, tough luck..".

It's ever so hard to tell jokes from the truth in these forums, maybe we should use tags. I don't know whether your discussions might be sterile and useless, but I know that I like to think of my technical contribution as knowledgeable, fact-based and generally correct.

Your example doesn't make sense because the elastic oscillation of a ruler, which goes UP and DOWN, as nothing to do with the yaw oscillation, which a) is not structural b) is not that intense.

Hope this helps understanding things better.

Haha...Good one...So if YOU and Maddox KNOW you are right , and you still dont care what other people think, why bother writing these posts ?

ANd why start any discussion when you go : I know that I like to think of my technical contribution as knowledgeable, fact-based and generally correct. Is there any room for discussion or you are only generously sharing your
omnipotent knowledge ?

And by the way, since our discussion began with my smarta$$ joking reply,
I just want to tell you that you were soooooooo preoccupied by your flawless humble reputation that you missed something here...I am not the one you were trying to educate about laws of physics and "elastic oscillation"...Wrong guy, wrong response mate...:grin:

Salute !

I've yet to see anyone take into account two things, though I could have missed a post in all the drama:

1. The wing and aircraft vibrates. That doesn't cause the tracer to wiggle or vibrate, but it DOES cause the CAMERA to do so. Any effect such as this seen in video of any era is probably due to the camera vibrating. Not the tracers.

2. Cameras in the early 40s and through the late 50s did not shoot the same frame-rate or with the same consistency that cameras now do. Very many an effect of number of tracers scene, their fade ins or outs, and speed have a great much to do with the framerate, consistency/reliability of the primitive cameras used aboard the aircraft in trying and high-mechanical stress situations.

I see a lot of folks whining about tracers not looking like they do in movies or guncam clips.

Well...it's not a photo-realistic game yet. It's close, but it's not there.

However, it isn't going to look exactly like a movie, because even a movie camera can be made to have that jiggling effect to look familiar to folks, and if you really wanted lighting that looked realistic, don't go by cameras. They have filters and lenses that cause lighting that your eye perceives differently. Glows and fade outs in movies could be more noticeable without being larger or brighter, to the naked eye as opposed to film.

So the question stands is, What do you expect from a video game based on a computer-graphics engine as opposed to real-life? Do you think perhaps the fact that the video game doesn't make your entire field of vision vibrate like a jostling camera at low framerate is a bad thing? Perhaps the fact that no matter the game is 3-d rendered, it's still coming at you from a 2-d screen, and thus glow effects and other real-life eye effects simply cannot ever be rendered in a truly compelling fashion unless shot by a real camera and somehow spliced in?

Things to think about while you pretend to have been an actual combate pilot in WWII and thus know exactly what tracers looked like with your naked eye in the pit during a real fight. You guys have a pretty stellar game. Don't get too caught up in itty-bitty details of reality you'll never achieve with computer graphics for another few years...

...Look at games like Crysis, for example. Even their fire effects and sparks and the like are not truly realistic looking.

With all the high technology around here, you kids have forgotten how to have 'Suspension of Disbelief" and use your imagination while playing the game. You'd have never lasted playing "Aces over Europe." Haha!

erm.. well there still might be people out there that want to know how things work without trolling... I really don't get what you're trying to say here :confused:

Sorry mate...I am not trolling here ...I was just pulling your leg a bit in my first reply......But your response was kind of "harsh and pretentious" and that is when I understood you were thinking that I was the other guy with whom you had an ongoing discussion....
BUt you have to admit though that when a fellow writes in a discussion forum that he knows he's right and has knowledge that we may not understand even with some explanation and if someone disagrees with him that makes the other guy wrong, it can be perceived has being ..well...you know...:rolleyes:
Let's not make an issue out of this...I wont comment anymore on your posts...
But I am still hoping for great tracers in COD !

Salute !

Agree, tracer fire is poorly done
 

I have to agree with the lack of tracer quality on the game. I have seen tracers fired in real world settings, I have shot them myself watching them go out. My first impression with these in the game was WTF? They look cheap, lazy, and ridiculous. They leave too fast, and appear to move in a perfectly straight line outward. No convergence what soever of ballistic drop. I tried aiming high at a bomber to ark and compensate for bullet drop....no need, they flew straight like lasers. I simply has to point and fire. Firing weapons my whole life including machine guns, I was puzzled and confused by the lack of balletic physics that appear in COD. Also, the tracers leave and at about 100 yards out and magically vanish into nothing. I hate to say it, but this is a sad excuse for tracers and seriously makes the game look as if they put something in for a temporary marker while testing and forgot to fix it.


I know a lot of you on here think they supposedly look "authentic", but having fired automatic weapons with tracers.....um, no...they look like crap and sound like crap.

Before I hear a bunch of fan boys trying to chastise me, I have been playing sims for over 20 years and am an avid support of maddox. I own the complete Il-2 series and have loved them, this is why I showed my support and bough a 50 dollar game with a POOR 2.0 average rating from all the user and professional critic reviews and websites. I figured they will work all this out, but some stuff is really bad. You have to call a spade a spade.

When I buy a new Il-2 game, and I find myself booting up 1946 to play when I have COD staring me on the shelf....yeah they really screwed the pooch. Hyper lobby if full of Il-2 hardcore gamers loading up 1946 despite the fact COD is out. That says a lot right there.

Haha, or the original Red Baron... :D

Flaming tennis balls with an effective range of around about 5 miles.

I think the trails look very cool from what I've seen on YT.

+1...And even those who never saw tracers in RL have the same feeling about COD's....That is awkward !
Thanks for your testimony...

SAlute !

I'm going to go ahead and "laugh out loud"

Thanks for that.

The 'shaking ruler' is only for those who are complete strangers to physics ;). If you talked with scientific rigour, your time would be totally wasted. So I chose that pic as a tentative analogy, and used words like 'roughly' and 'in a sense'.

I think what you said was mostly, but not completely, right, since you were talking about an ideal situation. The strictly backward recoil can of course generate vibrations in directions perpendicular to the recoil. Example: When you fire a pistol at a point on the horizon, your hand experiences upward movement too, which is perpendicular to the recoil.

I guess a fighter pilot won't shoot when the whole world goes so blurry that he can't see clearly his target. But yes, as you said, there are other vibrations.

~

As police officer and person who has trained on many automatic weapons, I am going to go ahead and laugh out loud.


Gotta love the ignorance on these forums.

Since when do police officers train with automatic weapons?

Do I really need to make an ingame video with icons on to show you A.) the game has ballistics that are quite good B.) You can see tracers much further than 100yards/300ft/91 METERS. I have my guns converged at 500m and I can watch the tracers cross each other and extend.

Then you are talking about making a deflection shot within 91meters where the bullets won't even come close to even being slow enough to have any substantial sort of bullet drop to deflect - and I'm assuming this with your astute observation that a tracer disappears within 91 meters or as you say 100 yards in this sim.

Then you go on to say that a tracer looks like a laser blast as if that's a bad thing. Star wars blasters were modeled off of what tracer ammo looks like.

I don't even think you've fired gun in your life, let alone seen a real life tracer.

The ignorance on this forum doesn't surprise me one bit. The sheer stupidity does.

And just to show you what a still camera shot looks like of tracer rounds:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/373...cbcamppend.jpg

That pic is with a slow shutter speed. A plane flying with this shutter speed looks like a streak.

Also,

When do police officers train with automatic weapons?.... Seriously? PD uses automatics all the time. Not to mention, here in AZ, we can legally own them. My close friend has 3 autos we shoot all the time. fully auto M-4, fully auto mac-11, and a fully auto MG-42 made in 1943.

So you think I have never shot a weapon huh? You want to fact check me? I'm pretty easy to find. Here is my biography. My name on here is Dialn911 (Dial for my last name, N for my first). My Name is Nick Dial. A simple Google search brings me right up.

http://circlethewagons.net/files/200...ge-300x225.jpg[/URL]
"Nick Dial is co-founder of circle the wagons.net. Nick is a certified police officer in the state of Arizona, graduating from the police academy in 2006 with a 4.0 GPA. Nick is currently a student in Counter Terrorism and Homeland Security. He is a member of The National Society of Collegiate Scholars, the Golden Key International Honor Society, Alpha Betta Kappa Honor Society, Alpha Phi Sigma Criminal Justice Honor Society, and the Future Business Leaders of America-Phi Beta Lambda Chapter. Nick is also on the President’s Honors list at the University which he attends. In 2010, Nick was selected for publishing of his article, “Arizona Immigration Law 1070: An Arizona’s Officer’s Perspective, by the National Society of Collegiate Scholars."
http://circlethewagons.net/get-diale...ith-nick-dial/

Here I am shooting a fully automatic M4 in some of my police gear, see the big words on the back that say POLICE?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSMGXcgOUIg


Normally, I would not go to this trouble to disclose who I am or my credentials, however you have been very smug and rude to others as well as me. Sometime punks like you with a loud mouth need to be shut up and put in their place. You questioned my background? here you go. Unless you have something showing me your REAL WORLD experience, your nothing more then a weekend warrior hiding behind a keyboard thinking their the greatest thing since tetris.

Pretty sad.

So you posted all that to cover up the fact that you think tracers aren't visible past 91 meters, have no ballistics, and shouldn't go straight?

Do you think that's going to change the fallacies of what you've already said?

And most people that know me know exactly what I do. I don't need to post pictures from my last deployment to prove I know what I'm talking about.

Oh and I'd love to see you try and "put me in my place". No wonder you're a ******. Looks like you got put in your place way too many times as a kid.

THIS POST HAS BEEN REPORTED - NAME CALLING IS BAN OFFENSE

I've reported this post. I'm a police officer as well and anyone who stoops to name calling like that needs to be banned.

thanks for the support. I thought about letting it go, but people like this tarnish forums such as this.

Stay safe out there banned.

Oh goodie!

Maybe they'll side with you after I was called this and threatened. But I highly doubt it considering not a single argument to support his statement was attempted after I pointed out how wrong 911 was.

But by all means, let me know when you get that video together than shows a tracer round is not visible after 91m!

I can't wait!

Anyone else finds this tracer disputes totally stupid and ridiculous? Whats the point? Tell me cause i really would like to know why you insit to convince the other guy that he is wrong and you are right. Reminds me of this.

http://cdn.thegloss.com/files/2010/1..._internet1.jpg

It's probably my fault,but repeating everytime my experiences and background kinda wears you down,maybe I should put it in my profile.. Anyway,for what is worth,from my experience of firing with automatic weapons during the Army service,ranging from Nato MGs up to M2 HMG,and so knowing enough about ballistics and real life experience,I can tell you that the representation of the sim is by far the most accurate we have seen so far in the world of simulation.

The fashinating thing about physics is that it has no mercy: either you know it well or it will bite you in the aXX..

You don't need scientific rigour,but examples that need to pertinent to the topic discussed,a lot of stuff looks similar in phisics,but it's not quite the same.
and here's my point proven. The strictly backwards recoil generates force vectors,not "vibrations" that are conditioned by pivot points,and yr example is the perfect evidence:when shooting a pistol your wrist becomes the pivot point,hence the rotation upwards,which is amplified on semiautomatic pistols because of the slider movement. Interestingly enough,if you held the pistol "gangsta style",with the grip and barrel horizontally positioned,the recoil will push the pistol inwards towards yr aiming axis.. The crazy stuff u can do at a shooting range :rolleyes:

Can I ask you what calibre and "real world settings" you used when shooting tracers man?

Ok...My last post ;-)
That is very strange when so many RL experienced posters still have very different opinions regarding COD's tracers...
There is no concensus , even among all of those who shot so many types of calibers in various conditions...

Still waiting for better tracers...

SAlute !