They better not dumb things down. The only dumbing down that better happen is allowing these players to drive little yellow short busses around on the map while we strafe and bomb them.

http://imcdb.org/i082757.jpg

:mrgreen: +350,000

Do you think 1C will manage to do accurate and advanced FM for such many planes like in Warbirds if they have serious trouble to do correct FM and performacne for a few BOB planes??

Then you're a very stupid man because the kids are the future. If they grow up with an apathetic nature towards this genre, it will die out with the 'adults'. Period.

CloD doesn't need to go this route to survive. The original series showed that simplicity is key. RoF's base game is now free, but to upgrade you need to play. IMHO that's a great way to get people into the game, and for the arcade types CloD has the settings to make the game an easy ride (just as the original Il-2 did). Keeping the kids out is an awful decision. Allowing them to mature in is highly logical.

+1
keeping customers out, regardless of age, is certainly not clever ace, neither for 1c nor for us, but i can imagine, that you would certainly be happy to pay 12 dollars/hour to fly alone in the skies, pretending to be an ace.:grin:

Oh you kids say the dardest things!

Phill.. I know I have said this to you in the past..

But it apears that you have forgot?

So allow me to say it again

You seem to have me confused with someone that gives a flip about what you say or think..

Just for future reference know that I don't!

Thanks in advance! S!

His point, though, is apt.

You could've said it would keep immature players out, but by generalizing the term 'kids', you are being an ignorant fool.

Hardly

In that kids eventually grow up, at which point they will be able to afford to play.

Granted this filter can result in keeping out kids who don't act like kids..

But considering the fact that most kids act like kids it would not be a big loss IMHO!

At least that is the way it worked, and worked well back in the AirWarrior days when we paid $12/hr to play. With a filter like that, you didn't see anyone sitting in the lobby spaming the text at $12/hr like so many kids do today

That and most kids don't give a rip about historically accurate flight sims..

At that age chances are they will be off playing the arcade MMO version anyway..

Typically it takes time, as in grow older, before someone can appreciate the historically accurate flight sims

Hardly

In that kids eventually grow up, at which point they will be able to afford to play.

Granted this filter can result in keeping out kids who don't act like kids..

But considering the fact that most kids act like kids it would not be a big loss IMHO!

At least that is the way it worked, and worked well back in the AirWarrior days when we paid $12/hr to play. With a filter like that, you didn't see anyone sitting in the lobby spaming the text at $12/hr like so many kids do today

That and most kids don't give a rip about historically accurate flight sims..

At that age chances are they will be off playing the arcade MMO version anyway..

Typically it takes time, as in grow older, before someone can appreciate the historically accurate flight sims

AOA proving once again why he should be forever ignored, lol the utter ignorance!

P.S.

Please for crying out loud stop quoting him!

Poor JG52Krupi.. still having trouble admiting he has come full circle and that I was right back when he was defending the whinners

Screw the kids. Can we keep the immature adults out?

Hey, that would be the ultimate demise of CloDBoMMoM.

@ everyone

Stop the personal stuff and the speculations or its off to the Crystal Ball.

Many thanks


:)



.

Take note forum! He has no logical reply so results to personal attacks. How charming. He has the grammar of a child as well, so perhaps we are seeing hypocrisy personified?

He also fails to realise that, by isolating the future from this genre...there is no future. But note that you need not lower the game towards the future generation. They have WoP and the like to get a thirst for this genre, and Il-2, CloD etc provide the necessary realism to further their enjoyment. As I said before: CloD et al have the relevant modes to allow arcade styles of play. Not every adult plays at full-realism. What about older gentlemen who struggle?

Ignorance is bliss, but it doesn't earn money.

Also, AoA, if my posts are so abhorrent then please put me on ignore.

Yes take note..

And note philips initial reply to me where he said

Nothing funnier/sadder than a guy who STARTED the personal attacks trying to play the part of the VICTIM

Fighter pilota are notoriously aggressive people, but you guys are a bit exaggerating now :-D

It's typical British humour, AoA. I would have said it to anyone on this forum, and I'd say it to my friends in real life. It's said in the context of jest.

Note that I didn't make it personal by any means. I simply stated that your approach was ignorant, at best, and stupidity in the very least. And I stand by that, as others here have. Just in the same way you have called Potenz ignorant for not understanding the meaning of DX-11 API. Those in glass houses, mate...

Guys please/..............

Nothing funnier/sadder than a guy who STARTED the personal attacks trying to play the part of the VICTIM and when caught doing so trys to play down and or re-spin his personal attacks

So now that we've gathered that the kids are the future of the flight-sim genre, will an MMO allow the offliners the chance to play? Or is CloD to be handed to the onliners for good?

A number of interesting and competing points here and I'd just like to pick up on a couple.

To those that don't think MMO has much to offer I'd say, as an ex Air Warrior and Aces High player, that to take part in a properly organised scenario with say 400 others, assigned to units, planned on a historical scale, briefed, comm'd and organised etc in a historical action like BoB, Pearl Harbour or Big Week creates a level of immersion you just don't get in IL-2 1946 or CoD. Whilst the latter may (will?) have FMs, graphics etc down pat they don't offer that immersion and the feeling of (almost) "being there". Unless you taken part in one of those scenarios and felt the hairs stand up on the back of your neck you may not understand. But that is what many of the more serious WWII simmers want, something to take them deeper into that era and experience. All we get in CoD is a shallow world of a few small time combats and a few small formation intercepts. In IL-2'46 you may also have more objective based maps and some DGEN campaigns but no real scale to them. Just a few squadrons before hitting the 128 limit or more likely about 80. Stop and think. CoD can never really deliver even one typical day in the BoB because it can't support even 400+ aircraft at one time. CoD doesn't deliver the BoB. It needs to be taken to another level or it remains just a few aircraft dogfighting or bombing or the occasional small scale raid scenario. Before someone shouts 'MMO? ping, packets, bandwidth, impossible' that's for the devs to work out and the broadband companies to deliver on as many of them are now. And the next cry, 'we can't get more than 1Mb BB, I can't afford a PC to run it', I'm sorry but you can't expect to run this stuff at that level without the kit and yes that's another squeeze on the market which is why the mass market, arcade, low data bandwidth is important to make what we want on the side viable. What was that? That kind of technology split isn't viable? Look at that i-phone in your hand. Think back ten years.

Regarding 'the kids'. You either want realism and the commitment to learning it demands or you want arcade. Take a look around at the guys you know playing IL-2 '46 and CoD. I bet most of them aren't kids but they were 10 or 15 years ago when they didn't have the patience for sims like IL-2 and played Mario instead. Only a percentage of them even now have the patience for IL-2/CoD which is why 'realism' is a niche market. So what do 1C do to survive? They have to offer to the mass market, the kids, hopefully to be able to support the niche realism market (which is probably where their hearts as aviation sim developers lie). So bring on a MMO with both arcade and full switch settings, different bandwidth demands and servers to support them (Aces High has - had? - different realism levels on their servers).

Pay a monthly subscription? If it captures the arcade market too it should be cheap enough for what you get back. £10/$15 a month? Thats a couple of Big Macs, Fries and a drink and lasts 30 days instead of 15 minutes. Of course the run of the mill play will be set by the server managers but the opportunity for the community to have access to the server and plan and organise large scale special events will give those planners a new world to work with.

Considering MMO business models:
Free DLC? OK if its 'earned' by some kind of server tracked 'career' points.
Paid DLC to 'Buy what you've earned'? Perhaps if its not expensive.
Buy to Win? Absolutely not in the 'realistic' model. Of course in the Arcade model.

But can 1C regularly deliver 'new' content for the arcade players and keep the cash coming in?

With $15 / month, you can finance $1000 easy with a credit card, so what are you giving those people ?

$200 for Prepar3d is cheaper !!!

So to make things simpler, a game for the price of a computer...

Agreed 100%

And just to be clear.. The kind of kids I was refering to are the ones that are trying to play mario while playing IL-2! ;)

I got into CFS 1 when I was a kid and took it from there. I played mario as well, patiently, at expert level.

I think there are far too many generalisations about what kids are in these topics; especially when there are members here, with all due respect, who have the grammar of kids or type with the same ignorance as the kids they are slamming against (not meant to sound sexual at all)

And I'm not aiming this at anyone. My point was, and I don't want to further any ambiguity, that the kids are the future. Consequently excluding them completely would end this genre.

Now I can play 1946 with easy settings and have a blast. It has a high learning curve, but I think it's easy to get into. It's what I first noticed about the original Il-2 demo. I crashed the first time I tried to get that 109 off the ground, but I was stunned by everything. CFS has sat on the shelf ever since.

So really, whilst many kids are happily button bashing and playing mario, the ones who find out about this game and get into it genuinely have an interest, and it would be unwise to not recognise this.

Just my 2p. I don't want to get into arguments with AoA because whilst he may have something personal against me, I don't have anything against him, and I find such pettiness childish.

phill.. act like an adult for a moment and heed Alpha's wishes and let it go as I did after your last week atempt to keep this argument going by del my post to you.. Deal?

That sounds all fine and dandy klem, but if this is supposed to be built off the Clod engine, then they have some serious work cut out for them. We have the best server hardware on the planet dual cpu 6 cores a piece / 10gbps connection and the game can barely handle 50 players at the moment without an absolute slide show. I just can't see some other host spending the money on hardware like that or the software to somehow be able to support anything near that. I'd love to be proved wrong, but the only way I see that sort of stuff happening is if everything is entirely dumbed down.

My main concerns as I stated earlier with MMO stuff is it usually takes away from the users ability to manage things. Currently we don't even have real dedicated server files, and have to deal with things like steam disconnecting and so on. Now just imagine we have to connect to steam and then a browser ran by 1C. I just see an even bigger potential for failure that way. Look at ROF and their master browser. Servers shut down at 50 players, stats disappear, servers crash, all from it being overloaded/terrible coding. Again, I'd love to be proved wrong, but you have a constant online connection that now has to rely on not only steam but also another browser, I just see the recipe for an epic failure.

My only hope is that this is a completely standalone thing from the new SOW/BOB/CLOD series we have now, and that BoM is the next installment. I can deal with steam, and waiting on things to get fixed. But saying this engine is capable of MMO style stuff will be believable when I see it. If they can't fix what we have now, how can they even think about announcing an MMO based off the same engine? It just boggles the mind.

This.

It seems 1C does not have a clear idea of what direction to take. First we have an appalling release of a much hyped and (off the back of IL2) defacto flight sim. Sadly we are now over a year down the line with the game still in an appalling state. I recall thinking that 4-6 months down the line CloD would be up and running and yet here we are.

1C then announces BoM and moving some of the key ingrediants (Dynamic weather etc) from CloD to BoM. CloD is supported in terms of fixing the game (as it should be) but no further development in terms of expanding this particular area of conflict.

Now we see an MMO announcement as WoT an WoP are making steady cashflow on a F2P / P2W model and 1C wants a part of that cash rich area. Meanwhile DCS releases a P51 technology demonstrator that whilst still has a long way to go is relatively flawless as they build on DCS World.

I am not sure what 1C are doing but it's all rather fragmented.

I can't wait to get phat lootz grinding Spitfires on ATAG! ;)

That's exactly why War Thunder MUST be seen as serious competition by 1C. Because I think people will migrate in there in mass after launch. The graphics are not bad at all, the FM's are not totally arcadish, and the feeling of being there is right there!

I miss Tree. I'd like to hear his take on all this. ;)

Well to weigh in on this MMO conversation. I am a beta tester for War Thunder, and it IS arcade mode.......for now. However, when played in the cockpit, it is as rewarding as anything I have experienced in CoD. I am taking the game modes with a grain of salt in anticipation of the editor, dynamic campaigns and large scale war that will also offer tank and ship battles (you will be able to control them individualy). The FM's feel ok, the complexity is about at the level of Wings of Prey, or 1946.

Thats about all I can say about it due to the NDA, but I can tell you I have never CTD'd out of a session. The game runs incredibly smooth. Those two things alone have me playing it more than CoD.

Lots of people love to rank up (Im not one of them TBH) but it does keep you coming back to try and edge in a few more points. We'll have to see how they other game modes are managed (full real historic battles) but over all I would not count WT WOP out just yet.

I don't think the twin MMO (thunder and WOW planes :) will challenge IL-2 BOB/CLOD and its successors (once the bugs are fixed) or DCS p-51


The level of detail is greater and those engines (dcs and CLOD) are better than the old IL-2 1946 (which thunder has and WOWP will probably copy)


Also the type of flyer one will cater to is different. Thunder and WOWP will be for the gamer set, who probably have a mmorpg account, dabble in Call of Duty series games, have a console, while CLOD and DCS will be for the simmers.


I'm glad WOWP and Thunder are out. If they get the air / ground / sea epic action feel down, it will motivate Il-2 devs to get the same in their game (while retaining the sim feel of the game)


I think its good, because the more then genre is out there, the more developers willing to take a chance at making a great ww2 flight sim. Heck it may even return to the golden age of simming where we had lots to chose from.


Someone mentioned the devs don't have a direction in the game. They do. Look back to IL-2 1946's and the roadmap is similar (note I didn't say the same). One aspect is making it close as a sim as possible (given restrictions of hardware / software) regarding details. Then the other is releasing new plane sets / vehicles / theater of operations per iteration of game until all of WW 2 and Korea are covered.

It's just the complexity and issues are much to handle, and they are doing the best they can.

---------

Just some notes about MMO's . . .

one of the main problem with cash cow MMO's is the more cash is flowing in, the more the game approaches the radar of hackers and cheaters.

I remember in Il-2 people could spot cheaters really easily, and since alot of vets knew how certain planes flew / handled / weaponry etc.

But in mmo's with lots of accounts and servers, the cat and mouse game usually ends up the haxors playing the cat.

MMORGP's is a fact. Take WOW (world of warcraft), Blizzard rakes in millions and they have teams dedicated to catching cheaters. But cheating happens, and alot of it has to do with the guys/gals used to catch cheaters or help the players (game / dungeon master role) as they tend to pass code / help out friends.

The game code is very mature, so the devs know all aspects of it and the new guys taking over, will have documentation out of their ears to figure something out. But the thing is, exploits are easy because alot of non devs had managed to piece the code together over the years and also architecture wise have found certain holes . . .

The game is based on a simulated dice roll, and I got lucky and got included in a guild where they had game hacks to always get the top % of their rolls. The game got easy and very boring afterwards. It was fun at first, being like Neo in the Matrix but it got boring.

WOWP and Thunder doesn't have the $$ and manpower blizzard has, and so their defenses against hacking will have lot less resources.

Il-2 was able to get away because the community usually played watchdog. the problem with MMO's is the community is more fragmented due to the size . . . .


Another thing . . .


I'm wondering how they handle the complexity. Will they take IL-2's route, where more complex engine handling and skill at engine management and things like trim, will allow an edge over some that has arcade settings?

Also the balance factor, they say experten and newbs will be in the same scenario. Strangely enough if someone has wonder woman view vs full on, even experten in full on will find it harder if intermediates have wonder woman?


Then there's the experience points, so say someone racks up tons of exp, he's an expert right? So that means he only gets full CEM and full cockpit only . . .

Also usually MMO's need to keep the guys playing for a long time, and if they have people needing massive points to slowly unlock all the planets or play though campaigns to unlock planes that take forever (and keep them on their monthly tab) people will lose interest.

Or if heavily experienced they get "rpg" (role playing game bonus) like if flying through fog, they can see further, or cross wind landings affect them less etc . .. they get more hits on gun fire (provided both are shooting correctly according to ww2 standards and deflection and convergence equal to a not experienced game wise, player) etc

but then you'll have uber super players, and that's the inherent problem of the rpg aspect.

If people play MMO style games for a long time they expect to get rewarded for it . . . and this can unbalance things.


It's just easier to CLOD and IL-2 style, then its just a matter of skill.

Not a gripe at your post at all, Hiro... just an observation. lol

I've noticed that some people seem to think that one can either be a gamer or a simmer. :D I used to play EVE and Warhammer Online, I have dabbled in Call of Duty and enjoyed it thoroughly, I have all three of the current games consoles............. and I also love a realistic simulator.

We are out there, you know! :D

Though it has to be said..... flying CloD has totally ruined all my other, more arcadey, flight games. :D

Friday Update will be late in the evening.

Thank you B6

Thank you very much!

Cue the drum roll .....................................


:) thxz B6

Thx !
Question : update may concerne news or stuff as recovering hits effects, etc... ?

We will have to fix all broken effects and DX9 in final version of patch.

Thanks for the info...looking forward to the update.

Alexander

cant wait for the il2-MMO version of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs56Mr9iFqQ

This must now be the biggest internet cliché around, it was funny 5 years ago but now it's just eurgh...

then dont watch it, simple

I check in with the WT website several times a week , but it gives no clue about possible release date...do you have a ballpark idea?

I think they will try to cash in on the current DayZ craze and have zombies running around the airfields. MMO players will be tasked with fighting through the zombie hordes to board their plane. :rolleyes:

I understand all you say Bliss and I can't claim to know what 'the engine' can or can't deliver. I am just stepping back and looking at the gameplay advantages of MMO which I always hoped CoD would be capable of. In my simple mind there seemed to be two questions determining the success of MMO (bear in mind Aces High has been doing this for years at 'lower specs').

1. Can my PC deliver on such a volume if activity? Only a percentage of the MMO aircraft are going to be within range and in need of rendering at any one time. This does seem to be a factor related to 'the engine' and if realism means a high spec PC then so be it. As an option in a game capable of offering 'Full Realism' for the hardcore and 'Relaxed Realism' for the mass market the return could make it viable.

2. Can the WWW deliver on the data exchanges necessary? Obviously a factor of the connection available and if realism means a high bandwidth BB then again so be it. A lower level of data transfer could serve the mass arcade market.

These are problems for the devs to solve. I don't much care about the technicalities, that's their problem.

Similarly, I don't care whether a MMO uses Steam or not. Again, its a dev choice of a suitable means for success.

We are the customers. We set the market expectations. Don't get stuck in what today offers. Expect it, demand it. It won't happen otherwise.

btw I never for a moment thought of CoD and BoM being an integral part of the MMO. I believe that is a separate animal even if its based on the same engine.

Interesting question for me is would I play a Maddox Games MMO if it were of lesser quality than CoD/BoM? I left Aces High II because of the dumbed down flight models and the "one ping, no wing" damage models. If 1C delivered MMO with good FMs and DMs but perhaps with 'reductions' in other areas, would the immersion of MMO campaigns be enough to compensate?

I'm all for MMO as long as it's optional.

The way i see it, the best business model is the one that doesn't infuriate the users. And since users get infuriated when they have no choice on certain things, but they all like different things, it's best to have options.

If it was my decision and it was doable, i would do it like this:

CoD is the first sim in the series.

BoM is the second sim, playable as standalone or merged with CoD.

The main game engine is the same, so improvements in that aspect carry over across all titles.

So far, it's the same as the previous IL2 series model.

Then, here comes the optional bit: people can have servers like the ones we have now, or pay a monthly fee to play on the company servers which will presumably have better scenarios and/or beefier hardware.

This way, if i want to play on the MMO servers i can pay the fee, but if i want to i can still fly on the community servers.

As long as the MMO model doesn't limit the amount of control we have over how we play, i don't care. So, either give us the above option or make the MMO sim a completely separate release based on the same engine. Forcing the users down a one way street is always the worst possible choice.

agree 150%. Hope it´s going to be this way...

That's actually what I hope for. I'm not so much into mmo stuff and it would be nice to see this series evolve into the IL2 kind of way. Man, I'm dying to play this sim seeing all those great birds coming along but money doesn't permit kind a deal so far. Still I follow these updates patiently hoping they come up with the above scenario sooner or later.

Whatever you plan at 1C, I admire your work, I know how hard it is building something from scratch as I run my own business trying to pull off what I love so much... All the best to you guys there and keep it up.

I don't see how current tech, even if it's bug free and coded to a perfection of efficiency, could handle MMO scale interaction using CloD engine levels of fidelity. 100 players, sure... once the bugs get ironed out and we get an efficient dedicated server. 1000? No way. Look at the issues Eve has once you get 500+ people in a system shooting at each other with complex calcuations. But even 100 players at a time could give one heck of an experience with a bug-free CloD engine, especially if some of the ground units were also human piloted.

I'd be very happy if the product they were contemplating was more like the persistent battlefield used by the old Falcon 4. The 100 player 2 hour scenario you fly today gets tallied with all the other missions happening that day on the 1C 'MMO' servers, and you get a change in the lines the next day. It's not a single-instance MMO like Eve, but more like the multiple-instanced dungeons you get in most modern fantasy MMOs, with the outcome of the various technically distinct and unconnected instances (missions) having an overall effect on the Battle of (Britain | Moscow).

This would be immersive and fun, and doable with today's client, server, and bandwidth tech.

+100000 , completely agree with you!! (i hope the 1C´s guys take note of this, i think, this post is the resume of the desire of most of the community)

Regards

como viene siendo habitual, el deseo de la comunidad a 1c le importa un pimiento. Nos han usado como alpha tester de pago, y si han sacado el último parche no ha sido porque le importa la comunidad, sino simplemente por que a ellos les interesaba. Solo han querido los logs de las caidas al escritorio, ya que necesitan saber el porqué de las mismas, para lanzar el mmo mas o menos estable.

En fin, esperemos a ver, y démosle un enésimo voto de confianza, pero la cosa pinta muy mal.

I'm guessing they would never allow free servers to compete against their pay-to-play company servers.

MMO announcement is very bad news for offline players, as it implies maddox games have little intention to allot resources to fix the AI/Radio commands (and other aspects of the game valuable to offliners), since these are not common or relevant to the MMO, which I believe is the ultimate direction this series is taking.

well, thats pretty obvious unfortunately....
one and a half years after release, and the radio commands still not work,or are useless, and needed commands are not there....AI is worse than in 1946, even if you try to tweak them....
i was enjoying offline missions in 1946 as well...but cliffs almost forces one to fly online.it gets boring and annoying real fast if one plays offline missions.

Edit: 1946 current AI with 4.11.1 is very challenging though!if they really were interested in improving AI, i dont understand, why they dont talk to Team Daidalos....cant be that hard to implement 1946s AI into Cliffs.or at least use the same approach to it.

Who knows what the will do..

And frankly i am over all of it..this whole thing is becoming a yawn fest.

I really hope they work it out. but i think they are flogging a dead horse with this one.

If i am proven wrong, all good and well i will be the first to eat humble pie

but if they start charging for things like community severs with beefer this and that, then they will loose money because there will be only a few of you fanboys who will pay for it.

Every one i talked to about CLOD say they are looing faith in whats happening with this sim.

As I said if i am proven wrong (which i hope so) i will eat humble pie.

see you all on the flip side

O_Smiladon

indeed! we realy have to wait the announced official note about this MMO thing if it will REPLACE the actual known gametype or if it will be something additional. In the moment we are just in deep fog of infofragments IMO.

I personally would not be surprised if they say this 'Battle of Moskau' will be the MMO.....

I very much doubt that the MMO will replace the current theme-based releases. It'll probably run parallel to them. But:

The question you raised WRT the online mode of the releases vs the MMO environment is very valid. I hope the 1C management is not going to curtail the current possibilities for community-managed servers in favor of its own MMO project, but I'm afraid - given the past lack of gameplay elements in all MG releases - they will since I don't see them producing anything so captivating that people will pay for the MMO services. The numbers argument alone won't work IMO.

Of course it wont work, pretty much everyone knows it. Luthier is clutching at straws, trying to fend off the money men. The COD engine is poorly suited to a MMO, it barely handles what we have now, let alone trying to better the star of MMO's Wargaming.net, makers of "World of Tanks" who are now already in beta of "World of Airplanes".

Wargaming have years of experience of producing MMO's that work perfectly and are massively successful at what they do, the numbers of people paying and playing prove it.
Almost 200,000 playing most nights, and that's just the European server, add to that the US, Russian and Chinese servers and you have prob well over 500,000 people playing each day.

COD has about 60 max playing at one time, that's right 60!

You think COD is going to pull them away with the COD engine? dream on.

COD has failed in its development, its release and post release, BOM will also fail if handled the same way, the money men know it.
COD has been released now over 15 months and its still in a poor alpha state with almost nothing added and lots of problems.

Luthier has had to try something, and this is where we are now.

IL2 online MMO? it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Furbs ... with all due respect ... but are you really thinking this MMO idea is Luthier's? If so then ROFL. ;)
I think this is the "money men" - as you call them - who have produced that idea from the depths of their collective ideas hat. 1C even installed a dedicated "online services department" (not just for this MMO but in general) so I guess this is a corporation-wide trend to develop such products.

You have hit the nail on the head there furbs mate

Exactly.

Brought to you by the same folks that forced Steam on the project and helped delay development and the release too.

guys, I don't want to shoot your horses.. but I'm almost sure that when 1C & MG are talking about "MMO", they are only talking about the MMO payment model: a monthly fee everyone has to pay in order to can play the game. I'm pretty sure the game & gameplay will remain roughly the same (ie as "good" as it is atm).

Also, this doesn't sound so bad for offliners as you would think: due to the nature of the game (a ww2 sim) and its niche market, they HAVE to add some development for the AI in order to fill the persistent battlefield when the players are not there. you can't have a war happening around you with only a hundred of players online. that's what's missing atm in IL2CoD, and that's what will miss in this "online" version too.

If they really think about going into the MMO gameplay model, they're over: they were not able to pull this off as it is, going into the much more complicated MMO programming issues (on-fly server load balancing, etc, etc) would be like shooting themselves in their own foot..

thing is, no matter which way they'll go with this, War Thunder is already 1-2 years ahead of them with this: War Thunder IS playing like a MMO atm (battles are instanced dungeons, while the campaign mode is the persistent battlefield).. I see rough seas ahead for our dear IL2 series, unfortunately :(

Well mate, Luthier brought us "SpitGirl" and told us to "trust him on it" so all bets are off. :)

Who knows where the idea came from, were just guessing, but if COD had been a success, i dont think we would be talking about a MMO do you?

Which is why I wonder how 1C expects to draw anyone from community servers. MG wouldn't know good gameplay if it bit them in the hinder.

Not so fast. I remember Oleg talking about such ideas way back (when Il-2 was in its infancy). He probably tried to sell the idea of a new engine by mentioning such possibilities and the thought has stuck with the "money men". That's IMO the most likely scenario.

Yes that's true, i had forgot that. Its prob a mixture of all these things mate, oh to be a fly on the wall in the meetings. :grin:

With all the respect Furbs ...

There nothing that Maddox can made that can´t be bashed by you, in fact everything is bashed by you.

But ... bashing the SpitGirl ? ... man ... that´s very low :cry:

Me? bashing Spitgirl? Dont be so disgusting Blackadder!

I feel the same way, I wish that they would leave out those childish extras.

it was just a try to bring new blood, new players from outside the sim niche, to the game.

unfortunately, it was not so well done.. it wasn't even the best way.. there were so many good stories which could have been told..

you can't blame them for the spitgirl, as it haven't done any harm to the sim itself.

It's a shame that time and resources (photoshoot with real girl, etc) were wasted on a "feature" nobody needs and wants when the core game itself is in such a poor state.

Agreed 100%

Just about every game maker has included some sort of 'easter egg' in their games

Ill never forget MicroProse's Pacific Air War 1942. On the pacific map there was this 'extra' island.. And if you flew out to it.. You would see the boat from Gillgan's island and recive radio messages from the professor!

As a guy who does alot of programing (mostly embeded stuff and WSMR utilities) I know there are 'down times' where you are waiting for this or that and can not continue with what your doing until you recie this or that update from some other programer.. So instead of sitting on your hands you do 'other' things. This is where most if not all 'easter egg' stuff comes from

So to try and paint 1C as the first game maker to do this is just silly as all get out

Agreed 100%

it wasn't like they've spent weeks working on that :)

IEN Warbirds (Online Pay2Play) Godzilla:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/...er-wb111-3.gif

IEN Warbirds Gilligan's Island dinossaur

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/...ansisland4.jpg

:)

Sokol1

So, for the umpteenth time in this thread. Back on topic...

Fresh Google Translate (Yoda talk) from Sukhoi today (2012-06-04) by B6 (I changed "WT" to CloD below and put in some linefeeds):

Nice! I had given up on the Su-26... And what the heck is KFOR? SDK?

If it is the SDK and it has been canceled, that will be a pretty big blow I think...

Train you Yoda speak you have to my glass half empty friend :) You missed a "not" in a weird place :)

Paranoia reigns supreme lol....

DOH!

Would you have preferred Ginger or Maryanne.. or maybe Mrs. Howell.. hummm:cool:

I'll translate: CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM (be it good or bad). If the SDK is released, it will be up to the community to improve CloD.

Nothing new. And note that whilst my tone sounds harsh, it's the stone cold fact. CloD is being abandoned: no more work is being done on the Battle of Britain. At least BoB2 (which suffered similar problems as CloD did at the beginning) had an awesome campaign right from the start. For offline flyers this is pretty awful. Don't make a game if you're not passionate about it.

All this silly talk about a abandoned CloD.

CloD will be patched to work as announced in almost all aspects.

Some stuff announced with CloD will be fixed with the sequel, when merged with CloD the status announced on release will be reached.

So CloD isn't "abandoned" but still directly and indirectly worked on.

With the SDK third parties can and will fill the missing spaces for the BoB, and that is not only the "community", which mostly would really have to struggle to reach the detail level already present, but companies selling high quality content.

Well said

No, you're half wrong. It is only being worked on indirectly: nothing has been said to suggest there will be direct work done to CloD. No campaigns added, no skin-packs included: nada. Nothing. Zero. The indirect effects will hopefully benefit the sim, but this will only be graphical, and won't include terrain features (unless they really overhaul the use of speed-tree).

For a BoB fan like me, this is a pretty dire situation. It's been said a lot, but I waited a long time for this game and it is sad to see it left like this.
If you look at what has been added to the sim by the dev team, there isn't a lot at all. It's like buying a game and you can only complete 1/4 of it. The sequel might be better rounded, and have indirect impacts on the look of the former, but you won't officially be allowed to complete it.

Indeed, what kind of business model is it to let the community finish the job for you? I say roll on the SDK, but the community will be doing a lot of work to CloD which should have been done in the first place. The team have laid the foundations for something epic. They need to understand they have every potential to produce a series, like Il-2, which will be around for decades.

We will see if and when it happens.

And I will not buy BoM, if they haven't fixed: Radio comms, Brit's planes FM, Ju-88 Gyro, JU-87 dive siren and map bugs.

But that's just me.

Just more hysteria. If they post a picture of a eastern front game, the knee jerk reaction is they've canceled work on COD. If they mention making an MMO, the knee jerk reaction is they've canceled, the Sequels and are only going to work on the MMO.

The fact is the game engine was designed to do a number of different ventures. There is no way in hell they have stopped work on COD and Sequels for a hopeful pay day two years or more from now with an MMO. The other fact is there will be no MMO, or Sequels unless the the game engine is fixed.

Saying the development of COD has stopped is just plain stupid. Everything the development does to the fix the game engine, FM engine, DM engine, AI, Commands, Water, Clouds, Particle effects, Dynamic Weather system will effect COD.

They will not be building further campaigns for COD, but will fix the game engine and triggers so that it will be easier for third parties and modders to make very effective campaigns.

Sorry, I came of as a bit of a prick then. No offence meant.

robtek and philip.ed, do you work for 1C?? It´s amazing the way that you talk, with that security, i want to believe that at least you have somebody known who works into the project who telling you about 1C´s plans ....

Fair enough Chivas...but it is the lack of information that causes the hysteria, they should give some progression feed back weekly. "This week we accomplished............and now our attention is on......" :grin:...this should be in statement form, no questions/answer session

I don't know if that would even do it..

Based on this forum I think it is safe to say no amount of information will do the trick.. Because the one thing this forum has proved to be true about human nature is..

You can please some of the people some of the time..
All of the people some of the time..
Some of the people all of the time..
But you can never please all of the people all of the time!

You don't need to translate, its already done by someone else but you should get a new translator and/or comprehension explainer:

1) We Will continue to work on a patch for CloD and the Engine, in spite of the announcement and Development of the sequel

2) to Develop CloD, Creating New content, We do not plan to

3) The output of the Su-26 and KFOR OFFICIALLY Currently Has not Been canceled

It is new content for CoD that will not be developed. That doesn't mean new content has been abandoned because it was never planned or promised and therefore does not exist to be abandoned either in practice or in concept.

It is the new content that is necessary to make it a realistic simulation of the Battle of Britain. At the moment it is a channel scrap.

So OK, let's say the game benefits from engine updates and whatnot, will the radio commands sound any better? Will the RAF decals get any better? Will there be any more flyables? No, is the answer. Posts from Luthier reveal this. No more flyables have been planned: no additional content, as you point out, has been planned.

This is abandonment. As an offline user the game is barely what I expected. I fly BoB2 more for the enjoyment. Yes graphical changes are lovely, but for me not in the right places. Chivas, again you are selective in your approach. Graphical changes will not make the landscape any better. No nice hedgerows or anything. England and France aren't Russia.

I'm sorry Klem, but that argument doesn't hold water. The pre-conception up until months after release was that CloD would be the first in a series of expansions. With the team's dedication to accuracy (and my e-mails with Oleg show this) I had every inclination the team were going to deliver something unbeatable; I didn't think they'd release it, patch it so it worked (with one graphical rewrite and a few patches benefiting i and adding to the game) and then leave it. From their past attitude to achieving the best, it is abandonment of this aspect of the series. They're leaving the game to never improve it again. With your suggestion in mind, if you had a child but never promised to care for it, it wouldn't be abandonment if you walked out on it. That's ridiculous. When you attempt to produce something and don't see it finished, it is abandonment whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm happy for them to work on BoM, but their position would be a lot more credible if they had CloD polished to the gem it could be, with the relevant Sim-HQ second look review saying how far the sim has come along.

To be honest Klem, I think Philip is saying pretty much the same thing:

2) We do not plan to develop new content for CloD [rewritten for clarity]

is effectively the same as

"CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM"

People may disagree with the use of the word 'abandoned', but it is a fact that in game terms COD will be left in a pretty half-assed state. Although there will be general improvements to the engine with BOM that will also benefit COD, that will not be sufficient to turn COD into the full-fledged Battle of Britain simulation that many of us had been so excited about for years.

Without further dedicated content COD is destined to remain an empty shell as a Battle of Britain simulation. Unfortunately, over the last six months, I have been slowly coming to accept that the game that I was so excited about for so long is really not going to be realised. There is still the habit of checking in for latest news and word on the patch, but it doesn't mean that much to me any more because the underlying vision and potential as a Battle Of Britain sim/game/recreation will not be reached.

I continue to hope that some time in the future the community may finish the job that the devs couldn't (or wouldn't). Until that happens I don't see myself playing it much.

The series as a whole still has potential to be really special and I hope with a new theatre that they can finally get it together. I still get excited about the prospect of dynamic weather, etc, etc; but as an immersive, exciting recreation of a pilot's experience of the Battle of Britain COD is a dead duck.

And I do feel very let down and disappointed about that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My post written before I read Philip's latest. That we're both expressing nearly identical feelings says something I think. Something else - neither of us are your much caricatured, heard about the game last week and thought I'd give it a go, 2-week, rent-a-whine merchants either. Both of us were hugely excited by this game for a long time before it's release.

"Chivas, again you are selective in your approach. Graphical changes will not make the landscape any better. No nice hedgerows or anything. England and France aren't Russia."

I'm being selective?? Its you that being selective. I mentioned alot more than Graphical changes. As far as graphical changes go, there will be map making tools that should allow people to update the COD map, if that doesn't happen modders will change the map anyway with removal of trees and the addition of hedgerows. As far as aircraft go, and skins go there are enough aircraft to make historical missions for COD now, and you will be able to add other aircraft and skins as they become available thru the sequels, third parties, and modders.

IF the new IL-2 game engine is fixed. In a few years you will not recognize COD, just as BOB WOV slowly got fixed with the developers Merlin Engine, BDG group, and modders. The new IL-2 engine has the capability to far surpass anything in BOB WOV except for playing as the head of Luftwaffe or RAF which most people don't want to do anyway.

Abandoned the same way IL-2 Forgotten Battles was abandoned..

As in once they made the sequel (that included IL-2 Forgotten Battles) the support (patches, new content, free updates of planes, maps, etc) moved to the sequel.

Put another way 1C did not continue to provide support (patches, new content, free updates of planes, maps, etc) for IL-2 Forgotten Battles once the sequel to IL-2 Forgotten Battles came out.

Which is the method 1C has said they are going to use with CoD on several ocations..

Yet a hand full of people 'choose' to ignore that fact.

Some people don't understand the difference between content and engine. Cliffs of Dover uses a modular system, there is the core engine and the bob content at the moment, but it should not be the problem to add a BoM content (Map, Groundunits and Planes) to the core engine. Even if there is a MMO based on the CloD-engine, they can use the Map, Groundunits and Planes independent from it in a sequel. The only way to get the development cost of the CloD-engine back, is to publish new addition for it.

This thread is of amazingly low discipline. Yesterday i posted some fresh stuff from Sukhoi that actually contained some information that was interesting, like the fact thay the Su-26 is NOT forgotten or out of scope from CloD.

What happens? The same people just keep on their never ending yapping about stuff we have heard thousands of times or personal attacks... If someone comes to this thread to find out if there are any new tidbits of information from Russia they will never find it.

/mazex

Hm, what does KFOR mean?
Blacksix? or any other of our russian friends?

here it is:D

http://www.nato.int/kfor/

Didn't know they were planning that far in the future :D :D :D