Serious historians aren't politically biased in their judgements,the point you're making has become the scapegoat of petty polemics. I think that in the end facts are there,we can give these facts all the interpretations that we want,but they won't change. We're arguing over petty definitions here..

If you say so....bellend

Yes i love you too. :grin:

I don't think that this generalisation does you any good man.

Just because people have an opinion different than yours (and a well motivated one, I must add), this doesn't make them treacherous worms.

The danger of writing history is that you need to be careful not to follow at all costs the doctrine of "we won, we're the good ones".

Don't ever forget that if they won the war, they would be the good ones and the Allies would be the baddies..

Although I'm sure that this conversation actually happened somewhere at some point ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsNLbK8_rBY

Well youre the one trying to convince us that the terms 'victory' etc don't apply, newsflash.....you are the one making petty definitions, the war was lost by the germans = 'victory' for the allies, simple fact, youv'e spent too much time with those hairy shirted types irt seems.....here's a nice simple example for you, would you turn round to an American and tell him the independence day celebrations are invalid? because there is no such thing as victory? you really think an American isn't just going to cut you a new 'A'hole on the spot?.....

1. Hitler Conquers Europe - success!

2. Invasion of Britain - Fail (with serious Consequences)

3. Hitler invades Russia - mistake!

4. Hitler forms alliance/treaty with Japan - huge mistake.

5. Japan Attacks Pearl Harbour - (its all down hill from here on!)

6. Britain is an Aircraft carrier plonked right next door to Europe......Its end game due to 2 above.

7. A few High Ranking Officers see the outcome and attempt to assassinate Hitler......(another fail, but good idea)

The beginning of the end plays out.....


Whats to argue about?

Whoa there fella!......we were the 'good ones' at the start of it, the German claim to regaining lost territory ended at the French border, I don't recall France ever belonging to Germany (though I might add parts of it did belong to the Brittons....Brittany), I don't recal the world asking the Germans to rid the world of Jews either, whatever way you look at it Hitler was a massive mistake and the Germans jumped in with both feet.

oh and the clichet about me not being able to cope with a different oppinion is wearing a little thin, it's a typically weak argument used when theres little left in the inventory

Now that is a summary! ;)

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever read. The Nazis (and Germans who helped them) would have been the bad ones no matter who won the war.

Yup that's it, but end game is due to 2 and 3, because when Hitler haven't invaded the Soviet Union and all Troops he lost there, would have been in the Normandy 1944, maybe there would have been an second Dieppe Fiasco in a much larger Scale.
Horryfing thaught.