what about the mess that is the disclosure project ?

I really hate to harp on you Oldschool61, and respect your apparent strong faith in aliens, but when you come up with glaring logical fallacies all in one paragraph it's difficult to ignore.

You may want to hit the books a bit harder as there happens to be quite a few historically documented witnesses of the man "Jesus" and his cult than just the bible. Personally, I don't think he was the "son of God" but it doesn't mean he didn't exist.

But anyway, I find it amusing how you managed to miss that in your extensive "research" and yet are so willing to label UFO witnesses as credible and somehow make the leap of logic that alien visitations are more "true" because of this.

Be honest with yourself. You choose to believe in cow-punching, sky-dancing visitors from space simply on faith because of a preponderance of circumstantial second-hand stories by people you don't know, yet somehow are credible because of a badge or pilot's license.

The incredible irony here is that you are so quick to dismiss the experience of millions of people, from all walks of life including pilots and police, that claim personal experience of their God, yet will take perhaps thousands of UFO alien claims as somehow overwhelming evidence.

I'm fine with the fact you believe in alien flying saucers but from my perspective, and the standard of logical reasoning, it's just as likely there is a bearded man up there arbitrarily judging us as there are grey aliens with big eyes doing the same.

The Disclosure Project is just another strain of modern apocalypticism. It's the same phenomena seen in religious faiths, conspiracy communities (9/11, JFK, Illuminati etc), 2012 Mayan prophecies and extreme political movements.

'Disclosure' is the UFO community's equivalent of the 'unbinding of seals'; a time when all will be revealed, governments come clean, the scales will fall from our eyes, and the believers will be vindicated. And all this is going to happen any second now so be prepared! But in the meantime please consider buying our latest DVD or attending our convention where we reveal even more evidence of this nefarious cover up.

I mentioned him earlier but it's worth Googling Dr. Steven Greer. Among other lunacies attributable to him he used to go out into fields with a pair of flash-lights and wave them about. He was doing this, he claimed, in order to 'vector in' ET craft. Yes, it is as dumb as it sounds.

hehe indeed it is the best of bullpoo. What is the name of that mountain that folks sit under watching the lights ? ive seen a british program following the same nonsense, well it did feature danny dyer.

i remeber a long interview with clifford stone LOL it wasn't bad untill he announced he was prone to having invisable friends as a child LOL \o/

edit: heres the vid part 3, i cant bring myself to watch it again but its in 1 of the several parts.(part4@08:50) "he played with other children that nobody else could see, and for him that was normal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-rn3olxvhE

Another fabulous cliche i love with all this is the "special effects video editor captures alien spacecraft on video" LOL \o/ \o/ \o/

By Jove! We're talking serious woo with this Clifford Stone chap.

Underground bases, wormholes, 57 different species of aliens including reptilians, an alien chum called Corona....it never ends.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...typologies.htm

But, hey.....he was a Sergeant in the U.S. Army so it's probably true.

I, for one, welcome our new DRAGONWORM overlords.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...en_races00.htm

Oh, some of these are just too good!

Excerpts from the helpful index of Alien species....

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...en_races00.htm

So there!

Actually your mistaken about the historical evidence "documented witnesses" thats funny becasuse there are none. Debunking mythical christian deities has become my pastime since I dropped out of being a catholic sheeple. If one spends time with an open mind and see's the big picture with all the bad thinks religion has caused "hitler comes to mind" the more one see's that its all ancient mythology. There are several deities that have the nearly the same stories as Hesus. Horus , Mythra etc.. all born of a virgin, raised someone from dead etc hundreds of years earlier and same magical doings yet not one eyewitness.

Surely you do not mean this (if I am right in thinking that by "bearded man" you mean a conventional patriarchal deity)?

The existence of grey aliens with big eyes is an empirical issue - you assert (and I would agree) that there is no credible evidence for their existence. But without an assumption that life only evolved once in the universe there is surely a tiny possiblity that they are indeed there, watching and judging from behind their stealth fields, descending occasionally to probe the fundament of an unwary midwesterner.

By contrast, the existence or otherwise of a patriarchal deity is not an empirical matter of uncertain status. So probability does not come into it.

(Disclaimer: this comment should not be taken to be part of a religious discussion. It is a comment about what a religious discussion is).

So how can they be "equally likely"?

On another note it is surprising how long governments used to be able to keep secrets - take the Polish/UK cracking of the German Ultra code in WW2. Hundreds of people knew something about this and many a great deal, yet the general public and even professional military historians had no idea until sometime in the seventies, IIRC, when the records were released. In those days, when some elderly officer in a regimental tie sat you down and told you that you could never discuss your work even with your family, you did what you were told. Not sure how that would work now....

Sounds like you're arguing with a strawman. I would agree, personally, that religion is a construct of man in order to influence or control other people much like the bulk of alien mythology. Strange that you do not see the correlation there.

I'm just saying there are "witnesses" for Jesus the man not trying to imply that this would necessitate him being the son of a God. How many times do I have to say this?

Lastly, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone these days that believe in the mythical deities you mention so I doubt it's much of a life-calling to debunk them. I merely point out the irony in your alien religion (you believe in them out of faith not evidence since, well...there isn't any).

Other than that, I agree with you. ;-)

Sure there is. It's also remotely possible that Luthier is one of them and has to travel a couple hundred lightyears back to the office on Rigel, hence his understandable lack of communication. ;)

Seriously though, I don't look at it as impossible but simply very unlikely given the circumstances. Seems far more likely to me that it's a social and psychological phenomenon.

Because both religions have multitudes of faith-based believers with no evidence beyond internal or second-hand experience. Hell, isn't the notion of God essentially an "alien" being by definition? So just different flavours of the same ice cream. Sure, that makes sense and again it isn't impossible to hold a secret but like Lixma says, we're talking over 50 years here, multiple governments that can't agree on anything else, and one or multiple alien species visiting our planet wherever the hell they feel like it. I say, do the math.

People seem to have a need for the more dramatic story over the mundane, and answers for the cold finality of life and death. The UFO phenomenon seems to me to be a pseudo-scientific fill-in for the hole left behind from the decline of religion.

Until I get that alien paperclip or bumper sticker to run through some real scientific testing then I'll remain a skeptic with an open mind. After 30+ years of interest and fascination with the UFO phenomenon lets just say that it's had a more than reasonable chance to come up with something beyond some spooky documentaries and fuzzy pics to pass muster.